Dáil debates

Thursday, 18 September 2014

Water Services (Exempt Charges) Bill 2014: Second Stage (Resumed) [Private Members]

 

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

12:45 pm

Photo of Tom FlemingTom Fleming (Kerry South, Independent)
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I congratulate Minister of State, Deputy Paudie Coffey, on his appointment and wish him the very best in his term in office.

Water metering is the priority of Irish Water to the exclusion of required emergency works to deal with contaminated water supplies and provide for the replacement of deficient pipelines leaking millions of gallons of water every year. Kerry County Council has an extensive network of water pipes that are leaking continuously. The intermittent supply to thousands of households in the county is a nuisance and an inconvenience and financially demanding on householders who must make other arrangements such as purchasing bottled water for drinking from shops or going to a neighbouring townland to obtain potable drinking water.

There is an urgent need for Irish Water to give approval to Kerry County Council to proceed to upgrade pipelines. Recently, €850,000 was approved for the mid-Kerry area, but there is an urgency to provide, in the medium to short term, up to €10 million to deal with the burst pipes throughout the county. I commend Irish Water for giving approval for the replacement of lead pipes in Tralee. There is disappointment that the lead pipes within the boundaries of households will not be replaced. Perhaps the Minister might intervene and provide grant aid to allow the houses in question to be replumbed. Unknowingly, the people affected lived in their homes for the past 50 years without knowing there was contamination of their drinking water. It is calculated that the water supply in over 55,000 houses in the country is contaminated, as well as in schools. I ask the Minister of State to liaise with the Minister for Education and Skills to look after schools at an early stage.

Photo of Ruth CoppingerRuth Coppinger (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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We already pay for water. Who does the Government think is paying for it? Is it the tooth fairy? Some €1.2 billion is the cost of getting water to our taps, of which €1 billion is paid by households, with €200 million being paid by businesses. The amounts Irish Water is sending around in the packs are illusory. When the cap is lifted after six months, people will receive the real bill based on what they use. Some 148 litres per day is the usage level in the greatest study conducted in the greater Dublin area. That means that two adults will not be paying €278 but €380. It means that households with four adults, of which there are many, will pay €908. This will be the most savage austerity bill householders will face. The message of the Socialist Party and the Anti-Austerity Alliance, of which we are part, is simple: people should not pay. These bills will sink households and the Revenue Commissioners are not involved. The bill cannot be stolen or deducted from people's wages and income, in the way the property can, and we can build a boycott of bills and a mass campaign on non-payment to defeat it. The Anti-Austerity Alliance leaflet was launched on the Internet and, within a day, there were 3,000 likes. Some 65 people attended a meeting in Jobstown, west Tallaght, which is not a area in which there are normally large meetings. The Government seriously underestimates the levels of hatred and poverty.

My message is that we will build a campaign on non-payment which we will make a major issue in the Dublin South West by-election. It is rank hypocrisy on the part of Fianna Fáil to table this Bill as it signed off with the troika on full cost recovery. It is also hypocrisy on the part of the Labour Party. This is a totally unjust law and should be challenged by people in a mass campaign.

Photo of Clare DalyClare Daly (Dublin North, United Left)
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This issue is a sad example of the doublespeak that categorises the Government. Ministers are lining up to tell us that austerity is at an end and that there will be a few crumbs thrown in the budget. Meanwhile, the Government is bulldozing through and putting its hands in people's pockets through water charges. It is ironic that we are having this discussion on the day MABS has issued a report and predicted that it will wipe out people's disposable income. The application packs landing on people's floors are causing consternation as they attempt to elicit private and personal information, inconveniencing householders in the process.

1 o’clock

What is more devastating is the prospect of a bill of hundreds of euro which people simply cannot afford to pay. It is a blow too far. Access to water is a fundamental human right and it should be available to all, based on their needs and not on ability to pay. That is a principle worth fighting for because people have already paid for this through their central taxation. Recent studies have shown that the poorest people have paid the most through the disproportionately high level of stealth charges in this economy.

The message the Government should take is that it will be resisted. Many people cannot afford to pay and many others will simply not bother sending back the application packs and why should they. The Government has warned that water pressure will be lowered for those with meters but hardly anyone will have a meter; it has threatened to take the allowances but for those determined not to pay, the question of whether they have the allowances is neither here nor there. I refer the Minister of State to a very frightening example which activists have put on YouTube and on which I ask him to comment which shows that the water system is being left exposed and open to outside interference because of the way in which the meter system has been structured. The Government should take a lead from what happened in Bolivia where a government was toppled over water charges. I think the Government will have a serious fight on its hands on this issue.

12:55 pm

Photo of Mick WallaceMick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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A spokesperson for Irish Water was asked on RTE this morning about the possibility of Irish Water being privatised in the future. She replied that this is possible because the 13 March legislation insists that is impossible. That is not true. The Lisbon treaty has ensured that any private company wishing to buy a private utility when it suits will have that option. The notion that Irish Water will not be privatised is bunkum. If the Government has been so keen to solve the problems associated with water, why did it not give the local authorities the necessary funds to deal with the problems? A total of 40% of our water is leaking into the ground. It would take approximately half a billion euro to fix the problem and this would be a help. There is a waiting list of waste treatment plants and many of these projects have been put on hold in order to facilitate the situation with regard to Irish Water. It would make far more sense to invest in water services and the local authorities were well placed to do the work and it is outrageous to say otherwise. The local authorities are not responsible for the bad state of water; the fault lies with central government's refusal to give them funding to deal with the problems.

Instead of fixing the pipes and building the waste treatment plants, the Government's top priority has been to spend €500 million on installing water meters and giving consultants €85 million even though Bord Gáis was supposed to have all the answers and consultants would not be needed. It is clear the Government's top priority is to create an entity that will be saleable. God help us when Irish Water is privatised because we have only to look at England where a multiplicity of companies run the water services. Their profits have doubled in the past ten years and executive pay has gone from £220,000 to £500,000. The citizens pay for those salaries. When Irish Water is privatised it will be very expensive and it is outrageous that the Government would sell out something as vital as water to the private sector.

Photo of Séamus HealySéamus Healy (Tipperary South, Workers and Unemployed Action Group)
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Water is a right and this water tax is an outrageous attack on families who will be unable to pay it. The MABS report issued today states that families have a disposable income of €9 per week after bills are paid. Even at this late stage the Government should reverse this charge which will be opposed tooth and nail right across the country. I support the Bill and it is outrageous that the exemption for boil-water notices has come at this late stage. Contaminated water is being supplied to households and the exemption should apply from day one and not after a period of time of three or six months. Houses in the Burncourt and Skeheenarinky area of south Tipperary, like 20,000 or 30,000 houses all over the country, must be exempt from day one.

Families who are supplied with hard water are being forced to pay over the odds to replace clapped out electric kettles and washing machines and dryers. They have been forced to buy machines to reduce the hardness of the water, costing anything up to €1,000 to install and with ongoing maintenance costs. These machines must be flushed out on a weekly basis which adds to the costs. There are thousands of such families across the northern area of Clonmel and throughout south Tipperary who should also be exempt from this water charge.

