Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I want to ask the Taoiseach a number of questions concerning the appointment of Mr. McNulty to the board of the Irish Museum of Modern Art by the Minister for Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht, Deputy Heather Humphreys. Yesterday, the Taoiseach's attempt in the Dáil to bring clarity to the matter did not succeed and has raised far more questions than answers. There has been a lack of clarity. To paraphrase what has emerged, it seems that Mr. McNulty in his interview with the Taoiseach said he was interested in becoming a member of a cultural body. He was interviewed by the Taoiseach for the Seanad nomination and, mysteriously, Fine Gael officials became aware of his desire to serve on such a body. They then sent a memo or CV over to the Minister, Deputy Heather Humphreys, saying "Put him on a cultural body". She then, in great haste, decided to put him on the board of IMMA with another person. The entire process of nominating him to the Seanad, as a Fine Gael process, was completely and absolutely separate to the process of his nomination to the board of the Irish Museum of Modern Art. That is what we have heard at this stage.

I do not know whether the Taoiseach was aware that the Minister, Deputy Heather Humphreys, was asked by Fine Gael officials or was going to appoint Mr. McNulty to the board of IMMA. That brings into question the Minister's role. Why will she not do interviews on this matter? Why will she not come before the House and give a comprehensive statement on it? When did she receive the request from Fine Gael officials to appoint him to the board of IMMA? Who mandated them to make that request of the Taoiseach? Why did she act with such haste in increasing the size of the board to facilitate his appointment, rather than just wait for a casual vacancy to arise and then fill it in the normal way?

There is a range of questions but I only want to ask the Taoiseach one and I would appreciate a very clear answer. I asked it yesterday, as did Deputy Adams, but we did not get a clear answer. Did the Taoiseach, or somebody on his behalf in Government Buildings, ask Fine Gael officials to tell the Minister, Deputy Heather Humphreys, to appoint Mr. McNulty to a cultural body? Yes or no?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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My job is to lead a Government that is sorting out our finances and get our country turned around. I would have thought the Deputy might want to talk about the live register figures this morning but he does not.

Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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We will come to that.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I have listened to the Deputy's comments and he made three points. First, he mentioned about asking a Minister to make an appointment. Second, he mentioned telling a Minister to make an appointment and, third, he said that a candidate had expressed an interest in being appointed. I have dealt with all of this and I have accepted responsibility. I have apologised for the entire process. I am going to fix that and oversee it.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I asked the Taoiseach one question.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I will tell Deputy Martin one thing now. I am actually sick and tired of a position where we have had a flawed process for years in this country. Because of the flaw in the process, people who want to give service can be labelled as lackeys, hacks or cronies.

This is the forum of the Dáil. I heard a name on national radio this morning of a young man appointed to a State board who was deemed to be eligible on the basis of having worked in a bar or having supervised a pool room. I know the young man in question.

Michael Healy-Rae (Kerry South, Independent)
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That is why he was appointed.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I saw him grow from a primary school lad to the adult he is now. That young man has a B.Sc. honours degree as well as an M.A. in innovation and management. He did his stint in Brussels. As many other students did, he worked in a bar for the summer.

A Deputy:

What about answering the question?

Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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He is talking down the clock.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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He applied for a job with a multinational.

Willie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
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We never said anything about him.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I want to make the point. I am going to make the point. He applied for a job in a multinational with cloud computing. There were 5,000 applications and less than ten were accepted of which his was one. The point I am going to make to Deputy Martin is one that he will appreciate. He wanted to do his public duty and give service but because the firm does not give him time off, he took ten days' holidays to attend to his public service duty. Yet he is branded as a crony and a lackey, which is wrong. I am sick of that situation and now we are going to change it. From 1 November, this will not apply any more.

