Joe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

1. To ask the Taoiseach the Cabinet sub-committee meetings that were held in July, August and September 2014. [35180/14]

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I chaired a meeting of the Cabinet committee on justice reform on 24 July. On 18 September I chaired a meeting of the Cabinet committee on climate change and the green economy. On 29 September I chaired meetings of the following Cabinet committees: economic recovery and jobs; Construction 2020, housing, planning and mortgage arrears; social policy and public service reform; health; and Irish and the Gaeltacht. I also chaired two meetings of the Economic Management Council, one in July and one in September.

I should mention that in September, the Government made a number of changes to Cabinet committees and the current committees are: economic recovery and jobs; social policy and public service reform; European affairs; economic infrastructure and climate change; Irish and the Gaeltacht; health; justice reform; and Construction 2020, housing, planning and mortgage arrears.

Joe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The problem with questions to the Taoiseach is that the lead-in time before they are answered is so long that the answers to which the Taoiseach deliberately confines himself are out of date. For example, he could have taken the opportunity to apprise us of what Cabinet sub-committee meetings have taken place since the date in the question. In the past month we have heard about only one Cabinet sub-committee, the Economic Management Council. What precisely is the role of this council, made up of four members of the Government, the Taoiseach, the Tánaiste and the two finance Ministers? The national revolt by ordinary people against the water charges has finally brought home to the Government the reality of people’s anger, but the Government is no longer handling this issue. All we hear about is the Economic Management Council. In the unlamented ex-Stalinist states the old politburos did not have as much power apparently as the Economic Management Council has in this supposed Republic of Ireland.

Is the Taoiseach aware that members of the Government are now openly critical of what they see as a dictatorship within the Cabinet and a sidelining of the roles of other people? Before conducting her infamous political assassination in order to be Tánaiste, Deputy Burton was highly critical of this and the lack of democracy represented by the power wielded by the Economic Management Council. It seems as if for Deputy Burton democracy was simply to get herself elevated into the position because all we have heard since is absolute silence.

Would the Taoiseach accept this particular structure has meant the inner core of the Government has been and is even more out of touch with ordinary working class people, low and middle income earners and unemployed people than establishment Governments usually are and that the full Cabinet is out of touch as well, or it would, I hope, have advised him that this latest austerity tax on water would not be accepted and will be greeted by a massive boycott in January?

Does the Taoiseach accept the point that isolating all of these discussions to an inner cabal of four people inside the Cabinet is keeping him even more insulated from the very heartfelt feelings, anger and opposition, particularly to water charges, among ordinary people?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I hope the Deputy does not think I live in some kind of exclusive domain away from the people who elect us to this House. I was at a public meeting with 350 people in the Red Cow facility the other evening. I have to say it was very engaging and positive. I was in Tuam yesterday with 250 people. A broad range of issues, including the economy, rising confidence, job opportunities and Irish Water, were discussed.

I have said to the Deputy in this House on many occasions that if he wants me to change the system of Taoiseach's questions, I will do so. I will give the Deputy, as the leader of his group, and the leaders of the Fianna Fáil and Sinn Féin groups, the opportunity to table a Priority Question each week if they want to ask something that is of more urgent need from their perspectives. That offer has been refused on a number of occasions. As the Ceann Comhairle is aware, when these questions come up, many of them are outdated because the Cabinet committees have moved on. That is open to the Deputy all the time. When Cabinet committees have met, I can inform the leaders of the groups that they have met. We can put that in place for their information.

I was in this House during the 1980s, and indeed prior to that, when the structure of the Cabinet meant that its business took a very long time to complete. The Ceann Comhairle would have been a Minister of State in that Government. Some of those meetings went on for 14 or 15 hours in the absence of a structure to co-ordinate the decision-making process. Government is about making decisions at the end of the day, after proper Cabinet collegiality and discussion about them. The Government of which I was briefly a member between 1994 and 1997, under John Bruton as Taoiseach, had a facility of programme managers for each of the Ministers. They met to tease out where issues might be controversial or not agreed or whatever. That was a three-party Government. I think that system worked very well because issues that required political decisions were brought to the attention of the leaders of the parties. That meant there was an effective Cabinet response. I think meetings lasted between an hour and three quarters and two hours, on average.

