Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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I welcome workers from the Rhatigan site, who are in the Visitors Gallery. These workers from the Kishoge community college site in Lucan have endured months of absolute hardship and poverty in all weathers. They have been locked out by their employer and are owed thousands of euro in wages.

We welcome the opportunity to bring this issue to the attention of the Minister for Education and Skills and to raise it in the Chamber. For some reason, J.J. Rhatigan has 50% of all contracts under way from the Department of Education and Skills. The bricklayers who are on strike, many of whom have been on strike since last May, received no pay until July when one of them, Stephen Gleeson, received €5,292 which he thought was his own pay for those months but was informed that it was the total payment for seven bricklayers. That works out at approximately €5 per hour, if the workers were to accept those conditions. That is below the minimum wage. These are skilled workers who must work in all weathers with the toll that takes on their bodies. Essentially, they were then pressured to become self-employed contractors, which is an increasing practice in the building industry. For years, this has been flagged as an issue in Government contracts and private contracts. It has also been flagged to the Department of Education and Skills, the current Minister and the previous Minister. The Construction Workers Alliance, for example, has reported on bogus subcontracting, which would push workers back a century where there would no pensions, benefits or safety net.

Despite many efforts, these workers have not had a full audience with the Minister to discuss this issue. One would imagine the massive loss of State revenue from black market and bogus practices would be of major interest. I do not have time to deal with all of the issues but the key demand of the workers is that funding is withheld from Rhatigan, pending full investigation into bogus subcontracting and possible black economy practices. We ask the Minister to give that commitment to these workers this evening.

Joe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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It is an absolute outrage that working men - it could be women in other circumstances - are forced to come to this House of Parliament, this Dáil, to ask the Government to implement its own writ in regard to how publicly-funded construction contracts, such as schools, hospitals and so on, should be managed to ensure that workers' rights and tax compliance are fully above board. What we have heard about the abuse of these workers is quite incredible. What is even more incredible are these practices of forcing construction workers, such as bricklayers and so on, to become bogus subcontractors, which they do not want to become. They want to be honest workers getting their pay, paying PAYE and their pension contributions. The system that operates means they are being forced, on pain of the sack, to essentially go into the realm of the black economy. That has been brought to the attention of the Minister's predecessor and very concrete details have been given but nothing of substance has been done to stop this. That is not good enough and it must stop, beginning this evening.

This is a grotesque abuse of workers, who must take strike action to protect the most basic rights. They have families, children and grandchildren and they have mortgages and rents to pay. They are skilled workers who over the past few months have, from dawn to dusk, been forced to be on the picket line and not on the building site earning for themselves sand their families. It is quite incredible that this should be allowed to go on.

A Minister departed this House forcibly in recent times because he did not listen to whistleblowers who were telling the truth. The Minister should beware of that. I want her to give a commitment to stop these payments to Rhatigan until a round-table meeting as well as a full investigation take place and these issues are sorted out.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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The workers at the centre of this dispute are in the Visitors Gallery. To be honest, the most fruitful thing that could come out of the short time we have is for the Minister to agree to meet those workers to hear for herself the story they have relayed to us which has left them out on the picket line outside the Kishoge site for the past 11 weeks.

What is going on there is an absolute scandal. Rhatigan has approximately 50% of the publicly-funded school building projects which this Government has trumpeted as a stimulus measure that will create employment. However, we have discovered that the company which got those contracts is treating workers in this way and is engaged in what looks to me like fraud. There is really no other way to describe it because there are certain rules and criteria about what a subcontractor is and the workers do not fit that. They are not self-employed subcontractors. They were taken on and employed by Rhatigans, which did not pay them for weeks, and then they were told they were subcontractors.

The money paid for the work of seven people over all those weeks amounts to an unbelievable €5 per hour, which is less than the minimum wage. This is absolutely outrageous. Is this what is going on with the jobs the Government claims it is creating with these stimulus measures on all of the other Rhatigan sites or on other publicly-funded sites?

If it is, that is an absolute outrage. What we and these workers want to hear is that the Minister will cease payments to Rhatigan until these matters are fully investigated. I appeal to the Minister to speak to those workers now. She will be shocked at what they have had to put up with. It is absolutely outrageous and we hope that the Minister will respond positively and tell us that she will take immediate and urgent action on this.

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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I thank the Deputies for raising this matter and want to outline to the House the measures I have put in place to ensure that contractors working on contracts awarded under the Department's school building programme, including Kishoge community school, Lucan, are compliant with tax and employment laws. I acknowledge the presence of the workers in the Visitors Gallery. I will meet building workers' unions soon. A date has been arranged for such a meeting.