In his opening question, Deputy Martin made another point. When I interviewed John McNulty - who was very forthright again this morning on radio and is an excellent candidate - I never discussed anything with him about cultural boards or any other boards. I discussed with him his potential as a Senator to do a political job because this was a political seat for the Fine Gael Party, which arose from the election of Deirdre Clune to the European Parliament. That assertion was made yesterday evening as well. John McNulty never discussed with me anything to do with boards, culture or anything else. We discussed the operation of the Seanad and his capacity to be a good Senator and serve in the area he comes from.

Willie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
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And his qualifications?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The answer to that question is that there was no instruction given to the Minister for Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht. She herself read his qualifications and credentials and appointed him, as she was entitled to do, as a member of the board.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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It was the tooth fairy.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Order.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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As John McNulty said himself, he did not know at the time he was appointed whether or not he was going to be a candidate for the Seanad.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The boards are being stuffed.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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He was a person who was being considered for nomination but he did not know. As far as I am concerned, we need to move on. This was a flawed process.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I tell you lads, if you want to have a long debate sometime over what happened over the years we can do that but it is not for today. This process has been flawed and will now be fixed. I want to see a situation where people in our country, wherever they come from, who want to serve on boards and do public duty can do so without being branded because of the flawed process. They should be allowed to do their job so we will fix that and make the process absolutely transparent and accountable with an external examination of credentials. We will move on from there.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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We must have order for those asking questions as well as for the replies.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I will quote what the Taoiseach said in his reply to me yesterday. He said: "During the course of the process of validating his eligibility, Mr. McNulty expressed a wish to serve on a cultural body because he was intending to serve, if elected, to the Cultural and Educational Panel." A second ago, the Taoiseach flatly contradicted what he said yesterday. He said then that he had no conversation good, bad or indifferent with Mr. McNulty in relation to a cultural body.

A Deputy:

Porkies.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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In my opening remarks to the Taoiseach I did not ask about any other appointments. I only asked about Mr. McNulty's appointment to IMMA. It is the only question but the Taoiseach went down a diversionary route. This story is unravelling as it gets made up. One gets a terrible sense that people are trying to piece together and concoct a story that ends up blaming Fine Gael officials. Who mandated the Fine Gael officials to go to the Minister, Deputy Heather Humphreys, and say that Mr. McNulty wants to be appointed, and should be appointed, to a cultural body? Who mandated them to do that? Is the Taoiseach seriously suggesting that senior headquarter officials in Fine Gael went off, without his knowledge or endorsement, and said to the Minister "Appoint him"? Did any other names come from the Fine Gael officials, other than Mr. McNulty's, to be appointed? Look at the window we are talking about. We are talking about a few days between his nomination to contest the Seanad by-election on the Taoiseach's behalf and his nomination to IMMA.

There was no casual vacancy in IMMA because the Government had limited the number of board members to nine. With great haste, the Minister decided out of the blue-----

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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Make it 11.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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-----to appoint Mr. McNulty to the board. Fine Gael officials decided out of the blue to suggest to the Minister that he should be appointed. Apparently they were not mandated by anybody. It is a complete mystery. Correspondents asked the Taoiseach's spokesperson yesterday who asked the Fine Gael officials to tell the Minister to nominate Mr. McNulty. The reply from the Taoiseach's spokesperson was: "You had better ask them." All I am looking for is the truth about what happened.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Has the Deputy a question?

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Perhaps if we had got it early on last week, there would be no need for any of this. Will the Taoiseach just return to the basic question: who asked the Fine Gael officials to ask the Minister to appoint Mr. McNulty to the board of IMMA?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy has taken a wrong line again. I spoke to Mr. John McNulty about his capacity to be considered for nomination to the Seanad. When I gave my imprimatur to indicate we should consider nominating him, the Fine Gael system of validating candidates took over from there. We had already set up, internally in the party, a sub-committee of the executive council to consider names for nomination to the Seanad. There were 44 nominations submitted, or 29 people. Therefore, 29 were being considered. Obviously, the Fine Gael personnel working on this became aware in the course of the conversations with Mr. McNulty that he indicated he would like to serve on a cultural board if he intended to be a candidate for a cultural and educational panel. As he said himself this morning, he did not know when he was appointed by the Minister to the board of IMMA that he would be a candidate for the Seanad. My point yesterday, which I made to the Deputy clearly, concerned accepting the fact that the process within the Fine Gael system was itself flawed because the official dealing with this did not go back to the sub-committee of the executive council. That was the cause of great angst and a cause of concern to me.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Go back to it for what?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Because they took it upon themselves to do that.