Along with the then Tánaiste, Deputy Gilmore, I set up the Economic Management Council to streamline the way business is actually handled here. It is not for me to comment on the investigation that will take place with the banking inquiry. Clearly, the situation that arose before the bank guarantee and before the IMF arrived here was that the connection that should have been in place to bring really important issues to the fore did not exist. In this case, the Economic Management Council does not in any way replace the Cabinet. It is a measure of knowing the issues that are important, urgent and need to be addressed. They are addressed at the Economic Management Council, but only before they are more fully addressed at the Cabinet itself. It is a method of understanding important issues that are likely to cause problems, or require political analysis and decision, before they are brought to the Cabinet for decision.

The Economic Management Council, which has been given the status of a Cabinet sub-committee, has four members. It is open to this sub-committee to bring in other Ministers - they have attended in the past - to discuss issues that are important to them. It streamlines the work of the Government and allows the Cabinet - the members of the Government - to focus on areas to which they really need to give their attention. If there is a problem about any of the issues under discussion, they can be identified and the Cabinet can make its decision, or not as the case might be. It is not in any way some sort of secret organisation. It is merely a streamlining process for the bringing to the Cabinet of all the issues that require Cabinet decision. That is what it is about. It does not take over from the Cabinet. It does not take away from the Cabinet because that is a matter for all the members of the Government to sign off on collectively. It allows for issues that need to be teased out further to be identified, for the collective responses of members of the Cabinet to be received and for decisions to be made. That is all it is. It makes for more effective working of the Government itself.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Does Deputy Higgins have another supplementary question?

James Bannon (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I would be surprised if he did not.

Joe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes. I thought the Chair was going to call some of the others.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I have to deal with the Deputy first because this question is in his name.

Joe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Of course the Taoiseach lives in a bubble. He frequently has to have an escort of dozens of gardaí to get him in and out of venues.

Gabrielle McFadden (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Whose fault is that?

Joe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is unfortunate for the Taoiseach that he is so far removed from the feelings of the ordinary people he has angered so much with his austerity agenda and, in particular, his water tax. It is also unfortunate for the people because they do not want to be protesting on the streets. They have many other things to be doing, but they are on the streets because this is the last straw. Their protests will intensify if the Government persists with its approach by sending out water tax bills at the end of January and February. The massive boycott that the Government will face in such circumstances will put Captain Boycott in the shade. The Government thinks it can mollify the people by providing next week for a supposedly lower charge.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Can we get back to the Cabinet sub-committees?

Joe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

People know very well that it will increase inexorably as soon as the pressure is off. The Taoiseach should not fool himself in that regard. He can take it from me that I am speaking for the grassroots here.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I doubt that.

Joe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

On the role of the Economic Management Council, I would like to refer to the phone calls that were made in 2011 to the Taoiseach and allegedly to the Minister for Finance, Deputy Noonan, from the then president of the European Central Bank, Jean-Claude Trichet, who demanded absolutely that the Government would not burn some bondholders it was apparently about to burn. The Taoiseach capitulated without a Cabinet meeting to Mr. Trichet's threat that a financial bomb would go off in Dublin rather than in Frankfurt. Was it not the Economic Management Council that met in relation to that threat? Did the Minister for Finance not come in and change Government policy on his feet without reference to the Cabinet? What else is that, if not a dictatorship inside the Government?

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Deputy is straying from the question of Cabinet sub-committee meetings held in June, July and August when he talks about Mr. Trichet.

Joe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is the role of the-----

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Deputy's question relates to the numbers and dates of meetings. I have offered him an opportunity to table Priority Questions every week if he wants to raise a matter that is more urgent from his point of view. I will advise the leaders of the groups and the parties of the meetings that take place after they have taken place so they will have a more up-to-date record, and they can ask Priority Questions if they wish.

In regard to the Garda escort, I do not know how many functions I attended in Galway and Tuam yesterday, as I do in other places around the country. Sometimes people turn up to protest, which is perfectly legitimate in our country as a democracy. I understand that. It is good to listen to a different opinion. The sound might sometimes be a little raucous. I might not be able to pick out exactly what they are saying, although it sounds very vocal indeed and some of it is not normal language we might use in here.

Joe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

They are saying "no way - we won't pay".

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

People have a range of different agendas about which they want to protest. That is perfectly legitimate in our country. I do not like to see people attempting to block the public road when people are going about their work or intending to do their jobs.

I think even the Deputy understands and recognises that.

I walk to work myself in the morning and walk home at night, so it is not a case of having corridors of gardaí looking after me. Where I come from, Deputy Higgins, we are well able to look after ourselves, indeed.

Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Go on, Mayo.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Actually, if Deputy Higgins has time, I will bring him up to Captain Boycott's house and talk to the good Daly family there to understand the history of how that word came into the English language and what it meant for the people who lived there.

