Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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14. To ask the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs if he will provide a Supplementary Estimate for Tusla, the Child and Family Agency in 2014; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [35727/14]

Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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This is somewhat similar to the question I asked earlier. It relates to the provision of a Supplementary Estimate for Tusla, the new Child and Family Agency, in 2014. If the Minister was not able an hour ago to give me a definitive answer on whether a Supplementary Estimate brought would be forward at the end of this year, I doubt he will have his mind made up. All the same, maybe we can hear what he has to say.

James Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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As I mentioned already, the financial allocation for Tusla, the Child and Family Agency, in 2014, its first year of operation, was set at €609 million. This comprised €602 million in current funding and €7 million in capital funding. It is acknowledged that delivering the range of services required of the agency within this budget is challenging. Notwithstanding the significant level of resources provided, certain areas of expenditure, such as legal costs, which we covered already, have in the past proven difficult to manage within the allocated budget. It is also noted that other areas of expenditure, such as private residential and foster care, have experienced strong demand in 2014.

The agency is implementing significant reform to seek to achieve greater value for money and efficiencies in such areas and the progress in this regard is subject to ongoing monitoring and review with my Department. This is an issue about which Mr. Gordon Jeyes is extremely concerned and is working hard to address. Officials in my Department continue to monitor closely the cash position of the agency and are working with the agency to determine an evidence-based full year cash requirement. No final determination has yet been reached in this regard.

In the event that supplementary funding is required to meet the running costs of the agency in 2014, the matter will be discussed with Department of Public Expenditure and Reform as part of the ongoing budgetary discussions.

Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister was the Minister for Health at the time the new agency was set up and its remit transferred from that Department to Tusla. Is he satisfied the new agency was left carry over a deficit? Surely, the new agency should have started off afresh with a blank sheet. That would have sent a clear signal that we want this agency to work.

I accept the issue of legal costs has been ongoing for several years but that does not mean it should not be tackled. In fact, it has not been tackled over the past four years. Two years ago, an article in The Sunday Business Postpointed out the legal fees came to €35 million in 2011 alone, much of which was made up in payments to guardians ad litem. What has been done to tackle these exorbitant legal fees? What were the legal fees for 2011 to 2014, inclusive? Is this issue being tackled and have they been reduced year on year for the past several years?

James Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Deputy for raising this issue as it concerns us all. The legal fees issue is being addressed with steps taken including the negotiation of reduced fees and stricter controls on accessing legal advice. Sometimes one has to question the necessity of the use of a legal team in certain matters. It is often a case of if you are lawyered up, then I have to be lawyered up too, a scenario that is being addressed.

I will do my best to get the breakdown of the amounts of moneys spent on legal fees. There will have to be a breakdown in previous Health Service Executive bills that relate to child care issues. The Deputy knows my view that moneys spent on medical-legal compensation should be going to victims, not to the legal profession with no disrespect to it. That issue is being actively addressed by Mr. Gordon Jeyes and is one of the top items on his agenda.

A commissioning strategy is being developed for the issuing of grants to ensure the most effective use of available resources. Much work has to be done to bring about measurable evidence-based outcomes. While we can have a sense that these services are delivering in a great way, some elements may not be achieving the outcomes we want and others could be promoted more if we had measured outcomes. Much work will be done with these services, particularly youth services.

Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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It is extremely important to tackle the waste through exorbitant legal fees. I do not accept the Minister will try his best to ascertain the figures involved. They should be readily available and we should know what is being spent by the Department in any given year in any particular area on legal fees. I got them before and I hope the Minister’s office will make them available again. I also hope they will show a downward trajectory and that the issue is being tackled. It is not right or proper to see that level of funding being spent at any time but particularly at a time when our budgets are under so much pressure and when the numbers of children in care have increased from 5,247 in 2005 to 6,460 in 2013. This is also a time when there has been a 91% increase in reported child protection issues while the number of social workers remains static. The workload has doubled for the same workforce but this cannot continue.

James Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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If the figures are readily available, the Deputy will have them. If not, he will not. Given what I said earlier, it is not reasonable to expect we would have completeness in this when some people do not submit their bills for four years.

Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister should know what was spent, however.

James Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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Yes, we can tell the Deputy what was paid. However, if X million euro is spent this year for bills for services incurred three years ago, how will that inform the Deputy what were the actual legal costs incurred in this year alone? I hope he accepts this point.

On the 91% increase in reported cases, much has changed since 2005 with the Ryan report and other issues leading to a greater awareness of the issue of child abuse and neglect. There is a much greater willingness to report than before. There has also been an increase in the child population with the welcome increase in the birth rate. This presents difficulties in the workload for child care social workers. That is why we need to ensure social workers are freed up to do the work they are specifically trained to do and not get side-tracked by administrative duties that others could be doing. Traditionally because they have not had that support, they might be spending some time on that area. That is not a criticism of social workers. It is the situation in which they find themselves. It is our job to support them and allow them do the work they alone can do.