As the Deputies are aware, in common with the rest of the public sector, all Department of Education and Skills capital works projects are tendered and awarded under the standard public works contracts as required by the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform and the Government contracts committee for construction, GCCC. The guidelines require a competitive process to be carried out in an open, objective and transparent manner to achieve best value for money in public procurement. Essential principles to be observed in conducting all procurement functions include non-discrimination, equal treatment, transparency, mutual recognition, proportionality, freedom to provide service and freedom of establishment. Any contractor wishing to tender for any building projects funded by my Department must sign a personal situation declaration under oath confirming they are in compliance with regulation 53 of SI 329 of 2006 which requires the contractor, among other things, to confirm that it has not been convicted for failing to fulfil an obligation to pay a social security contribution or to pay a tax or levy as required under a law of the country or territory.

A building contract is a complex arrangement of contractual relationships between the client, the main contractor, specialist subcontractors, domestic subcontractors, suppliers of materials, suppliers of plant etc. In general all subcontractors employed on education sector building projects are employed directly by the main contractor or indirectly by the main contractor through other subcontractors. It is a matter for all subcontractors to agree terms and conditions and a schedule of payments with the main contractor as their direct employer. I am keen to ensure building contractors operating legitimately are protected while those who seek to avoid their obligations under the terms of the public works contracts will be reported to the statutory agencies and penalised, where appropriate.

The Department appointed Contractors Administration Services, CAS, in April 2013 to conduct random audits on school building projects to verify compliance with the relevant pay and conditions clauses in the public works contracts. In tandem with the appointment of CAS, the Department also provided an online complaint system on its website to enable individuals to bring to the Department's attention cases where they are of the opinion that issues of non-compliance are taking place.

CAS continues to conduct audits on school and college building projects and has been appointed to carry out a full monitoring service for the duration of the contract on Kishoge community college, Lucan. Any allegations of non-compliance brought to the attention of my Department on any school building site will be audited by CAS. Any irregularities uncovered in terms of non-compliance with employment law, enforcement and prosecution fall under the remit of the National Employment Rights Authority and the Department will report any discrepancies found to it. If an audit uncovers any other matters of concern regarding tax compliance or social welfare fraud, such matters will be referred to either the Revenue Commissioners and-or the Department of Social Protection, as appropriate.

In respect of the ongoing dispute on the Kishoge community college site, Dublin and Dún Laoghaire Education and Training Board is the client-employer under the contract. While my Department is the funding authority for the project, it is not a party to the contract and, as such, my Department has had no direct dealings with the contractor regarding this particular project. However, I encourage all parties involved in the dispute to use the appropriate industrial relations channels to resolve this matter.

As the Deputies may also be aware, the Government has recently approved the preparation of legislation to provide for a revised legislative framework to replace the registered employment agreement system, and I have recently met the Minister of State at the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation, Deputy Gerald Nash, to discuss the progress on this new legislation. I also intend meeting unions representing construction workers shortly to discuss their views on the proposed new legislation. The new mechanism will allow unions and employers to apply to the Labour Court to initiate a review of pay, pensions and sick pay terms of workers in a particular sector and make recommendations to the Minister for the making of an order in these areas. The new mechanism will also provide for flexibility in response to changing economic circumstances or changes in the make-up of a sector. The new legislation is intended to provide certainty for employees as well as for businesses tendering for contracts. It will also help promote industrial peace in the crucial construction sector, and establish universal standards which will help prevent Irish firms being undercut in tendering for contracts.

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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How can the Minister, as a member of the Labour Party, have allowed this strike go on for the past few months? Several Deputies have already brought it to her attention. She will not give a commitment tonight to withhold funds from an employer. I know the Labour Party has fallen in recent years. I will give the Minister examples of the sums of money owed by this employer to these workers. One who worked for almost 14 weeks was paid €2,385. He is owed in excess of €10,000. Another who worked over ten weeks was paid €2,300 and is owed more than €7,208. I could give the Minister more figures if she wanted to listen to them.

Unfortunately, CAS does not have the teeth to follow up on what needs to be done. The Revenue Commissioners and the Department of Social Protection do not co-operate on these matters. There is only one way that Rhatigan and other developers could undercut other contractors, and that is by allowing black economy practices among its workers. Most work and operate from Northern Ireland so most of the money is lost from here. They sign on in the North and drive down to work here on many sites. In other cases, workers are from Cork, Limerick etc. How would it be viable for them to drive to Dublin every day to do that unless they were signing on the dole as well? One does not need to be a genius to work that out.