Photo of Seán KennySeán Kenny (Dublin North East, Labour)
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Deputies Frank Feighan, Bernard Durkan and James Bannon are sharing time with ten minutes each. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Photo of Frank FeighanFrank Feighan (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Fine Gael)
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I remind the House that approximately 20,000 people in my county of Roscommon are on boil-water notices for too long to remember. A previous speaker said that the local authorities were the right people to provide the service but my local authority failed the people of County Roscommon. Many local authorities were provided with significant funding by the previous Fianna Fáil Government and I ask why are 20,000 people out of the population of 50,000 in County Roscommon are still on boil-water notices. Is it morally right that they have to pay for water unfit for human consumption? Is it morally right that they have to boil their tap water to prepare food, wash their hands and brush their teeth? People who are affected cannot drink water directly from the tap. It is unacceptable that families and children must put up with this situation, some of whom have been dealing with it for more than ten years. Where were the local councillors and the local authorities for the past ten years? They said nothing because they assumed that the local authority was getting the funding and doing the work.

The approach to water quality in this country does not add up. People are objecting to septic tank inspections. Most of the septic tanks in rural areas in County Roscommon are seeping into our water supply. We want clean water but then we resist septic tank inspections; we cannot have it both ways.

I am delighted with the good news last October when the then Minister, Phil Hogan, came down to Roscommon and announced that the investment was happening. He announced the provision of €16 million for the five water treatment plants in Roscommon in Boyle-Ardcarne, Kelleglan in south Roscommon and Castlerea. Nobody took any heed because it was good news and it was not a story. However, one week later, a Deputy who has happily gone to Europe, brought a glass of water into the Chamber and asked how anyone could drink that water. That was the good story. That man did not say much before that but unfortunately, nobody wants good news or to hear of anything being done; all they want is good news. The good news is that the water treatment plants are under construction. I hope that we will have good infrastructure and good water for our people in the coming months. It is unacceptable that we have been let down.

There are currently 31 public water supplies under restriction, affecting approximately 26,000 people, 20,000 in my own county. Where were the local councillors and the local councils? They were getting the money and they did nothing. I wish to put on the record of the House that the then Minister, Phil Hogan, delivered the money to address that situation. This has not been recognised. The installation of water meters has created jobs.

It is proposed that households with an impaired water supply for less than a period of three months will receive a 50% discount on their water charge.

Households with supplies that are impaired for more than three months will receive a 100% discount. I am delighted with this, particularly as I highlighted in a submission I made to the CER the fact that households in Roscommon should not be obliged to pay.

Our democracy has reached a very difficult stage. Democracy involves doing what one believes to be for the common good. Three years ago, journalists from RTE camped outside Roscommon County Hospital in the county in which I live and interviewed people who stated that individuals were going to die or that the facility was going to close. Some 50 lives have been saved and no one has died. The hospital is busier and patients are safer. A new wing - the endoscopy building - is currently being constructed and I invite members and reporters from RTE and other media outlets to come to visit it. The new building - it might be called the Frank Feighan Endoscopy Building - is only there because I stayed around to ensure it would become a reality. However, nobody is paying any heed to its construction. The RTE journalists to whom I referred earlier camped outside Roscommon County Hospital for three months listening to stories from unqualified people whose accounts went unverified. When it became evident that everyone had got it wrong, these journalists moved on. No one should take my word in respect of this matter. I invite Deputy Cowen and anyone else who wishes to do so to visit the hospital and ask the consultants and other medical staff whether the hospital is busier, whether patients are safer and whether lives have been saved. The answers to each of these three questions will be "Yes."

Another issue that arises in this regard is turf-cutting. Around 1,000 people in County Roscommon are being paid €1,500 per year, tax-free and index-linked, for a period of 15 years. This adds up to a total of €23,000 for each of them. They are being paid this money - and rightly so - as a result of the fact that their turf-cutting rights relate to lands that are part of special areas of conservation. Eighty-five percent of those people have been relocated from natural heritage areas, NHAs, as a result of the great work that has been done with Europe in this regard. All of the work to which I refer was done behind the scenes and, as a result, all one hears from people is that what is happening is awful.

These issues are being addressed but, unfortunately, all the local and national media want to report on are sad stories. I am of the view that journalists and reporters should revisit particular areas after the story has moved on in order to discover exactly what has happened. As already stated, no one has been back to investigate what happened in the case of water supplies. In that context, €17 million was allocated to the construction of five different treatment plants in a county that needed them. One week after the relevant announcement was made, a man who had never previously commented on this matter decided to enter the Chamber with a glass of dirty water and place it in front of one of the then Ministers of State at the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government. As a result, everyone began discussing the safety of water supplies, and rightly so, particularly as businesses, families and so on have been affected. In the town in which I live - Boyle, County Roscommon - there are currently boil-water notices in place. This problem has been allowed to drag on for far too long. However, it must be noted that the Government has provided funding in order to ensure that people will have access to clean water. I reiterate that local authorities let us down in respect of this matter. As Deputy Cowen is aware, those authorities were allocated many millions of euro in funding but they failed to address the matter in the correct way.

I am of the view that we are going down a very dangerous road. The Government has a job to do and every action has its consequence. There are those who state that they are not going to pay water charges. If they do not do so, who will pay? We need rational politicians who will tell the people the truth. We do not need individuals who merely wish to go on local radio and so on in order to shout about things being awful. We must work together in order to try to deliver the best services possible for the people. Reforms are taking place, but if we continue down this road, the political system will not be able to meet the wishes of a demanding electorate. That electorate will eventually overload the State with demands and it will then seek a strong leader. In the 1930s, those in Germany sought a strong leader and they got one. This difference between remaining a democracy and descending into anarchy is very small. I accept that mistakes have been made but I again say that we must work together. I do not know whether it was a result of the boom, but in the past ten years people's expectations - I include my own - have reached a level at which they cannot be addressed by the State alone. Effectively, people are being told everything they want to hear - namely, that they should not pay and that they should protest. Eventually, we must stand firm and tell them the truth.

Two months ago, the previous Minister for Health, Deputy Reilly, visited Roscommon County Hospital in order to launch the construction project for the new endoscopy building. On the day he visited, there was a protest outside the hospital. Said protest was aimed at a man who had allocated €20 million in funding to this project and others. One would not see the like on an episode of "Killinaskully". However, that is the road we are going down. I am extremely proud that I am part of a Government team that is standing up and delivering for this country. Will I receive thanks for this? Probably not, but I remain proud of the fact that we have made a difference. The figures released by the CSO earlier today will provide a little more encouragement to people. Fine Gael and the Labour Party have accepted the difficult challenges and made the hard decisions. When the penny eventually drops, the people will come to realise this.

1:05 pm

Photo of Bernard DurkanBernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I welcome the opportunity to contribute to the debate. It is approximately 25 years since I first tabled a parliamentary question about the availability of adequate supplies of domestic drinking water in all areas throughout the country. I submitted similar questions on each occasion on which successive Ministers with responsibility for this matter came before the House. It is extremely sad that this country underwent an economic boom during which nothing happened. At the end of that boom, local authorities were refusing to grant planning permission on the basis of a lack of adequate water supplies, treatment facilities and availability of domestic drinking water.

I am very fond of Deputy Cowen, who is a nice guy. There are many extremely nice people living in his constituency, which lies adjacent to that which I represent. I served in the House alongside the Deputy's brother and father, both of whom were honourable individuals. Deputy Cowen is also honourable, but he must be between a rock and a hard place to have come up with the Bill currently before the House. I understand where he is coming from. He is trying to weave a path through the people sitting behind him - who want everything to be free of charge for all and sundry - while seeking to remain realistic and take into account difficulties with regard to cryptosporidium in water supplies. It must be noted that in the past couple of years a number of individuals who sit in the seats adjacent to that which the Deputy currently occupies mounted huge campaigns in order to ensure that groundwater would not be improved and the new septic tank regime would not be accepted. There is a massive contradiction in terms of the Bill before us.