It is a case of having accepted responsibility, having apologised for standards having slipped and of doing something about it and fixing it in general.Therefore, I do not accept the Deputy's assertion at all. The position here, which I made perfectly clear, was that the appointment to the board should not have happened because Mr. McNulty was being considered as a candidate for nomination to the Seanad.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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But the Taoiseach told the officials he was the candidate.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The point is that those associated with the internal mechanics of IMMA then said that if a person is nominated for the Seanad, he must stand down from the board. I have accepted that in a general way as Head of Government and through fixing the internal mechanics of Fine Gael Party business, which is not a matter for here. Yesterday, the Government made a decision to have a new framework, starting from 1 November, for all public appointments to be publicly advertised and externally validated, whereby every Minister will set out the conditions and criteria that will apply for each board under his or her Department's remit. Therefore, we will not have the system that applied since the foundation of the State. In the meantime, any board appointments that must be made between now and November will be announced by the relevant Minister so everybody will know that vacancies exist on certain boards. It is a case of accepting that this system is flawed in general and that we need to reform it. We have made the Government decision and it will be implemented from 1 November on www.stateboard.ieso every member of the public, be he in Gorey, Wexford or otherwise, who wishes to do public service on a board can check the relevant details. People will know the boards, vacancies, criteria, skills and required conditions and they will be verified by the Public Appointments Service. Names sent to a Minister will already be authenticated as the names of people of quality fit to serve on a board. I hope that puts an end to what occurred during Deputy Martin's time and everybody else's time-----

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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No, it does not.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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I must call Deputy Adams.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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-----when the flaw in the system allowed for people to be pilloried as cronies. If Deputy Martin wants a debate of considerable length on what happened in the past-----

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I tabled a special notice question last week and it was refused.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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-----he should have it when matters are less pressing in respect of the changes we have to make to get our country right. He and I must deal with the fragile situation in Northern Ireland, and the Government must deal with the budget in just ten days. We have to deal with a range of challenges for our country.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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If the Taoiseach had told the truth last week, we would not be here discussing this.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I have accepted responsibility.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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For what?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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We have apologised, we are doing something about it and we are fixing the problem, not just in this case but for all others for many years ahead.

Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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The Taoiseach says he has many more important issues to deal with but he is the Taoiseach and cannot dictate to the Opposition what questions we ask. Yesterday he told the Dáil there were 29 nominees to the Seanad vacancy for which he interviewed Mr. John McNulty. Was he the only Fine Gael nominee he interviewed? Yesterday the Taoiseach said that during the course of the validation and eligibility process, Mr. McNulty expressed a desire to serve on a cultural body. Today the Taoiseach says he did not raise this with him. To whom did he express that desire? Can the Taoiseach tell the Dáil who forwarded Mr. McNulty's CV to the Minister, Deputy Humphreys? Was anyone else's CV forwarded to her? Who authorised the sending of Mr. McNulty's CV to the Minister?

The Taoiseach states the Minister appointed Mr. McNulty to the board of the Irish Museum of Modern Art in her own right. In other words, he implies it had nothing to do with him, and that there were two separate processes. However, the Government quota of nine nominees to the board was already filled. Therefore, the nominations the Minister was about to make breached the Government's ceiling. I note the absence of Labour Ministers in the Chamber again. Was the Labour leader, the Tánaiste, consulted on this?

