Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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85. To ask the Minister for Social Protection if her Department is insisting that community employment supervisors must retire at the age of 66, regardless of their ability to continue in the post; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [39795/14]

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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Why does the Minister insist that community employment, CE, scheme supervisors must retire when they reach the age of 66, regardless of their ability and their willingness to continue in their post, especially in light of the Department's decision not to put in place a pension for those same employees as instructed by the Labour Court in 2008? The case arose last week of Elizabeth McAuliffe, a CE supervisor in Limerick, for 20 years who was forced to retire, despite the fact that she wishes to continue to work and that the scheme will also continue. Is the Minister aware that there is no legal retirement age in the State and that both in the UK and in the US, compulsory retirement age has been outlawed?

The Minister of State's party colleague, Deputy Anne Ferris, has put forward legislation to outlaw such a practice in this State.

Kevin Humphreys (Dublin South East, Labour)
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I thank the Deputy. The Department does not provide funding for any participant or supervisor who has reached the State pension age. This has been Government policy since community employment commenced in April 1994 as a working age specific active labour market intervention. The details of the employment contract issued by the sponsoring organisation are a matter between the CE sponsor, as the employer, and the supervisor, as the employee. The CE procedures manual outlines the conditions under which the Department will fund the sponsoring organisation for the CE positions.

The Department advises the sponsoring organisation to include retirement arrangements in any contractual agreements with employees of the scheme, including the CE supervisor, in order that all parties are aware of the conditions under which funding is provided. Where a sponsor has other financial resources and wishes to continue to retain the employment of a supervisor who has reached State pension age, the Department has no role with such arrangements.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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I do not know who wrote the reply for the Minister of State. He is well aware that no CE scheme or very few CE schemes have other financial resources and would not be in a position to continue to pay a CE supervisor. In that instance, the CE supervisor would probably not be acknowledged because the CE scheme was not set up in that way. It is the case that the community employment scheme and the Department have never properly acknowledged the role of CE supervisors and they will not pay their pensions as recommended by the Labour Court in 2008. When will the Department begin paying those pensions? Is the Minister of State aware that there is a possibility that a number of CE supervisors are being forced to retire, despite the fact that their contracts do not stipulate a retirement age and that they will be taking cases for unfair dismissal? If the CE schemes had the financial means to do so, they would probably be willing to pay them, but they should not have to do so because the role of the Department should be to ensure those people are paid in full and that their pension rights are recognised. In the case where a pension age is not stipulated in the contract, the Department has a duty to ensure they are allowed to continue working.

Kevin Humphreys (Dublin South East, Labour)
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I am not fully aware of the cases to which the Deputy refers, but I suggest we could have that discussion at a later stage.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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We have had that discussion here but there has been no action.

Kevin Humphreys (Dublin South East, Labour)
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Does the Deputy wish to hear my reply or does he wish to have a conversation with himself?

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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I refer the Minister of State to the 2008 Labour Court recommendation. The Minister of State is in government, not me.

Kevin Humphreys (Dublin South East, Labour)
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I acknowledge the work of the CE schemes in all parts of the country. In my reply to Deputy Joe Higgins I said I have made it my business over the past three months to visit CE schemes throughout the country. I acknowledge the work of CE workers, CE supervisors and sponsoring agencies. I refer in particular to a CE scheme I visited where the supervisor had achieved a 64% rate for the number of people returning to employment. This is highly commendable. We hope to work with the supervisors to achieve similar rates throughout the country.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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I hope that supervisor got a bonus.

Kevin Humphreys (Dublin South East, Labour)
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The contract of employment is with the sponsoring group and the sponsors have been issued with guidelines as to what the contract should contain. If sponsoring groups are in a position to retain supervisors beyond the pensionable date, they are quite entitled to do so.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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The Minister of State has not answered my question. The Department sets the terms and conditions. In the case to which I refer, the woman was in employment for 20 years. The guidelines issued by the Department have changed several times since then but no one bothered to look at her contract. The sponsoring organisation is now open to a charge of unfair dismissal because the Department did not take the proper action and did not recognise the fact she should have had a proper pension. One of the reasons supervisors wish to continue in some cases is that their pensions will be too low on which to survive.

Kevin Humphreys (Dublin South East, Labour)
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The supervisors are employees under the individual CE sponsored organisation. Under the terms of the employment Acts from 1994 to 2001 an employer is legally obliged to provide certain information in written form, including what Deputy Ó Snodaigh has outlined. The sponsored groups were responsible for providing the information to the supervisors as they came on board. The Deputy knows as well as I do that some sponsoring groups have the resources to retain their supervisors, but CE is an activation measure and when people reach retirement age it provides an opportunity for other people to come through the scheme. There is a logic to it. I know individuals are very highly committed to the schemes and-----

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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It is an activation measure for the participants not the supervisors.