The reality is that the buck must stop somewhere. A famous former President of the United States had a sign on his desk which proclaimed "The buck stops here." The buck has finally stopped in this country. It is ironic that when it came to power three and a half years ago, the Government was obliged to address the major infrastructural deficit that exists in this area and that it had no money to do so. It is not that long since the water supply in the major tourism centre that is Galway was full of cryptosporidium, that Latin individual about which we hear so much. Tourists were afraid to visit the area as a result. We heard a great deal of blarney and rubbish about the matter at the time, when what was actually needed was a major plan to address the issues involved. The first of those is the fact that it will not be possible to encourage industrial development of the kind required in order to provide full employment unless there is access to adequate water supplies, telecommunications, road networks and transport. If we achieve the latter, then we will bring people closer both to each other and to the international community to which we sell our goods and services. Ireland's is an open economy and we sell almost 90% of what we produce abroad. It is extremely important, therefore, that this infrastructure is provided.

It is appalling that the quality of water supplies was allowed to deteriorate to the extent to which it has done in recent years. A number of individuals on the opposite side of the House who are not here at present have stated that water should be free.

Of course, it should be free and it would be great if it was. I would be supportive of this, if I could get someone to lay the pipes, provide the purification plant and all that goes with it for nothing. If such a man or woman was willing to volunteer, it would be free.

There are those who say we pay enough in taxes. That argument is wearing thin. Whether we pay enough in taxes - we pay a good deal in taxes - providing services free is a very serious question.

As you will recall, Acting Chairman - I recall it well and imagine our colleagues on the other side of the House recall it, too - there were times in the past when services were provided by the local authority. Many campaigned and were elected on the basis that such services should be free. What happened? The services were taken from the local authority. Why? It was because the local authority could not afford to provide them. A particular example was an effective waiver in respect of water services. Another was refuse collection services. The waiver scheme was simple and cost-effective to operate. However, there were many protests about it, while the service was operated alongside those provided by the commercial private sector. What happened? The local authority had the privilege of serving all those with a waiver, for whom the private sector took no responsibility. What did we get? There was a discontinuation of the local authority service, which was both sad and an appalling thing to happen.

1:15 pm

Photo of Éamon Ó CuívÉamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Fine Gael did it.

Photo of Bernard DurkanBernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Fianna Fáil did it - it was responsible.

Photo of Seán KennySeán Kenny (Dublin North East, Labour)
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Can we, please, have some order?

Photo of Bernard DurkanBernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Incidentally, now that I see Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív in the House, he was the man who was running around the country in recent years talking about septic tanks. He wanted a groundwater supply. In what world was he living? We are living in the real world. Does Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív remember cryptosporidium, the bacteria in the water supply in Galway, with which he has been living for the past ten years? What did you do about the problem?

Photo of Seán KennySeán Kenny (Dublin North East, Labour)
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Will the Deputy, please, address his comments through the Chair?

Photo of Bernard DurkanBernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I am sorry, Acting Chairman, but Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív irritated me at the vital moment.

(Interruptions).

Photo of Seán KennySeán Kenny (Dublin North East, Labour)
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Order, please.

Photo of Bernard DurkanBernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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There is only so much rubbish one can put up with. There is plenty of the old nonsense.

(Interruptions).

Photo of Bernard DurkanBernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Incidentally, as I have not yet turned on Westmeath, Deputy Robert Troy should take it easy.

Photo of Robert TroyRobert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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Please sit down and do not put us through any more.

Photo of Bernard DurkanBernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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There is only so much one can tolerate and my tolerance has been tested several times the recent years.

Photo of Éamon Ó CuívÉamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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We are finding it hard over here also.

Photo of Bernard DurkanBernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy may wish to look into his heart and ask himself what the people wanted. He should ask himself whether they want cryptosporidium in their water supply. Have they indicated that this is the way they want it, or have they indicated otherwise? I will ask him a further question. He should know well - he is an intelligent man - that if the groundwater supply becomes polluted, all water in the country will be polluted. Archimedes proved this a long time ago. Water finds its own level and if one pollutes part of the supply of groundwater, everything will be polluted over a given period.

We are bound by national and international law to address these issues. We find ourselves in a situation - I understand how Fianna Fáil is in something of a quandary - because, as I said before-----

Photo of Éamon Ó CuívÉamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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It is Fine Gael that is in a quandary.

Photo of Bernard DurkanBernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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-----on the one hand, the party pre-elections used to oppose charges of all descriptions.

(Interruptions).

Photo of Bernard DurkanBernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I was here at the time.

Photo of Seán KennySeán Kenny (Dublin North East, Labour)
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May we have order, please?

Photo of Bernard DurkanBernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I have no wish for the Deputy to be put out.

Photo of Seán KennySeán Kenny (Dublin North East, Labour)
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Deputy Ó Cuív, no interruptions, please.

Photo of Bernard DurkanBernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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He is irritating me a good deal, but at the same time he is inspiring me.

Photo of Éamon Ó CuívÉamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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I am sorry, Acting Chairman, I could not hear you.

Photo of Bernard DurkanBernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I remember a time in the mid-1980s when Fianna Fáil was in opposition and opposed to a local charge. It was opposed to local charges, but when it entered government some years later, it turned out that it was only for electioneering purposes, not for anything else.

Photo of Robert TroyRobert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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That was Deputy Pat Rabbitte.

Photo of Bernard DurkanBernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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There is now a great deal of confusion on the other side of the House. Incidentally, this is the alternative Government which is proposing, on the one hand, to have free water or no water charges at all - it believes most services should be free and, on the other - this is a good one - maintains that we must get down to identifying what the precise number of litres per household should be, including the number each person uses in taking a shower. It should cop on and get real. The reality is that once we get into the minutiae we know full well that we are listening to rubbish. Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív and I know each other well. When he comes up with that nonsense, he should expect me to laugh rather than take it seriously because it is not.

Photo of Éamon Ó CuívÉamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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It is serious and Fine Gael should do something about it.

Photo of Bernard DurkanBernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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We all recognise the need to try to ensure the cost to the householder will be within his or her capacity to handle. That is something to which we all aspire. I am unsure how well founded the notion is that we can have anything for free. I am unsure whether it is well grounded. I do not think there is anything that is provided free any more for anyone anywhere. If we were to go down that road, I would hate to be among the general public as they could be the victims of the joint policies of, on the one hand, the Fianna Fáil Party which wants to do this with the one hand and that with the other with a general policy of amelioration for everyone and, on the other, the Technical Group, the Independent Group or the Sinn Féin group which wants free services for all.

The Acting Chairman is a very tolerant man. I thank him for his tolerance. I will pardon Deputy Barry Cowen on the basis that he has fully recognised that what I have just said is absolutely true.

Photo of James BannonJames Bannon (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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I am pleased to have the opportunity to contribute to this debate. I have listened to many of the contributions with great interest. Since the Government took office several million euro has been invested to improve water quality, particularly in conties Longford and Westmeath, something I have welcomed on many occasions in the past three years. There is, however, an ongoing problem in Newtowncashel, county Longford where there is a boiled water notice in place. I have been in contact with Irish Water in the hope this problem will be addressed as soon as possible in the interests of local people.

Photo of Barry CowenBarry Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy should vote for the Bill.

Photo of Robert TroyRobert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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What did Irish Water tell him?

Photo of Barry CowenBarry Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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If Fine Gael had voted for the Bill, the problem would have been solved.

Photo of James BannonJames Bannon (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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I am pleased that this will be happening. The people want to see continued improvement of drinking water quality.