The Taoiseach also states he accepts responsibility for the Fine Gael Party officials bringing Mr. McNulty's interest in serving on a State board to the attention of a Minister, but he says it was nothing to do with him and that it was a separate process. If it was nothing to do with him, how is he responsible?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I was responsible in two ways, first as leader of the Fine Gael Party and second as Taoiseach. In respect of the Fine Gael Party, I have already pointed out that the system that the party had in place internally was not followed through. I noted reports today in some of the newspapers suggesting, for instance, that members of the executive council of Fine Gael were disappointed that there was a perception that they were being blamed. The fact of the matter is that when former Senator Deirdre Clune was elected to the European Parliament, a vacancy arose in the Seanad. The sub-committee of the executive council considered the position. There were 44 nominations, or 29 names, submitted, and the executive council made two recommendations. Subsequently, Deputy McGinley said he was going to retire. That left a vacancy for a major political representative for half of Donegal. I looked at Mr. McNulty's credentials and said he was a candidate who would fit the bill in terms of work in the Seanad. I discussed the workings of the Seanad and its political agenda with him. We never discussed anything about cultural boards. In the course of the validation process and preparing the criteria, the Fine Gael personnel did not go back to the executive council. I was upset about that because it was set up for that purpose. I accepted responsibility for that flaw in that system and am rectifying it.

In a broader sense, I now want to move on with the reform agenda. The Government has already carried out reforms in terms of corporate donations, gender balance, gender quotas and freedom of information. All of these issues have been dealt with, and here is another aspect of political reform that needs to be dealt with in everybody's interest. There are very good people who will not serve on public bodies or boards in any circumstances because of the likelihood of their being pilloried as being associates of political parties, cronies or otherwise.

That is why an external, independent validation of all of these is necessary.

Deputy Adams made the point that the Minister for Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht, Deputy Humphreys, breached the ceiling in terms of the number of personnel serving on the State boards. In the case of State boards, the Government made a commitment, which has not been followed through fully, that numbers on boards would be reduced from 15 members to nine members. That has not been followed through because many of the cultural institutions fought valiantly for the retention of their independence. Some of them were quite vociferous on that. The National Concert Hall Bill is on the A list for determination during this session.

There were six vacancies on the board of IMMA and the Minister chose to make two appointments. She made them in her own right as Minister, based on the credentials of the candidates.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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In a hurry.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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She does not have to inform me of every appointment made to every board.

In the case of chairmen of boards, the Government changed the rules and chairmen must come before the relevant Oireachtas committee to see what the applicant brings to the board.

I am not informed of every individual appointment made for non-remunerated positions on State boards, where there are thousands of positions to be filled over the years. However, from now on all of that process is removed from politics and politicians. All the positions will be publicly advertised and externally verified.

Willie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister will have the final say.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Every Minister will set out the criteria, the qualifications and the skills necessary to serve on all of the boards under his or her responsibility. That information will all be posted on www.stateboards.ieand the public will have full transparency and accountability there. Every person appointed must be independently assessed and verified.

In regard to commercial semi-State boards, where particular skillsets are required, for instance in the NewERA sector which deals with Ervia, Bord Gáis, Bord na Móna and so on, consultations with NewERA will set out the specific skillsets required, such as accountancy, legal qualifications, data management, business acumen or whatever. Following that those specialised appointments will be made. This is a major change in the system.

What I want to see resulting from all of this is that State board service and public duty service will not be seen to be in any way reproachable. It should be entirely above reproach and I hope to oversee that through the decision the Government made yesterday.

Michael Healy-Rae (Kerry South, Independent)
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The Taoiseach said that three years ago.

Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Often when the Taoiseach is asked a question here, he responds by saying, "This is a very complex issue", as if it was beyond the comprehension of us mere mortals on this side of the House. I am trying to keep this simple. I asked the Taoiseach a series of straightforward questions which he ignored completely. Was Mr. John McNulty the only Fine Gael nominee the Taoiseach interviewed? Please answer this question.

