Lucinda Creighton (Dublin South East, Independent)
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I thank the Minister for taking the time to come before the House and the Ceann Comhairle for selecting the topic. I raise the need to preserve parental choice for secondary schools. As a result of the sustained reduction in funding this Government has introduced, more and more fee-paying schools are being forced to enter the free education system, which is a worrying trend. By and large, parents who send their children to fee-paying schools are not the elite or multi-millionaires the media would often have us believe, but rather, parents who choose to make sacrifices to give their children the best possible chance in life. They opt out of extra holidays, or any holidays. They work hard, pay taxes and save the State a large amount of money.

It is interesting and worrying to note that three long-established fee-paying schools entered the free education system this year, Gormanstown College in Meath, Newtown School in Waterford and the oldest school in the country, St. Patrick's Cathedral Grammar School, which happens to be in my constituency. This follows similar withdrawals by Kilkenny College and Wilson's Hospital School in Multyfarnham. A number of others have indicated that they, too, may be forced to leave the fee-paying system and join the public system. This is at huge cost to the State. The cost of educating children is not totally borne by parents but is also an obligation on the State. However, the annual cost of a pupil's education in a fee-paying school is €3,710 compared to €8,900 in a free education school.

An independent report produced in recent months shows that should the 25,600 students who are currently in fee-paying schools be forced into the free education system, it would cost the State an additional €133 million per year. There is a major cost implication for the State.

I am also concerned about the education (admission to school) Bill, which Deputy Mathews raised already on the Order of Business, but perhaps I will get a chance to raise it in a moment.

Peter Mathews (Dublin South, Independent)
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I underline what Deputy Creighton has said. The cost of a pupil in a fee-paying school is €3,710 compared to €8,900 in a free-education school. On the basis that there are 25,600 students currently being educated in fee-charging schools, the transfer over to full reliance on the State would cost the citizens of Ireland a staggering €133 million per year.

Fairness in education implies two levels, the first of which is that all children get a secondary education. The second is that if parents wish to support, in addition to that fairness of education in the secondary school classroom, additional elements such as sports and extra activities, and if they are willing to pay for them from their after-taxed income, that should be allowed. It is a choice of theirs. They set aside after-tax earnings which they could spend on themselves. It is wrong to shoehorn parents away from making that valid preference. Rather than immediate consumption, they set aside consumption in order to educate more widely and develop their children, in sports or in other ways. It is not fair to put the focus on the private fee-paying schools. It is not equitable. Even the teacher-pupil ratios in those schools have been disimproving as a result of the shoehorning.

There are other areas of economic benefit that the private schools provide. They have non-State-funded teachers. They have secretarial and administrative staff who are paid. The care-taking personnel receive income, as do catering staff, cleaners, medical and sick-bay staff, maintenance and grounds-keepers, financial support staff, bursars, night staff in boarding schools and security staff. All of these involve extra income being generated, extra families being fed and extra staff being employed in the economy as a result of the choice by some parents to bolster the education that should be equally and fairly provided to the children of the State.

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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I thank Deputies Creighton and Mathews for the opportunity to address this issue and to outline for the House the position on post-primary education.

The Deputies will be aware of the challenging economic environment that forms the backdrop to all decisions relating to the public finances. While the Government has tried to protect front-line services, difficult choices had to be made to identify savings across all Departments.

Achieving savings in education is particularly difficult given the significant increases in the overall number of pupils in our schools. Teacher allocations to all second level schools are approved annually by my Department in accordance with established rules based on recognised pupil enrolment. The criteria for the allocation of posts are communicated to the management of schools annually and are available on the Department website. In accordance with these rules, each school management authority is required to organise its subject options within the limit of its approved teacher allocation.

At post-primary level and in accordance with existing arrangements, where a school management authority is unable to meet its curricular commitments within its approved allocation, my Department considers applications for additional short-term support, that is, curricular concessions.

The allocation process also includes an appeals mechanism under which schools can appeal against the allocation due to them under the staffing schedules. The appeal procedures are set out in the published staffing arrangements. The appeals board operates independently of the Department and its decision is final.

The deployment of teaching staff in the school, the range of subjects offered and, ultimately, the quality of teaching and learning are in the first instance a matter for the school management authorities. The Government's focus in recent years has been on operating a budgetary programme that is designed to return the Government finances to a sustainable basis. This included budget decisions which brought guidance provision within the staffing schedule allocation for post-primary schools and an adjustment to the ratio for fee-paying schools.

I acknowledge that bringing guidance within quota is challenging for schools. However, the alternative was to adjust the pupil-teacher ratio staffing allocations. The budget decision sheltered the impact for all DEIS post-primary schools by improving their standard staffing allocations.