During the years I served as chair of many group water schemes. It was quantity, not quality, that people wanted, but I am pleased to say we have moved on and now it is quality water that people want. Modernising the delivery of water services is a key priority for me and the Government, one on which it is delivering. That is annoying to those in the Fianna Fáil Party because they were in power for a great many years and did sweet damn all to improve water quality.

Photo of Éamon Ó CuívÉamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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What about the figure of €4 billion?

Photo of James BannonJames Bannon (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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Thus far the Government has had three key objectives in the reform programme to improve water quality. The first was the establishment of Irish Water as the State-owned utility responsible for water services.

Photo of Robert TroyRobert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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A €180 million quango.

Photo of James BannonJames Bannon (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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Second, the Commission for Energy Regulation will act as the economic regulator for Irish Water. This will ensure the Irish Water charges plan will be subject to the approval of the commission. Third, this legislation allows for the establishment of a sustainable funding model for Irish Water.

I have always stated my belief that reform of water services is crucial for economic growth. For example, we have seen the creation of 1,200 jobs under the metering programme. I have no doubt that it will attract investment to Ireland, particularly the midlands, in water intensive industries such as information and communications technology and pharma-chemical companies.

Increased investment in infrastructure will create much-needed employment. It is welcome that this legislation makes provision for the Government to issue a policy direction to the Commission for Energy Regulation in respect of the performance of its functions. I specifically draw attention to the water charges plan. The policy direction provides that the Commission for Energy Regulation must, in approving the plan, make provision for households which receive a poor quality water supply. It also provides for the provision of free allowances for households. The free allowance for children is a clear-cut example of how the Government is working towards making water charges as fair and equitable as possible.

It will be based on the average water consumption level of children. The allowance of 21,000 litres is based on the most up-to-date data available and will be monitored by the Commission for Energy Regulation, CER, to ensure that children continue to receive free water.

There are many other clear examples of how charges will be balanced and well intentioned. There have been clear indications that the water charges plan will make provision for households with a poor quality of supply. In its recent consultations, the CER proposed that households with a poor quality of supply for less than three months will receive 50% discounts on their charges while households with a poor quality of supply for more than three months will receive 100% discounts. Currently, 31 public water supplies are under restriction, affecting approximately 26,000 people nationwide. These include 20 schemes with boil water notices. Under the CER's draft proposals, 18 of these would receive 100% discounts on their water supply charges.

As a midlands Deputy, I know all too well about how Roscommon has been one of the worst affected counties. Deputy Feighan outlined the situation. I am pleased to see that all eight of Roscommon's schemes fall under the CER's 100% discount proposal. I support this proposal and urge the CER to implement it when making a final determination later this month.

The Government has worked hard to ensure that the introduction of water charges is as fair and equitable as possible. I have outlined examples of this, but I will use my remaining time to highlight a particular issue that is close to my heart. Will the Minister, Deputy Kelly, ensure that Alzheimer's disease and other related dementias are included on the list of medical conditions for which water charges will be capped? Dementia-related diseases affect many families throughout Ireland and, in many cases, require round-the-clock care and supervision. As a result of these conditions, many people are confined to their homes, which would clearly lead to a higher usage of water. The nature of these conditions also means that many people could easily leave taps on and run up astronomical bills through no fault of their own. Some provision should also be made for accidental leaks, particularly in times of frost and hard weather.

We have worked hard to make this legislation rational and fair. The Government should take the final steps and ensure that people with medical and mental illnesses are properly cared for. Home owners must also be protected by ensuring that no additional costs will be incurred as a result of burst pipes or accidental leaks.

The harvesting of water from industrial and farm sheds is a matter that is dear to me. Grant assistance should be made available for this type of venture on every farm. I hope that the Ministers for Agriculture, Food and the Marine and the Environment, Community and Local Government will provide for such ventures under the rural development programme.

1:25 pm

Photo of Seán KennySeán Kenny (Dublin North East, Labour)
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I understand there will be five Deputies from Fianna Fáil sharing the next time slot, namely, Deputies Kitt, Ó Cuív, Sean Fleming, Troy and McConalogue for five, ten, five, five and five minutes, respectively. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Photo of Michael KittMichael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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I commend Deputy Cowen on this Bill. While I enjoyed Deputy Durkan's interesting contribution, he was wrong in his comment on the charges. It is my understanding that the Fine Gael-Labour Government abolished water charges while forgetting about group water schemes. It took the former Minister and Deputy, Mr. Noel Dempsey, to introduce a subsidy for water schemes to ensure equality and equity across the country and to help people in rural Ireland.

The current Government has put the cart before the horse by introducing a regime of water charges before bringing the water network up to standard. The Bill proposes a simple measure, namely, that it would be illegal to charge for a service that did not deliver. This proposal should be supported. In County Roscommon alone, 21,000 people are living under a boil water notice. Across Ireland, the figure is approximately 36,000 homes. Families that have been dealing with the situation for many years are upset that this unfair system will be introduced.

The Bill introduced by Deputy Cowen is based on the principle of fairness. It is not just a question of substandard and dangerous supplies of water that need to be brought up to standard, but of the additional financial burden of buying drinking water on a daily basis. That water charges must also be paid is too much for hard-pressed families to bear.

Alongside the situation in Roscommon, I should highlight an issue in Galway, albeit one that does not relate to substandard water supplies. A headline inThe Connacht Tribuneon 12 September read: "No water - but here's your bill anyway". The article continued: "Residents in an East Galway village were furious to have received a notice from Irish Water asking for €100 per house ... for a supply that they do not have. And many residents contacted by The Connacht Tribune have vowed not to pay a penny to Irish Water as they are not connected to any scheme." The campaign to get a public water supply for Kilrickle has been ongoing for a number of years. Some of its residents collect rainfall while others have drilled their own wells. Like the people of Roscommon, they must buy water on a weekly basis. The bills from Irish Water were the ultimate slap in the face. There were proposals to bring water to Kilrickle from the Loughrea scheme, but there has been a great deal of confusion about the cost involved. This issue boils down to the fact that householders in Kilrickle must fend for themselves.

I also noted in last week's edition of The Connacht Tribunethat the Society of St. Vincent de Paul mentioned how people were unable to pay water charges. The society referred to the fact that the €240 promise made by the Government before the May election had increased by 20% to €278. The overall average cost to households will be €594. There is a general concern throughout the country that, if the public subsidy is steadily reduced, home owners will need to pay more every year.

The group water scheme movement and its organisers are concerned about the lack of clarity concerning their operations. The group scheme system has been strong in the west, with generous grants from the EU and the Department. However, if Irish Water must now supply water where no scheme is in existence, it begs the question of what will happen and whether money will be available to take over group schemes or provide water from public schemes.

The charge per litre is one of the highest in Europe. This is a source of concern. The Society of St. Vincent de Paul also made the point that the household benefit package was not targeted towards vulnerable people. The society believes that assistance should be directed to those who are in receipt of fuel allowance payments, thereby helping the elderly, the unemployed, one-parent families and people in receipt of disability allowance payments. This point was also made by the ESRI.

Clarity is needed in respect of charges where there is a substandard water supply and those that will apply to people with medical conditions. Irish Water has said there will be a 50% discount on the net bill for such people and the regulator has talked about a three-month threshold. The question of 12,000 households coming off boil-water notices this year is something that should be clarified, and we need more details on that.