The Taoiseach says Mr. McNulty expressed his desire to serve on a cultural body, but has said today that Mr. McNulty did not raise that with him. I repeat my question. Who did he express that desire to? The Taoiseach is bound to have checked this out and to have asked someone about it. Will he tell the Dáil? Paddy wants to know; Patricia wants to know. Will the Taoiseach also tell the Dáil who forwarded Mr. McNulty's CV to the Minister, Deputy Humphreys?

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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The system.

Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Who authorised this? Was the CV of anyone else forwarded to her? In response to my earlier question, the Taoiseach said, answering a question I did not ask, that he decided Mr. McNulty would be a good candidate for the nomination for the Seanad vacancy. Did he decide this before the Minister received the proposition that Mr. McNulty should be nominated to the board of IMMA?

Michael Healy-Rae (Kerry South, Independent)
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Did he order it?

Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Now to the crux, who recommended to the Minister that Mr. McNulty should be nominated to the board of IMMA?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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It is not a complex issue. No, John McNulty was not the only person I interviewed. Some of the 29 approached me themselves and I spoke to them about their views as to whether they might be considered. John McNulty was one person to whom I gave a lengthy interview, because of the fact that Deputy McGinley-----

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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He was the chosen one.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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-----had announced his proposed retirement. It is not complex. The Fine Gael Party set up a structure within its executive council of a sub-committee to deal with all of the names put forward.

Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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The Taoiseach is here as Taoiseach and should not confuse the two roles.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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That sub-committee prepares a case for those candidates it thinks are very good. The sub-committee did that.

The point I made when answering questions here yesterday was that after I spoke to John McNulty, the process kicked in for validation within that structure and that the executive council was not reported to nor informed, nor was I.

Yes, I said he was a good candidate, he is a good candidate and I have heard him speak since. He was one of a number of names being considered for-----

Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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For IMMA.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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-----for nomination to the Seanad-----

Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I am asking the Taoiseach about IMMA.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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-----when he would have been appointed to the board of IMMA, if the Deputy lets me answer. As I said to the Deputy, Mr. McNulty himself said this morning that he did not know that he was going to be the candidate when he was appointed to IMMA by the Minister for Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht in her own right as Minister.

Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Who sent his CV to the Minister?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The CV was prepared by Fine Gael personnel in Fine Gael headquarters and forwarded to the Minister by personnel. The point I am making is simple. The system that was in place was flawed and has not worked. I have changed that and we are moving on to a much broader reform policy to deal will all public appointments.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Please allow the Taoiseach respond. A question was asked and he is replying to it.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Some of the people on the Fianna Fáil side who approached me in the past three months about personnel they wanted appointed to various boards might now reflect on what is happening on that side as well.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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We have spent two days asking who sent the CV to the Minister, but the Taoiseach will not provide an answer.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The point is the system is flawed. I have accepted responsibility on my watch. Standards slipped and I am unhappy about that. John McNulty himself spoke out clearly and cogently about this yesterday. I am fixing the process internally and that is a matter for Fine Gael. In the broader sense, for the country, we are moving on to a big reform programme where we will put an end to the flawed system which allowed for people who want to give public service to be branded as lackeys and cronies.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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If Members want a lengthy debate on this issue some time, we will give that to them.

Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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On a point of order, I asked the Taoiseach straightforward questions on three occasions, but he has failed or refused to answer them. I put the question again. Who sent Mr. McNulty's CV to the Minister and who authorised that?

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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That is not a point of order.

Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I ask the Chair to rule on that.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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It is not a point of order.

Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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But the Taoiseach will not answer the question.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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The Taoiseach needs to answer the question.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Let me repeat again, it is not a point of order, and I am not responsible for replies Taoisigh or Ministers give. I must ask the Deputy to resume his seat.

Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Chuir mé ceist ar an Taoiseach ach níor thug sé freagra dom.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Tá a fhios agam. I call Deputy Joan Collins.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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On a point of order-----

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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I will not hear any more points of order.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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On a point of order-----

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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It better be in order.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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It is a correction of the Dáil record. Yesterday, we had a statement from the Taoiseach which conflicts with his statement today in regard to the interview he had with Mr. McNulty. He said:

I interviewed John McNulty, felt he was an excellent, outstanding candidate who was well qualified. During the course of the process of validating his eligibility, he expressed the wish to serve on a cultural body.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Martin should resume his seat. I call Deputy Collins.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The correction of the record is a valid point to raise under Standing Orders.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy, please resume your seat.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Taoiseach is prepared to correct it now.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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If the Taoiseach wants to come in, he may.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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When I spoke yesterday, I was speaking about the entire process. I can confirm to the Deputy that when I spoke to John McNulty in regard to his being considered as a person who might be nominated for the Seanad, he did not raise any question of being appointed to any cultural board.

Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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Who did he raise it with?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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He did so later on when the Fine Gael personnel were dealing with the preparation of his CV and he expressed his interest in serving on a board.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal South West, Sinn Fein)
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The Taoiseach signed his nomination paper.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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He did not say anything to me about that, and I correct the record in that regard. If I confused Deputy Martin, I am sorry.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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I call Deputy Joan Collins.

Joan Collins (Dublin South Central, United Left)
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The Taoiseach is right that there are a lot of issues going on that should be discussed in the Dáil. However, I think what people have seen over the last few days has created more cynicism towards this Government and so-called democracy in this country. I want to raise two things that happened yesterday, one in my own constituency, where a landlord-----

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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It is just one item, Deputy.

Joan Collins (Dublin South Central, United Left)
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It is one issue but two incidents. Yesterday, in my constituency, a landlord attempted to carry out an illegal eviction. This involved a couple with a one-year-old child. While the family were out, the landlord came into the flat, cut off the electricity, took off the front door and changed the locks on the main door of the building. The couple made contact with my constituency office and Councillor Pat Dunne, who works in the office, responded very quickly because the family were obviously distressed, fearful and did not know what to do or who to turn to. He went to the flat and managed to sort out the issue and to explain to the landlord that he was in breach of the Residential Tenancies Act 2004. He was very lucky because he did not know what he was going into, whether there were heavies there or what was happening. The landlord reinstated the electricity, put the door back on and changed the locks again.

The point I want to make is an important one. The very distraught tenant, facing the prospect of his family being on the street, told Councillor Dunne that before he rang my office he had rung for gardaí not once but four times. The gardaí refused to intervene, stating it was a civil matter. This is not the first time this has happened in my area. About six months ago, I sent a letter to the Dublin South Central Policing Forum asking for clarification on the Garda position in regard to illegal evictions. We got a direct reply from Garda headquarters that the Residential Tenancies Act was not criminal legislation and they did not get involved in civil matters. Therefore, the illegal eviction of a family is a civil matter, not a criminal matter.

Yesterday, again, 12 people in Edenmore were arrested for peacefully protesting against the installation of water meters by a private company, a subcontractor employed by Irish Water. Section 12 of the Irish Water Act has been quoted to these people, stating that Irish Water and its subcontractors and agencies can install water meters. It says nothing about it being illegal to protest.

It seems that two laws are being administered here, one for a criminal offence in regard to the installation of water meters while, at the same time, there is no criminal offence in the illegal eviction of a family from their home. I believe the Taoiseach would agree this is wrong, immoral, unfair and should not be happening. The law should be administered equally across society and there should not be one law for private companies and private landlords and another law for families threatened with an illegal eviction or those peacefully protesting against the installation of water meters.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I do not know the details of the case Deputy Collins has mentioned except for the circumstances she outlined. The Cabinet sub-committee dealt this week with the question of the housing position, homelessness, social housing and the actions that have been taken by Dublin City Council to deal with a problem that is not getting better, to put it that way. The Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government was to meet this week with the four local authority managers about that situation. If the Deputy wants to give me the details of the specific case she mentioned, whether it be civil or otherwise, I will see whether anything can be done about it, although if it is a civil action, it is a civil action.