Joe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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The Minister had better get real on this issue because we are going to step up the legitimate pressure for justice for these workers and for others in similar situations. The Minister read a script that any Fine Gael Minister could have done just as well.

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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It was my script, not that of a Fine Gael Minister.

Joe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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There is no dispute about the fact these workers have been abused. This is rife. The Minister’s predecessor was told about it and neither he nor she has dealt with it. The Minister waves CAS in front of me exactly as it was waved in front of me when I exposed the industrial-scale exploitation by GAMA Construction in 2005. Some of the same arguments were made about the tendering process and the best and lowest tenderer getting it. Why would GAMA not get it when it went on with massive exploitation of workers? It undercut all around it. No wonder Rhatigan can do the same with these outrageous tactics, forcing workers into a situation of bogus subcontracting to deny them their proper wages, pension rights and security.

When the Minister replies, I do not want to hear about a meeting with construction workers unions. The Minister can meet the workers here and now. They will tell her to stop the payments to Rhatigan on this site and have a meeting in the next two days, during which the truth can be established. That would sort it out.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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There is no point in the Minister’s reading off the rulebook for public contracts when it is not working. If it was, these workers would not be out for 11 weeks and would not be in here today.

The Minister mentioned self-declaration. That is an absolute joke. The basis on which Rhatigan is able to undercut other bidders for these contracts is by playing fast and loose with the relevant contracts tax, RCT 1 system and classifying as subcontractors people who are not. Unbelievably, 40,000 of those working in construction in this country are being classified as subcontractors, which they are not. This is a rampant abuse of the subcontracting system by principal contractors who can then say it is nothing to do with them, it is the subcontractor. The living proof of that is the workers in the Visitors Gallery who were asked by Rhatigan to start working in good faith without being paid for five weeks. When they looked for their money, one was paid and told he was the subcontractor for the rest of them when it was clear that he was not a subcontractor. He is here and will tell the Minister this. Is the Minister going to do something about this or will she just read off rulebooks that do not work?

Will the Minister do something about this or will she read off rules and rulebooks that do not work? The workers engaged with CAS, which was frustrated by Rhatigan. CAS cannot get to the bottom of the matter because it does not have any teeth, as Deputy Coppinger said. Where are the inspections? Where is the enforcement? Is there any will on the part of the Government to expose, stop and clamp down on this abuse of the RCT 1 system by these contractors? I hope the Minister can indicate that such a will exists, and that the Government will start by meeting these workers and listening to their concerns. It should stop paying Rhatigan while these most serious allegations are in the air.

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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I have made it clear what the system is. I have clarified the way in which complaints are dealt with and contracts are awarded. The contract is not with me. I cannot stop paying the contract because it is not directly with me. I want to meet the unions. I will meet them soon. They are the representatives of the building workers. I will meet the various unions that represent the building workers in the very near future.

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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Will the Minister meet Unite?

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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I will meet their union representatives.

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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Unite.

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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I think that is the appropriate way for me to meet. My colleague, the Minister of State, Deputy Nash, is addressing the gap that exists at the moment as a result of the case that struck down the agreements that were in place. It has been alleged here that the Revenue Commissioners and the Department of Social Protection are not co-operating and that people are signing on in the North and travelling down here to work. They are serious allegations and I take them seriously.

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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Will the Minister investigate them?

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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I would like anybody who has any evidence of any of these things to inform the relevant authorities, because they are not anything that I can stand over.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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They are doing it.

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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The Minister should get the Tánaiste to ask the Department of Social Protection to do it.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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They are blue in the face from doing it.

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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If the Deputies have information, I suggest they should inform the relevant authorities. We are having audits carried out. We are referring any information to the relevant bodies that deal with these matters. I do not want to see any workers exploited. That is why we are reforming the legislation. Any allegations that are made will be seriously investigated. I will meet the unions shortly, and I want to see-----

Joe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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When is the Minister meeting Unite? Is Unite in the delegation?

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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I will meet the unions in accordance with an arrangement that will suit them and suit me. We have been in touch.

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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There is only one union here - the Unite union.

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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Building workers are represented by unions other than Unite.

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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No, these workers-----

John Halligan (Waterford, Independent)
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The Minister is not specifying Unite.

Joe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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Will the Minister meet Unite?

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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I have been requested-----

John Halligan (Waterford, Independent)
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Unite is representing these workers.

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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-----to meet Unite and other building representatives. I treat them all equally. I will be meeting them all.

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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It is taking too long.