1:35 pm

Photo of Éamon Ó CuívÉamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Having heard Deputy Durkan's contribution, I am tempted to respond in kind. His contribution was typical of members of the current regime who believe that if one can make a political point one need not mind about the truth. The simple fact of the matter is that time and again people such as myself spoke about the need to protect our water sources. What we said was unfair - this was finally accepted by the previous Minister - was that where one's source is the public mains system - that is, a public sewer or a public water supply - the cost is borne by the State by way of the taxpayer, including those taxpayers who do not have public wastewater systems, but under the former Minister's initial proposals for upgrading wastewater systems, the people of rural Ireland were expected to foot the total bill. We said there was a fundamental injustice involved and that if the State afforded assistance by way of providing funding for wastewater systems in towns and cities and for people on the public mains system, it should afford the same provision for people in rural Ireland. Eventually, after a long struggle, the former Minister met us some of the way. I am big enough, unlike Deputy Durkan, to admit that he came some of the way, although he did not come the full way. There are still huge anomalies in the scheme he introduced.

There is an issue that the Minister of State should address. It is ironic that if one has a substandard private wastewater system and wants to upgrade it, one will not get a grant for upgrading it, even though one knows the system is substandard, until the local authority decides to inspect it. In other words, if the local authority does not select a particular person's system for inspection, that person cannot get assistance to upgrade, even though he or she may know the system does not pass muster. That seems rather bizarre, because anybody who has a substandard system should be assisted in upgrading it. He or she should not have to wait for an inspection to take place, thereby prolonging the period during which there is the potential for groundwater pollution.

It is amazing that Deputy Durkan did not address the issue of the bill. The bill is a basic premise of most businesses. If one receives a faulty service or does not get a service, one does not pay for it. That is a very basic principle. Deputy Durkan seemed to think that it was outrageous of Fianna Fáil to state what should happen if one has a bad water supply and has to buy drinking water because the water quality is not up to standard. He seemed to say that people should be forced to pay for a product that is not up to standard. Does anybody here know anybody who would buy a faulty product, knowing it was faulty, and be forced to pay for it or be willing to pay for it? The simple answer to that is "No." What Deputy Cowen's Bill proposes is quite simple - namely, that people who are provided with a substandard product should not pay for it. A substandard product is one that is not fit for the purpose for which it is designed. If there are boil-water notices in some areas, it is clear that the water supply in those areas is not fit for purpose.

If this Bill is introduced, we will find that within a year or two Uisce Éireann will have deployed the resources to where they are needed to resolve these problems. However, if we do not go down this route, Uisce Éireann will say that these are areas of low population density and that there are more urgent things to be done - let us forget about them and put them on the back boiler. Promises are being made by the Government. One day it says that the Commissioner for Energy Regulation will decide these matters, while another day it says it will do this and that. The simple fact of the matter is that if the Government accepted this legislation, the CER would have to accept it because it would be the law of the land. It would provide certainty to people into the future, which is very important.

Ba mhaith liom díriú ar cheist eile nach bhfuil mórán caint air sna meáin, ait go leor, is é sin an fhadhb a bhí ann i gcaith an samhraidh ar Inis Meáin agus Inis Oírr, áit a bhfuil na mílte míle euro á caith ag tógáil uisce isteach ar bháid chuile lá. Dhá bhád, lá le huisce, ceann acu ag dul chuig Inis Meáin agus ceann ag dul chuig Inis Oírr, mar nach bhfuil dóthain uisce ar na hoileáin sin. Go mór mhór i gcás Inis Oírr, bhí tacaíocht bhreise curtha ar fáil ag an Rialtas deireanach. D’oibrigh sin ar feadh deich mbliana. Ní raibh ciondáil uisce ar an oileán mar ghnáth chuid laethúil d’obair dhaoine i rith an achair sin. Ansin tháinig athrú ar an gcóras i mbliana agus cuireadh córas nua isteach atá ag cur go leor uisce amú. Dá bharr sin, ar oileán atá ag braith go hiomlán i rith an tsamhraidh ar thurasóireacht, níl aon uisce ó 6 um thráthnóna go dtí 8 ar maidin, mí i ndiaidh míosa. Níor tharla seo ar feadh seachtaine nó ar feadh coicíse. Tá sé ag tarlúint ar feadh an tsamhraidh. Tá sé fíorphráinneach anois go dtiocfadh an tAire nó an tAire Stáit, an Teachta Joe McHugh, agus Uisce Éireann le chéile chun staidéar sciobtha a dhéanamh ar an bhfadhb agus réiteach a fháil agus a chinntiú go mbeidh uisce ar na hoileáin. Beidh sé mícheart a bheith ag gearradh táille uisce ar theaghlaigh na n-oileán de bharr na heaspa uisce atá ar na hoileáin agus ní ceart táillí a ghearradh ar ghnó ar na hoileáin go dtí go mbeidh an fhadhb seo réitithe. An féidir a shamhlú duine ag iarraidh bialann a rith gan uisce a bheith ar fáil tar éis a sé a chlog um thráthnóna? Ní féidir gnó a rith ar an mbealach sin. Fós féin, beidh Uisce Éireann ag iarraidh táillí uisce.

Nuair a bheidh an tAire ag caint ag an deireadh b’fhéidir go mbeidh sé in ann a dheimhniú, ar a laghad go ndéanfaidh sé fiosrúcháin maidir leis an scéal agus go ndéanfaidh sé scrúdú, go suífidh sé síos leis an Aire Stáit, an Teachta Joe McHugh, le pobal an dá oileán agus go dtiocfaidh siad ar réiteach na faidhbe seo.

Beidh mé ag siúl le haisfhreagra ón Aire inniu nó go luath ar an gceist seo. Leanfaidh mé liom ag cur brú maidir leis an gceist go dtí go dtiocfar ar réiteach.

Those in the party that sits to the right of us here think we should charge for nothing and that there should be no limit to services provided, but they never tell us where they will get the money to fund them. There are two parties sitting on this side of the House who do not realise that the effect of the burden on citizens results from the cumulative bills they get and not each individual bill. The accumulation of the local property tax and water charges will put an imposition on low-income families that many cannot afford. The local property tax is higher in cities. It is often higher for people who may not have a large income but happen to live in an area where houses are valuable for historic reasons. It is indiscriminate. The reality is that the Government has not been willing to face these facts. The Government said there would be a 15% decrease in the local property tax, but then it made sure there was no money to implement that provision.

Photo of Paudie CoffeyPaudie Coffey (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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That is not true.

Photo of Éamon Ó CuívÉamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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It is true.

Photo of Seán KennySeán Kenny (Dublin North East, Labour)
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Can we have some order, please? Deputy Ó Cuív is contributing.

1:45 pm

Photo of Éamon Ó CuívÉamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Was that the view of the Labour Party? It should be remembered that every member of Government is bound constitutionally to collective action. We cannot have one party in government saying one thing, constitutionally, and the other saying something else. It is time the parties in government woke up to their constitutional responsibilities. According to members opposite, we have turned the corner and there are billions of euro available to give out. Why not start with abolition of the two most recently imposed charges - namely, water charges and the local property tax?

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I thank my colleague Deputy Cowen for introducing this legislation on an issue which affects everybody and not only those entitled to exemptions in respect of poor-quality water supply. The issue of water charges is one that affects every household in the country. It is an issue that the people are watching closely. The manner in which Irish Water and the regulator handle the particular issues of concern today will be indicative of how they propose to deal with customers and the people of Ireland in the years to come. Simply put, if the product is not safe the customer should not have to pay for it. I do not believe any reasonable person would accept that people should have to pay for an unsafe product.