I had a couple of telephone calls yesterday from people who live here in Dublin. The contract companies working for Irish Water came to install water meters and they were harassed.

John Halligan (Waterford, Independent)
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They are doing the harassing themselves.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Peaceful protest in this country is perfectly legitimate but it is not legitimate to stop people from going about their duty and their work. The gardaí have had to be called in a number of cases where much more than peaceful protest took place. In other locations around the country, I have had evidence that where work started in some estates, people suddenly arrived to protest. I have had evidence of residents actually coming out and asking these people to remove themselves. It seems as if there are some groups who travel from location to location to protest. As the Deputy said, they are entitled to protest but they are only entitled to protest legitimately and they cannot interfere with and should not prohibit people going about their lawful work.

Irish Water is designed to bring quality water infrastructure for the country and that should not be interfered with. There is a process that the law applies for everybody here. As I said, in many other parts of the country contractors have installed water meters without anybody appearing, and they have done a first class job. It is all part of the capacity to provide high quality water for the people of our country and for business for years to come.

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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We do not need meters to provide high quality water.

Joan Collins (Dublin South Central, United Left)
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Yes, we do not need meters to have good water. The question I am asking is very simple. The gardaí refused to act to stop an illegal eviction by a landlord on the basis it was a civil matter. Yet, while other people stand peacefully over a water shore, they are told it is an illegal protest, and section 12 of the Irish Water Act is quoted, which states that Irish Water and its agencies can install water meters in an area. It does not say that person should not have the right to say "I do not want a water meter".

The Taoiseach brought in questions of people travelling around the country and around the city, and all of that. I was at a meeting last week in Drimnagh called by the Drimnagh residents support group, a residents association in the area, where more than300 people came out and said they did not want water meters installed at their premises or at their homes. If an ordinary person comes out and says to Irish Water or the subcontractor, "I do not want a water meter here, go on to the next house if they want a water meter", that is quite legitimate. Instead, the gardaí are being used to stand in estates, taking registrations of cars going in and out, removing people from the stopcocks over the shores and arresting them, bringing them down to Coolock Garda station and telling them they must wait to see if Irish Water or the subcontractor will press charges.

This is one law for those who have plenty of money and one law for those who are peacefully resisting. Ordinary people are coming out of their homes, with their children, to say they do not want a water meter installed, and they do this in the knowledge that they will get an assessed bill in the future - they are well aware of that so they are not doing this blind. They do not want a water meter and they are very angry. It is just a microcosm of the anger that this Government is imposing another austerity tax on people. I want clarity from the Taoiseach on this. Why is one law being used in one circumstance and another law being interpreted by gardaí as being a criminal matter when it comes to protests about water meters?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Evictions and people being removed from their homes are very traumatic incidents. As I said, if the Deputy gives me the details, we will look at that. The Deputy said we do not need water meters to have good water, and that is true. However, the taxpayers of this country are paying €1.2 billion to produce that water. We cannot have a situation where people can expect to have a free water supply of good water paid for the taxpayer, with some people not contributing.

These water meters are installed on the public thoroughfare, not on private property.

Joan Collins (Dublin South Central, United Left)
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They are outside people's houses.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The contractors who are subcontracted to Irish Water will not go onto private property unless they are invited to do so. When the situation kicks in where the first leak between the meter and the edge of the house will apply, obviously, the recommendation is to fix that free. Water meters are on the public thoroughfare, and they are there because water paid for by the public is going through that pipe.

It is perfectly in order for people to have a legitimate protest, and I meet them around the country on so many occasions, but it is not legal to prevent people from doing their job and doing their duty, for which they are paid, in order to provide water meters on public property so that a contribution can be had from those who avail of the water flowing through those pipes. That water is produced and paid for by the Irish taxpayer.

We want to see a situation where the charges are fair, equitable and affordable. The water meters are on public property and not on private property. If people want to protest legitimately about that, they are entitled to do so but they are not entitled to prohibit or prevent people from doing their duty.