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Taoiseach should bring Mr. Denis O'Brien with him.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Economic Management Council is an important element of Government, in that the Taoiseach, the Tánaiste, the Minister for Finance and the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform meet regularly every week. One does not have the situation where two senior Ministers in the previous Government did not know that the IMF had landed on our shores. One does not have the situation in which the Governor of the Central Bank of Ireland had to go into a telephone kiosk in Frankfurt to ring the Irish nation and say they were already here. The reason for those events was because there was not the connection and internal information flow in the Government about these important matters.

Joe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Same as the meeting on burning the bondholders.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is why the information being held by the Ministers allows the Cabinet to make its decisions. That is the important element of the Economic Management Council. It is not a sidelining of the Cabinet. It is not a sort of secret organisation that makes decisions that are foisted on the people. It is merely a streamlining of the business of Government in a way that allows the Cabinet to do its work more effectively. From that point of view, it has saved a great deal of time, brought about a great deal of efficiency and keeps everybody informed very regularly about issues as they arise. They range from Ebola to beef to water to international events to the financial situation and whatever else. It is very important that Cabinet members be informed and up to date in order that, when they have to make decisions, they can make them.

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I note with interest that the Taoiseach is traversing the country. He could almost rival the former Taoiseach, Bertie Ahern, for the extent to which he is attending events throughout the country.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

He would be trotting after me.

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Taoiseach referred to his willingness to change the system of parliamentary questions as it applies to him. The Fianna Fáil group has not refused any proposal from the Government side of the House on how the system might be improved.

Many people view the Economic Management Council as a war council to deal with the emergency in which we found ourselves. Whatever the merits of that initiative, it was interesting that the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, Deputy White, raised questions last weekend about whether the EMC should continue. If one bears in mind the fact the Government has told us repeatedly we are moving out of the crisis, one wonders whether the life of the EMC is coming to an end.

I wish to ask about the Cabinet committee on health, which was responsible for a White Paper that added to the flaw in the Department of Health's budget last year. The Minister, Deputy Varadkar, announced recently a delay in compulsory health insurance and admitted to a crisis in the HSE budget. Was this issue raised at the Cabinet committee on health? We read in The Irish Timestoday that the Minister has written to the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Howlin, to say that he does not have the budget to equip the new children's hospital at St. James's Hospital. I am minded of the many facilities that have been developed-----

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am sorry, but the Deputy cannot stray too far.

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

If I could finish, I am minded of the many health facilities that have been developed but have not been opened because the money to equip or staff them has not been made available. Has this matter been considered by the Cabinet committee on health? Given that the Taoiseach announced 12 months ago that he was assuming personal oversight of the health budget, does he accept any responsibility for its current overrun of €600 million?

Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Previously, the Taoiseach stated that Cabinet sub-committees were a method of timelining and forcing conclusions on issues that had existed for a long time. In defence of these committees today, he asserted they made for more effective government. Obviously, we could not object to sub-committees as a means to that end, but having competent members on them should be a prerequisite.

The Taoiseach has stated that the purpose of the committees is to ensure priorities are addressed, but I will raise three recent issues. The Government would not listen to what Deputies were saying about medical cards or about the scandals in the justice area which led to the resignation of the Garda Commissioner and the Minister for Justice and Equality. The Government guillotined debate on water charges and forced the legislation through, leading to an unprecedented walkout by Opposition parties and Independent Deputies. How have these committees brought about what the Taoiseach claims they have brought about, namely, more effective Government?

Mr. Frank Flannery, a senior strategist for the Taoiseach's party, has castigated the Government's performance. The former Minister of State, Deputy O'Dowd, has said he discussed with the Taoiseach the issues about which he had concerns but that he could not get them sorted. As we have just been reminded, the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, Deputy White, stated at the weekend that the Government should get rid of the EMC. If the test is not the number of meetings held but the initiatives resulting, the solutions found or the way committees have crunched down, so to speak, does the Taoiseach not agree that the Government and, therefore, its approach have failed miserably to address issues?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Deputy Ó Fearghaíl mentioned that his party had not refused any offer of a change. I made an offer to Deputy Martin on a number of occasions to regroup the questions, whether they be about Northern Ireland, Europe, the United States or other issues, but sometimes, as Deputy Ó Fearghaíl knows, they overlap. If one is dealing with a Northern Ireland question, it can be about when I met the British Prime Minister and whether we discussed this, that or whatever, and that has implications for Europe. That is something we can do, but I did say as well, and I repeat the offer today, that if people in, for instance, Fianna Fáil, Sinn Féin or the Technical Group, such as Deputy Higgins, would prefer to table one priority question each week on an issue that they think is more important for them, I am quite happy to deal with that. In a way, it is kind of not relevant to answer questions about meetings I had with the Lebanese Prime Minister four months ago because of the way they are grouped together. I understand that. Maybe that might be a more efficient way of doing things.