The Bill before us proposes exemptions from charges in particular circumstances. Government speakers have used the word "discount" in respect of boil-water notices that are in place for a three- or six-month period. Reference was also made to the possibility of 100% compensation in relation to the charge where a boil-water notice has been in place for a considerable time. However, it is proposed that the 50% discount will apply in respect of water coming into the house and not in respect of the overall bill. The regulator has not been clear or helpful in this regard. I recently read the regulator's commentary on this issue, in which he says that only 15% of water is for drinking purposes. He appeared to be almost begrudging any discount beyond that. The regulator states in his report that to give more than a 15% discount would be to ask other water users to subsidise those people in receipt of that discount. The regulator is not on the side of the people. He is a tool of the Government and Irish Water. Before even commencing work in this area, he has failed. He is not looking after the interests of the people or their health and safety. As well as being the regulator for water services, he is also the regulator of the electricity market. One can imagine the view that would be taken of an unsafe supply of electricity to people's homes, which could result in severe damage to people and their homes. It is the function of the regulator to address these issues and, in that regard, to put customers first. The need to ensure customers are looked after appears to have escaped everybody involved in this issue.

Simply put, if the product is bad there should be no charge for it. All the Government has succeeded in doing over the past two days is - pardon the pun - to muddy the waters. Much of our water is not fit for consumption. By the time this Government is finished, it will be even muddier. I do not believe, as we conclude this debate today, that anybody will be aware of the outcome of this issue. The Taoiseach and Ministers have stated that the regulator will issue a report in a few weeks' time. Whether the Government hopes to use its muscle to get the regulator to do its bidding, I do not know. If the debate on this Bill has forced the Government to put pressure on the regulator, who up to now has not being doing his job in this area, it will have been a good three hours' work. As I said, the regulator has made only token or minimal changes to the proposals from Irish Water.

Another issue about which I am concerned is the question of access by Irish Water to the Department of Social Protection database and children's PPS numbers. In response to a question asked by me last May, the Government stated that households would receive an additional free allowance for each child under 18 years of age, aligned with entitlement to child benefit. On 15 May, I wrote a letter in this regard to Mr. Billy Hawkes, the Data Protection Commissioner. Unfortunately, as I received no reply to that letter, I had to write to him again on 18 July. The Data Protection Commissioner replied on 29 July to the effect that his office has been in discussions with Irish Water with a view to ensuring that only the minimum amount of information should be sought by it from the Department of Social Protection. According to the Data Protection Commissioner, Irish Water will use the PPS numbers to interrogate the Department of Social Protection child benefit database to determine on a yes-or-no basis whether a child is in receipt of benefit and thus qualifies for the free water allowance. In the view of the Data Protection Commissioner, this means Irish Water will not have direct access to personal information. However, in my view it is not satisfactory that Irish Water, a commercial company, will have access to the child benefit database records, as confirmed by the Data Protection Commissioner. The commissioner should ensure that the opposite is the case - namely, Irish Water should request the information from the Department, which should have overall responsibility for providing it. Irish Water should not have access to Department of Social Protection databases.

I have previously asked the Minister about the transfer of assets and liabilities to Irish Water. In response to a parliamentary question yesterday, the Minister said that when the result of the due diligence exercise was known, the opening balance sheet take-on from local authorities would be known, including the assets, debtors among non-domestic users and financial liabilities. Irish Water has been up and running since 1 January last, yet it does not know its liabilities or assets. I believe that in not knowing its own financial situation it is trading fraudulently.

Photo of Robert TroyRobert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the opportunity to contribute to this important debate, which is timely when one considers that in the next few weeks people the length and breadth of this country will for the first time ever be billed for water.

It was interesting to hear members of Government highlight and confirm in their contributions last night that the proposed water charges are too high. They are correct. Prior to the local elections in May a charge of approximately €240 per annum for a household with two adults was advocated. The estimated charge is now €278 per annum, which is an increase of 20% on the previous figure. A household of two adults and two children in third level education will pay approximately €500 per annum, which will mean an additional €10 per week for each family, many of whom cannot afford it. Why are the charges so high? They are high because money is needed to fund the super-quango that is Irish Water, a quango established at a cost of €180 million and at a time when this Government, upon taking office, promised it would abolish all sorts of quangos. The 2011 PricewaterhouseCoopers report commissioned by the Government advised against the use of an existing State agency such as Bord Gáis as it would incur costs owing to the level of external support required to plan, manage and execute the integration of Irish Water into an existing utility. The Government went against the explicit advice of its commissioned PricewaterhouseCoopers report.

I would now like to focus on the issue before us today and the proposed charges for poor-quality water supply to more than 30,000 households across Ireland. Deputy Feighan is correct that €17 million was made available to County Roscommon. We welcome that, but what have the people of Roscommon had to put up with over the past number of years? Previous speakers said there had been no capital investment in the area. That is wrong. In the period from 2000 to 2010, €4.6 billion was invested in improving the infrastructure of the water network. My question to the Government is this: what does it have against the people of Roscommon? Last night, the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, Deputy Kelly, said that they need not worry because the draft water plan would be finalised by the Commissioner for Energy Regulation in the next number of weeks. This morning, Elizabeth Arnett, head of communications at Irish Water, said there was nothing new in what was proposed and that water charges had been known since August 2014.

2 o’clock

Is it not amazing that the Government chose the bank holiday weekend to publish the draft pricing? It sought submissions during the month when the Dáil was in recess and when most people in the State take their annual leave. Is it not quite amazing to come in here and listen to the likes of Deputy Bannon urging the CER to listen? He said he had made a submission. I remind Deputy Bannon that he is not on Longford County Council anymore and that he is a member of a Government party. As Deputy Feighan said, we live in a democracy. The people of this country put their faith and trust in Fine Gael and the Labour Party in 2011 to govern and implement national policy decisions. The Government will have an opportunity in less than 20 minutes to implement legislation that will ensure people who cannot brush their teeth, drink a glass of water to take their medication or make a cup of tea because of substandard water coming out of their taps will have their problems addressed. We are not saying water should be free for everybody; what we, including Deputy Cowen, are saying through this small Bill is that we should ensure that when there is not high-quality water coming out of the taps, people will not have to pay for it. This is quite fair.

It is incredible to listen to Government Deputies questioning the rationale of what is quite logical legislation. If tomorrow one bought a car that did not work, one would go back to the garage to get one's money back. One does not pay for something that does not work, and one does not pay for substandard produce. Why should the 21,000 people in Roscommon, the people in Newtowncashel in County Longford or others on the island pay for a service that they cannot utilise?

1:55 pm

Photo of Charlie McConalogueCharlie McConalogue (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
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I join my colleagues in supporting this Bill, introduced to the Dáil by Deputy Barry Cowen. The Bill, which is very appropriate, deals with one aspect of the unfair charges that the public will experience as a result of the approach the Government is taking. Rightly, it deals with the matter on the floor of the House, where we are actually getting a chance to debate the charging structure. The Government of which the Minister of State, Deputy Coffey, is a member has not given the Oireachtas, including the committees, the opportunity to do so properly. Instead, we have seen the Government devolve responsibility for setting the costs that the public will face to the CER. This has been a standard tactic adopted by the Government regarding some very serious issues. Instead of taking responsibility and getting rid of many quangos, as it promised to do, it has reverted to default mode. Thus, instead of taking responsibility for certain actions itself, it has given responsibility to another body. We hear about this repeatedly on the floor of the Dáil, as we did this morning from the Tánaiste. We are told our question is not for the Government to answer but for the CER, which will be publishing its report in the coming months.