The budgetary decision to increase the pupil-teacher ratio for fee-charging schools reflects the fact that fee-charging schools have resources, as Deputy Matthews stated, through fees charged, to employ teachers privately, an option that is not available to schools in the free education scheme.

The Government recognises the importance of ensuring that students from a Protestant background can attend a school that reflects their denominational ethos, while at the same time ensuring that funding arrangements are in accordance with the provisions of the Constitution.

The Department is open to having discussions with any fee-charging school which may be considering how best to continue to provide education to its pupils. Where such discussions occur, they will be conducted on a confidential basis. Five fee-charging schools have joined the free education scheme since the school year 2010-11.

Since 2009, cumulative savings of over €25 million have been realised as a result of the changes to the staffing of fee-charging schools. That sum significantly outweighs any additional costs incurred as a result of schools entering the free scheme, and has also allowed for a much greater protection of free schools than would otherwise have been possible. On the financial argument, the savings have outweighed the costs to which the Deputies referred in relation to the schools that have come into the free scheme.

It has been the overarching policy of education in Ireland since the time of former Minister, the late Donogh O'Malley, who introduced free education in the 1960s, that free post-primary education should be available to parents while acknowledging that schools are free to choose to stay out of that scheme. The intention is that parents should have access to post-primary education that is free to their children. There were difficult decisions that had to be made in recent years and the changes that were made with regard to fee-paying schools were made in the context of a budgetary position which, I note, Deputy Creighton raised previously on the Order of Business with regard to the Fiscal Advisory Council. We had to cut public spending to fit in with our commitments and this decision was part of that.

Lucinda Creighton (Dublin South East, Independent)
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I thank the Minister. I appreciate that she is operating in difficult and constrained circumstances but it is a little disingenuous, perhaps not on her part but on that of her officials, to suggest that the €25 million somehow is directly connected to the cuts that have been specifically targeted at fee-paying schools, which, of course, is not the case. These cuts are across the education sector and that is somewhat misleading.

It is interesting that the Minister reflects on the fact that fee-charging schools have resources through fees charged to employ additional teachers, etc. This is the issue. They are being driven out of the fee-paying sector and into the free education scheme, which puts additional pressures on the public purse.

I fully subscribe to the vision of the late Donogh O'Malley. He was a visionary and his vision still has its imprint on Irish education. However, the essential point, which in a sense is reflected in the Constitution as well, is that every child deserves the same support from the State. Once every child is treated equally and every child is given the same degree of access and the same support by the State, which is the principle of universality, above and beyond that support by the State it is the choice of parents. Some parents choose to spend their additional disposable income on ski holidays or other options in terms of personal expenditure and some make significant sacrifices and forgo everything to send their children to a fee-paying school in order to further their child's education, and that choice is something that is now being diminished because of the choices of the Government. That is regrettable.

I look forward to when the Bill on schools admission policy comes before the House. Unfortunately, I will not have the opportunity to raise it now.

Peter Mathews (Dublin South, Independent)
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I again thank the Minister for being present and for her reply. I agree with Deputy Creighton that the Minister's officials are very selective in what they choose to present her with. If it was discovered that children in any type of school, be it voluntary or fee paying, were doing additional subjects paid for out of their parent’s post-income tax income, it would be absurd if it was decided it would be better to change the ratio of teachers to pupils in the schools where those children happened to do music, dancing or sports outside of the school. Deputy Creighton is correct that one should provide a universally fair system of support on the teaching support salaries. The point is that anything extra that parents decide through the management of the school or through their own support of the school management is additional and should not be penalised.

It was said the savings would amount to €25 million. What about all the caretaking staff, catering staff and cleaning staff that would have to be let go? Millions of euro are involved in that respect. The sum of €25 million is most selective. I blink and pinch myself because I do not believe it. Officials should not do that. It is more than misleading; it is totally disingenuous.

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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The schools that have come into the free scheme have made the decision themselves. There are a relatively small number of fee-paying schools. It is not the case that choice is being entirely taken away. I hope all schools would have access to sport and music for students. We want to provide equality of opportunity for all children. That is why we have delivering equality of opportunity in schools, DEIS, for example, where we favour certain schools because they cater for children with disadvantaged backgrounds. I do not agree with Deputy Mathews, as I do not think the argument is as straightforward or simple as the one put forward by him.

I visited one of the schools that has come into the free scheme recently and the number of students has considerably increased. The school is now able to cater for a larger number of parents who wish to send their children to this school because now they do not have to pay fees any more and they can afford to send their children there when they could not afford to send them there previously.

Concern was also expressed about the admissions to school Bill. I intend to provide plenty of opportunity for discussion. I reassure Deputies I have not closed my mind on any issue.