The EMC is not going to come to an end. We will continue with it for the lifetime of the Government. It has been a very effective way of informing Ministers and of knowing the issues as they arise in areas of Government. As Deputy Ó Fearghaíl will be aware, there is also the structure of early warning systems for Ministers in cases where an issue that is likely to arise could become important, controversial or whatever. Most of them actually are controversial. Secretaries General and their Ministers would advise, in my own case the Office of the Taoiseach, that here was an issue that was likely to arise in the next two or three weeks. That is a matter that could be discussed by the Cabinet sub-committee that is relevant to that and I could speak to the Minister directly. Far from sidelining Cabinet, the Economic Management Council, is a very good way of bringing issues right to the centre where the Cabinet will make its decision collectively.

Deputy Adams mentioned some Deputies and the Minister, Deputy White, made a good contribution at the previous Economic Management Council meeting because he has responsibilities in some of those areas and I believe he found it to be effective. I saw some reports of comments by Deputies and Ministers but it is a good way of doing business efficiently, of getting it through and bringing it to the Cabinet, where one tells all the members what are the issues that must be discussed and analysed and on which they must make decisions to move on. It does not lead to a situation in which one has meetings that extend to double digits in terms of hours.

The brief for the national children's hospital was pioneered by the Minister, Deputy Reilly, when he was Minister for Health. The Government put up €200 million from the sale of the national lottery and that added to the existing €450 million in Exchequer funding. Current estimates are that the core hospital at St. James's, as well as the two satellite centres at Connolly Hospital Blanchardstown and Tallaght hospital, will be delivered within that allocation. Moreover, this includes the provision for inflation, VAT and contingencies. As the Minister for Health, Deputy Varadkar, has pointed out already, this figure does not include equipment or information and communications technology, ICT, which can be purchased, licensed or leased separately. All these matters are under constant examination to ensure this building, a children's hospital for the children of the island of Ireland, will be equipped to world-class standards. Obviously, the important thing is to get the design brief, get the members in place and get that planning under way.

As Members are aware, if one decides to purchase ICT in 2014, it evolves so rapidly and changes so quickly that what might be deemed to be progressive today is obsolete tomorrow. Consequently, costs must be reviewed and validated as the ICT infrastructure and platforms are defined and agreed. Clearly, there is also a targeting of philanthropic sources and commercial funding streams for supporting certain elements of the project for the children's hospital. This could include car parking and academic and research facilities. Estimates will be reviewed and refined as matters move on. The project brief affirms the intent to provide the most modern, the most contemporary and the best practice facilities in this hospital. Why would it not, as it will be there for many years? That design team is in place, having been put in place by the Minister at the time, Deputy Reilly, and the aim is to make the planning application next year in June 2015. Subject to that planning, the project will be on site at all three locations, that is, at the main hospital on the St. James's campus and both satellite centres at Tallaght and Connolly hospitals, in January 2016. Commissioning for the main hospital is targeted to begin at the end of 2018 and transition of services into the spring of 2019. There is a long way to go on that and a lot of readjustment of what is the most up-to-date evolving equipment and on how to make arrangements to provide for that, in order that people will have the very best equipment in the hospitals we can find.

Clearly, the budget is over for 2015. It was the first budget for seven years in which there were no tax increases, no cuts in services and in which allocations are the way they have been. Obviously, the Government wishes to deal with the urgent priorities in each of these Departments and the Cabinet sub-committees play their part by bringing to the fore issues both for Ministers and for public servants. One can ask why something has not been dealt with or whether an issue has arisen because a particular matter has not been resolved. Evidence of this is the Action Plan for Jobs, which is overseen by my Department and the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation, and which has brought about a progressive system of clearing away red tape, administrative blockages and things that are only in the way of people doing business effectively. From that point of view, I tend to hold the Cabinet sub-committee meetings on one Monday each month from 8 a.m. right through. Given the small number of committees, the practice used to be that they would meet irregularly and it was not consistent. Therefore, matters began to be delayed for long periods. I find it to be an effective way of providing input to the Cabinet in order that Ministers can then come to the Cabinet and decisions can be formal and can be announced and dealt with.