Unfortunately, when the Government takes big decisions, as on the charging structure, it times its announcements to avoid scrutiny as much as possible. When it introduced its Bill for the first time, it was rammed through the Dáil in a matter of a day and guillotined without an appropriate opportunity for debate. When it introduced the charging structure, it did so over a bank holiday weekend in August, again to avoid scrutiny as much as possible. This morning our party leader, Deputy Micheál Martin, called for a framework for affordability to be brought into play to assist families across the country who dread the introduction of the charges and who, over recent months, have been wondering how on earth they will be able to afford another bill.

The best the Tánaiste could offer this morning was to indicate that there would be an assistance payment of €100 per household towards the cost. Despite this, the water cost for a one-person household, for example, will be €176, and for a five-person household it will be up to €584. The Tánaiste whimsically dismisses genuine concerns over the fairness of this and the ability of families to pay for water with the response that the €100 will be of massive assistance to them. The assistance payment of €100 will not go very far towards meeting the cost faced by families with five adults.

Unfortunately, this is a trend we have seen from the Government, despite the fact that it has consistently referred to how the economy is starting to improve. This is something we all want to work towards, but the reality of the policies the Government has implemented is that many of the most hard-pressed have taken a large part of the burden. Appropriate attention or priority has not been given by the Government to trying to ensure that those who cannot afford to pay and those who are most burdened will be assisted and protected. We witness this not only in regard to water charges but also in regard to school charges, for example. As my party spokesperson on education, I am more aware than anyone of the impact of cuts to schools' budgets. The schools have had to go back to families and ask them to fund-raise instead. This is another example of how the burden has been placed on families with the highest costs and the least money to meet them.

Consider the logic of the Government's investment of so much in metering and in Irish Water. We note that a total of €85 million will have been spent on consultant reports between now and the end of 2015. This concerns matters that do not have a direct impact on investment in our water infrastructure or network. It makes no difference whatsoever to it. Surely at this point, given our current environment, the money would have been better spent on infrastructure.

Deputy Barry Cowen's Bill is very sensible. It makes a very straightforward request, namely that those who are not getting water of appropriate quality or are getting water that is dangerous to drink, thereby costing them money, be exempt from having to pay water charges. I endorse the Bill and encourage support for it across the House.

Photo of Paudie CoffeyPaudie Coffey (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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I thank all the Members who contributed to this debate last night and today. As the Minister, Deputy Alan Kelly, outlined last night, the Government cannot support the Bill tabled by Deputy Cowen. We appreciate that the intention of the Bill is to provide discounts for customers affected by sub-standard water supplies. However, as the Minister outlined last night, the legislative and policy framework put in place by the Government already provides a very robust and flexible system to ensure that Irish Water's customers are protected, and arrangements to provide discounts for customers affected by sub-standard water supplies are at an advanced stage.

The CER has been given the role of independent economic regulator for Irish Water, and its primary statutory purpose is to ensure the protection of customers' interests. This is underpinned in statute. Section 39(1) of the Water Services (No. 2) Act 2013 provides that the commission shall perform its functions in a manner that best serves the interests of customers of Irish Water. Section 21 of this same Act provides that Irish Water's charges are subject to the approval of the regulator. In July, the CER undertook public consultation on Irish Water's charges to provide the public, and public representatives, with an opportunity to make their views known before the approval of the final plan toward the end of this month. Among the measures announced were proposals to address the very issue dealt with in this Bill.

Section 42 of the 2013 Act provides that the Minister for the Environment may issue a general policy direction to the CER. A policy direction was issued by the previous Minister to the CER in July 2014, taking account of decisions the Government had taken in regard to allowances, customer protection and affordability. In its consultation documents, the CER proposed that households in receipt of a restricted supply for more than three months would receive a 100% discount on their water supply charge, with those under restrictions for less than three months receiving a 50% discount. As the Minister stated last night, the effect of these proposals would be that all households currently on long-term boil-water notices would be eligible for the 100% discount from 1 October. Details of the final arrangements for the discounts to be applied will be announced by the CER as part of its determination of the overall water charges plan.

This is expected by the end of this month.

There are, regrettably, more than 25,000 people on public water supplies which are the subject of some form of restriction, including boil water notices. As part of its statutory monitoring responsibilities, where Irish Water, in consultation with the Health Service Executive, HSE, considers that a water supply is a potential risk to human health, it is required to ensure that the supply of such water is prohibited or its use is restricted and that consumers are informed promptly and given the necessary advice. Irish Water is taking action in this regard by prioritising drinking water quality as its main priority in its first interim investment plan, including an urgent focus on the provision of water treatment plants in County Roscommon and an action plan to address other water supply schemes in need of investment.

Although not directly relevant to Deputy Cowen's Bill, I wish to address an issue that was mentioned in the debate last night and in earlier exchanges yesterday. In the application packs that Irish Water has begun to send out, it is asking householders to provide their personal public service, PPS, numbers, including in respect of children. The purpose of this is to ensure that the free water allowance for primary residences and the additional allowance in respect of children's use of water that the Government is providing are allocated appropriately. Under section 20 of the Social Welfare and Pensions Act 2014, Irish Water is a specified body and is allowed to request PPS numbers to authenticate the identity of the person being provided with an allowance. It has stated its commitment to comply with all data protection legislation requirements.

I acknowledge Deputy Stanley's comments last night regarding the misinformation that is being peddled to the public about possible ways of avoiding water charges. It is important that this House condemns any irresponsible actions being advocated in regard to legislation that has been approved by the Oireachtas. I have seen public representatives encouraging non-payment not only of water charges but also of the local property tax. Indeed, some held public meetings to encourage this across the country, and then deserted those people. I believe that is totally irresponsible.

2:05 pm

Photo of Alan KellyAlan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Hear, hear.

Photo of Paudie CoffeyPaudie Coffey (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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I also wish to address another point raised during last night's debate. Deputy Cowen suggested that the establishment of Irish Water was a precursor to privatisation. To use a phrase employed by Deputy Cowen during his speech, it was like déjà vu again.

Photo of Seán KennySeán Kenny (Dublin North East, Labour)
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The Minister's time is concluded.

Photo of Paudie CoffeyPaudie Coffey (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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This issue has been raised previously and it has been shown to be without foundation. In fact, the position is laid down in statute. Section 46 of the Water Services Act (No. 2) 2013 expressly provides that neither the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government or the Minister for Finance nor Bord Gais Éireann, now entitled Ervia, can dispose of their shares in Irish Water. This provides a clear legal prohibition on the sale of Irish Water.

To conclude, as has been clearly outlined today and last night, the policy and legislative framework the Government has already put in place addresses the objectives of this Bill in a more comprehensive and, indeed, flexible manner. On that basis, the Government is opposing the Bill.

Photo of Seán KennySeán Kenny (Dublin North East, Labour)
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The remaining speakers are Deputies Brendan Smith and Barry Cowen. As the debate must conclude in ten minutes, they have five minutes each. Is that agreed?

Photo of Brendan SmithBrendan Smith (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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The Acting Chairman could extend it by a few minutes. Everybody else got an extra minute or so of injury time.

Photo of Seán KennySeán Kenny (Dublin North East, Labour)
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Members on both sides of the House go over their time and they were warned about that.

Photo of Brendan SmithBrendan Smith (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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The concluding speaker should not be denied a minute or two.

Photo of Seán KennySeán Kenny (Dublin North East, Labour)
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The Standing Orders provide for it and I have been reminded of that.

Photo of Brendan SmithBrendan Smith (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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The Standing Orders should be implemented throughout the debate. However, I will proceed.

First, I congratulate the Minister, Deputy Kelly, and the Minister of State, Deputy Coffey, on their appointment and wish them well in the Department.

