Mick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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9. To ask the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform the reason absence due to pregnancy-related illness is counted as sick leave in the public service sick leave scheme; if he will acknowledge the discriminatory impact this has on women workers; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [29684/14]

Mick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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This subject has already been discussed. I am surprised the questions were not grouped. The kernel of this problem is that it seems strange to me that if it is not discriminatory to women given that men are not in as vulnerable a position-----

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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They do not get pregnant.

Mick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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The Minister says that if there is a critical illness protocol in place they could be taken care of if they contract a serious illness later. If they get the flu or some other sickness but are not in hospital for two weeks surely they will be in a very difficult position because of this arrangement. Has the Minister considered introducing more flexible work practices which could address part of the problem?

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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There is no grouping of questions at the moment. Each Deputy gets a reply from the line Minister.

Mick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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Have they been done away with?

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Yes at the moment. The Ceann Comhairle decided on that.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Everybody gets their own outing now, even if it is the same question.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Everybody’s question is replied to by the line Minister.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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The need to protect and support women during pregnancy and ensure that they are not discriminated against is a priority strongly reflected in the design of the new public service sick leave scheme.  We brought this to the Labour Court and specifically asked it to consider additional protection for women.

The new scheme operates strictly in accordance with the European Court of Justice ruling which establishes what constitutes, and perhaps more specifically what does not constitute, discrimination in relation to the application of any sick leave provision.

Where a female employee goes sick with a pregnancy-related illness she will be treated the same as another employee until such time as she has exhausted her sick leave. At that point she will be given extra protection beyond what other employees would ordinarily get because she will not go below half pay for as long as she has a pregnancy-related illness.

Also reflecting the principles of EU law, the new sick leave scheme provides that any pregnancy-related absence for which a female employee has been paid at the half-rate will not count towards her overall sick leave limits - this is the four-year horizon instanced by Deputy Daly earlier - nor are any pregnancy-related illnesses counted in respect of eligibility for promotion and higher duty allowances.

I would also draw the Deputy's attention to the extra protections in the critical illness protocol which allow for an increase in access to paid sick leave and, by agreement with the Labour Court, provide specifically for pregnancy-related illnesses. Where a pregnancy-related illness is serious, it will be covered by that protocol.  One of the criteria for awarding the protocol more generally is two consecutive weeks of hospitalisation. However, this requirement is reduced to two days for pregnancy-related illness in accordance with a determination of the Labour Court. I will provide the Deputy with the reference for that judgment.

Mick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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We are not complaining about the sick leave they get while they are pregnant but about the fact it has the potential to eat into their sick leave over the four-year period ahead. The Minister may be aware that a survey carried out in Norway found that three quarters of pregnant women took sick leave from work but that this can be reduced through flexible work adjustments. Overall, 35% of women cited fatigue and sleep problems as the main reason for taking sick leave, followed closely by pelvic girdle pain and nausea or vomiting, with 32% and 23% of women suffering these symptoms respectively. The study also looked at work adjustments for pregnant women and found 60% of the 2,197 women surveyed reported having adjustments made to their working situation. On average, these women reported taking seven days less sick leave than those who went without job adjustments.

Does the Department have the potential to put in place a system where the employer is obliged to be more flexible with regard to pregnant women in order to deal with some of these problems?

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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The Deputy makes a very valid point and it is something I will re-examine on foot of this discussion. It has always been a point in regard to the delivery of public services that we have the maximum flexibility to allow for normal family pressures, probably better than is done in the private sector. I acknowledge much pressure has been put on that in the past few years because we have asked people to work additional hours and so on because of the financial crisis we have gone through. However, as we work our way out of that, I believe we can look specifically at the point the Deputy makes in regard to pregnant women in the public service. It is something I will look at.

Mick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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It is not a simple subject. Am I right in suspecting there is a lack of information for people around this whole subject? Is this an area that could be improved?

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Again, I believe the Deputy is right. There are new sick leave arrangements which we have spent a year and a half discussing with the unions and bringing through the Labour Court, and it was in the Labour Court right up to the end of last year. We then enacted specific legislation which we brought through the Houses in this regard. However, there are probably many public sector workers who are not as familiar with it as people who have been involved in the legislative process here or who have followed closely the work of the Labour Court. There is probably a job of work for both trade unions and employers in the public sector to better explain entitlements. Again, that is a point I will look at.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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This is one of the issues we debated when the Minister was conceiving this scheme. No part of the Minister's answer resolves the issue that a pregnant worker would have, for example, if she falls ill, takes her sick leave and clocks up more or and more of the leave for which she is eligible, with consequences further down the line. It is a genuine concern. I hope the Minister will take account of this in the annual review because it is important to get it right.

The Minister referred to the critical illness protocol a number of times as it would relate to a pregnant woman, and he mentioned the issue of two weeks hospitalisation as against two days hospitalisation. In the course of the debate, I specifically raised the issue with the Minister of postnatal depression because that would probably be the significant after-birth illness that would afflict many women, whereas it might not necessarily involve hospitalisation at all, much less for two days. Again in regard to the critical illness protocol, Deputy Daly mentioned somebody being hospitalised for pre-eclampsia. While that would not be regarded as a critical condition, it would be routinely screened for.

I can understand how women workers of child bearing age would have real concerns in this area. It is critical it gets a very specific focus when the Minister reviews this in March.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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One of the objectives we have is to allay fears and it is important that we give assurances rather than raise anxieties. I believe this will work out as a very fair scheme. We have specifically looked at the whole area of pregnancy-related illness as a unique set within the sick leave design generally. As I said in my first answer to Deputy Daly, when we have the review in 12 months time, we will probably have sufficient, if not an awful lot of, practical experience to look at any adjustments that might be necessary at that stage.