Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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6. To ask the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine the measures his Department is willing to take to safeguard the income of beef farmers in the event that the current negotiations with the meat processing industry break down without agreement on a sustainable and fair price for beef produce; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [42988/14]

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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The Minister heard me raising this issue with the Taoiseach when he was present. I am very concerned about how farmers are being treated by the cartels, as Deputy Martin Ferris noted, and by what the Minister just said about dealing with the issues on which we can make some progress. That is to throw in the towel before he even starts. I ask the Minister to outline what he will do to safeguard the beef industry, as it is not being protected. From the way he has been speaking in reply to Deputy Ferris, one would think the farmers had been at the meat plants every day for the last number of years.

They have not protested for the past ten or 15 years. They are there now because they have been driven to it. What is the Minister going to do to safeguard them and the industry?

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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We are doing many things to safeguard the industry. I have just been talking about that.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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Explain it.

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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For a start, this Government has prioritised the beef industry in each of the past three budgets. Next year alone in terms of the rural development programme, we will be putting about €73 million directly into the beef and suckler beef sectors. We have designed a rural development programme specifically to prioritise the beef sector to ensure it gets the supports it needs.

If one looks at the overall CAP policy in terms of direct payments, one is talking about at least €700 million per year of supports going into this sector. We are trying to look at where there is a dysfunction in the marketplace in the relationship between farmers and factories, which has been a very fractious relationship for many years. In other sectors within the food industry, particularly dairy, there is a very successful co-operative structure in place where farmers are directly involved in ownership structures and decision making around price and there is a much better functioning marketplace in terms of farmers understanding the market and what it can give them at any given time. There is a total lack of and breakdown in trust in the beef sector and it is my job to try to address that. It should have been addressed in the past but it was not addressed. That is why we are putting a lot of store on the producer organisation model which works in other parts of Europe and which will create a much more professional negotiating relationship on behalf of farmers with processors. There will be an equalisation of relationship on many of these discussions because at the moment, out of frustration, farming organisations feel they need to protest. We are trying to change that.

If the Deputy is asking me whether I can directly increase the price of beef, the answer is that no Minister in the EU or the Western world can do that without being taken to court or challenged by competition authorities. The market determines the price of beef primarily. Irish beef is at a European average in terms of prices and we have been above the European average over the past three or four years. Traditionally, up until four or five years ago, Irish beef would have been at about 90% of the European average. Beef prices have moved up. It is recognised that Irish beef is a premium product and we are looking at structural change that can ensure farmers feel they are getting a fair share of what the market has to offer. I will continue to work on that.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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The Minister does not recognise the elephant in the room. I know he cannot directly interfere but even though I was part of a previous Government, I know that successive Governments failed spectacularly to deal with the cartels in the beef industry and this Government is no different. The Minister talks about the Competition Authority and said that it wrote to him twice. It did because it operates to save the consumer and rightly so. It is not taking on the cartels. It has failed spectacularly to do so in the concrete and supermarket industries. The supermarket and beef industries singly or jointly have farmers in a bind. It is not that consumers are getting cheap cuts of beef and other products. We saw the charade that went on last year and that is still ongoing with vegetables in the big supermarkets, some of which were mentioned by the Minister this morning.

The Minister does not see the problem so he cannot solve it. It is like the Cork hurling team. It was playing well and getting points from all angles but when it came to the big games, it fell off the pitch. That is no criticism of Cork but it is a criticism of the Minister and his Minister of State, Deputy Tom Hayes. I do not know where the Minister of State is. The Minister and the Minister of State are not cutting the mustard. The beef industry cartels are doing what they want and are laughing at the farmers. The farmers have not been at the gates of the factories for 15 years. Based on what the Minister said, one would think they were there every year. They are not and have not been. They are very patient. They have been driven to this and something must happen, not nice cosy talks around a big table when the Minister will not deal with the problem.

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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With all due respect and not for the first time, the Deputy outlines what he thinks of as a big problem but gives no solutions to anything.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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Deal with the cartels.

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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First of all, one can only deal with something if it exists.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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It does exist.

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy's opinion on whether there is a cartel is only relevant if he can provide evidence to me or the Competition Authority that a cartel does operate. The Competition Authority has looked at this in the past and has deemed that no cartel exists. The authority has received evidence from farming organisations in recent years, has looked at it and has said that there is insufficient evidence. We publish beef prices every single week. When was the last time the Deputy looked at them?

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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Regularly - I happen to be involved in the industry.

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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As part of beef forum proposals, we publish beef prices in all factories at different grades on a beef price app every week so that we can see that there are different prices in different factories in different parts of the country at different times. If there is evidence around a cartel rather than a political accusation, let us hear it. In the meantime, let us solve the problems we actually can solve. I sit down with farming organisations to solve with them. The conversations I have with farming organisations are not around a cartel. They are around a series of other issues we are working out in the beef forum.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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That is not what they are telling me. I am very concerned because the Minister said the Competition Authority wrote to him. It raided the IFA offices some years ago when it was seen in a blaze of glory taking on the factories and checking out what was going on there. I am checking the prices the Government is publishing. The Competition Authority has failed spectacularly in other areas. We have seen it with the supermarkets and in the magnificent concrete industry we had which has literally been destroyed by cartels. If the Minister is seriously telling me that he does not believe there is a cartel, I do not think there is any future in Food Harvest 2020. There is no point in playing games with these talks - going in and getting a higher price and the big companies then change the goalposts with the grading. That is what is happening. The Minister mentions costs. The cost of wages has been halved. I am not being disingenuous or racist but it is mainly foreign nationals who are working for them at low wages so they have made huge savings there and they are also screwing the farmers. If the Minister cannot see a cartel, I worry for the future. Perhaps he should go full time into defence and let somebody else take over agriculture.

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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If the Deputy is so convinced a cartel exists, he might provide some evidence of it. That is all I have to say because every time I ask for it, nobody ever produces it.

Our beef industry operates in an international competitive environment. We sell product into about 70 different countries. We sell product right across Europe. The Deputy should not suggest for one minute that the processors in other parts of Europe with which our processors are competing are not also driving down costs as much as they can because they are doing so. When one exports 90% of the beef one produces - 90% of the beef we produce must find a market outside Ireland - one must operate in a cost-competitive environment. In that context, my job is to make sure that farmers are properly represented in that discussion, that they get a fair and transparent portion of the margin available from the marketplace and that they have professional negotiators negotiating on their behalf collectively in the future because that is where their power will be increased in that discussion and negotiation. We also need to look at the power of retailers and their influence on the overall market at a European level. This is happening at Commission level. Part of the solution to that is producer organisations.