I welcome this important legislation introduced by Deputy Cowen, which provides that homeowners will have absolute assurance that they will not have to pay for a water supply that is contaminated. Ensuring that the onus is put on a public utility to provide a service that meets the required standards is a basic way of doing business. Irish Water will control an overwhelming part of the water supply to households, businesses, farms, public institutions and community facilities, and the proposals for charging for water are deeply unfair. It is abundantly clear that the network should be brought up to the required standards before households with substandard supplies are obliged to pay substantial charges for a product that is inferior.

Water charges will be collected from 1 October, with bills due in January 2015. Our party's spokesperson, Deputy Barry Cowen, made a detailed submission to the regulator, along with this legislation. It our basic contention that it should not be possible for Uisce Éireann to charge for a contaminated water supply. Try to explain to a hard-pressed household that it must pay the charge, which will be considerable, not for water that is not for consumption but for wastewater. Any fair minded individual will understand the anger, annoyance and frustration of such a household.

The energy regulator has denied any confirmation of the recent claims by Fine Gael relating to water-in and water-out contentions. This legislation brings absolute clarity and provides a way to deal properly with this issue. It is an issue that constituents bring to our attention as they require clarity about it. People are understandably very concerned about these new charges and the imposition of new additional costs on households, so there is an onus on the Government to ensure at least some fairness. If enacted, this legislation would ensure fairness. Apart from a partial payment by householders for contaminated supplies, those households have the considerable additional expenditure of purchasing bottled water, which is not cheap by any means. Public expenditure and the generation of revenue should be predicated on fairness. Fairness should be at the heart of central and local government decision making.

I wish to respond to a narrative that has been promoted by the Government in the last year or two, that there was a lack of investment in the period from 2000 to 2010. Almost €5 billion in public expenditure was provided by the Fianna Fáil Government for the upgrade and preservation of our water services during that period.

I refer to a matter which the Minister might clarify at some point in the future. I also raised it with his predecessor. It is the continuation of the subsidy for rural group water schemes. Thankfully, Fianna Fáil in government put in place a massive rural water upgrade programme. It encompassed not just rural group water schemes but also the schemes for smaller towns and villages. We must have an assurance that the subsidy, which is so important and was paid through the local authorities, will be continued and that a system of ensuring that rural households are not discriminated against will be put in place. Perhaps the Minister or Minister of State might reply to that concern.

I regret I do not have more time to speak but I will hand over to my colleague.

Photo of Seán KennySeán Kenny (Dublin North East, Labour)
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Deputy Cowen has five minutes.

Photo of Barry CowenBarry Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I am mindful of the fact that the Tánaiste was a couple of minutes late today, but we did not seek to restrain her in what she had to say.

I omitted to congratulate the Minister of State, Deputy Coffey, last night. I congratulate him now and wish him every success. He is a well respected Member of the House and I have no doubt he will give his all in that post.

I thank all Members for their contributions on the Bill. One of the most recent speakers, Deputy Bannon, summed up the content of the Bill, perhaps unconsciously from his perspective. He referred to the recent boil notice that was placed on the townspeople of Newtowncashel and said the first thing he could do was contact the CER and, as Deputy Troy said, urge that office to do something to help those people. The only thing he can do to help those people immediately is vote for this Bill today. If the House voted for this Bill, there would be no charge for dirty water going into any house. Nobody would be expected to pay to wash their children or their dishes in cryptosporidium infested water. That is the bottom line. I do not think Deputy Bannon realised it when he said it, but if he really wanted to do something for those people, or anybody else, he would vote for this legislation today. He could do something for them immediately, and they would not be charged from 1 October for the dirty water they are receiving.

We have heard various concerns. Deputy McGrath, for example, spoke about students over 18 years of age being charged the full rate. The Minister referred to the fact that the PPS numbers are being sought to establish that a household would have an allowance.

It does not matter if there is one, ten or 20 in a house. There is a household allowance and that is all there is about it. As we know, the PPS number is being sought to correlate it with the Department of Social Protection in order to see who is in receipt of child benefit and who is not. It is as simple as that.

Deputy Dara Calleary pointed to his fears which are shared by many about the consumer protection Act 1980 and noted that there might be contradictions in the Water Services Act. That leaves people open to going to court to test the validity of what is contained in the policy direction given by the Government and also its implementation by the CER.

Deputy Seán Ó Fearghaíl mentioned that, despite the best intentions and a commitment from the Minister and Bord Gáis at the time that a national audit would be carried out by the new body in order to ascertain the level of the programme in the coming years to deal with the issue of leakages throughout the system - as we are reminded so often, there is a 40% deficit - such an audit had yet to be produced and there was no roadmap for how that issue might be dealt with.

Deputy Michelle Mulherin said, from the Government benches, that she had great fears about the proposed charges and their excessive nature and that they were not affordable for many in County Mayo. I remind her that they are not affordable for many throughout the country, let alone County Mayo. Given the great level of Government representation in the county, one would have thought they would have had their fingers more on the pulse and devised a mechanism to ensure they would not hit people as hard as they will.

We heard a speech last night from the Minister with responsibility for this area, although that might no longer be the case, given that one of his first actions on being appointed was to hand over responsibility to the Department of Finance on the basis that the collection of water charges was a revenue generating exercise. That has been the modus operandi of the Government from day one, namely, the rush to charge. In that rush to charge, however, it has made many mistakes and incurred much expense for the State. This is another. The Minister read from his script last night when he gave us the history of the process by which the Water Services (No. 1) Bill and the Water Services (No. 2) Bill were brought before the House. I remind him that, in line with his efforts to explain it in the little time available to him last night, his party gave little time for the passage of that legislation because the debates on it were guillotined within an hour or so of its presentation. That is the response and attitude of the Government when Opposition Members wish to properly scrutinise such legislation.

I want to raise another issue that was raised during the debate and which was also raised this morning by a spokesperson for Irish Water who, as Deputy Robert Troy said, informed the nation that, irrespective of what we might have heard in the Minister's speech last night, nothing new was contained within it. Irish Water had sought from the CER a six-month allowance and for people to pay for up to six months in the case of a boil water notice, irrespective of the quality of the water provided. The period is three months and it has not changed. Nothing the Minister said last night was different from what we had heard before.

Persons in receipt of the application forms are asked to inform Irish Water if they believe they have a medical condition that might necessitate the excessive use of water, for which there should be some allowance. I have asked this question specifically in the last six months. I asked the then Minister, Mr. Phil Hogan, if he had met his then counterpart in the Department of Health, Deputy James Reilly, to discuss the issue and instruct his officials to devise a mechanism by which those with medical ailments who needed a larger supply of water would be compensated in any recommended pricing structure.

2:15 pm

Photo of Seán KennySeán Kenny (Dublin North East, Labour)
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The Deputy should conclude.

Photo of Barry CowenBarry Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Irish Water was again asked this morning to wing it because no record of such a consultation has been made available, published or given to the House, despite the fact that, as usual, the charges will be railroaded through next week in the absence of that information, among many other things. I ask for the support of all Members of the House, including those of my own party, obviously, but more particularly those such as Deputies Michelle Mulherin, James Bannon and others who said they had issues with the legislation governing this matter. The only way they can have them addressed today and for all time is by supporting the motion.

Question put:

The Dáil divided: Tá, 40; Níl, 69.


Tellers: Tá, Deputies Paul Kehoe and Emmet Stagg; Níl, Seán Ó Fearghaíl and Aonghus Ó Snodaigh.

Níl

Question declared lost.