Dáil debates

Thursday, 26 June 2014

Topical Issue Debate

Pupil-Teacher Ratio

3:40 pm

Photo of Shane RossShane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
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This is the third time I have raised this subject in recent years. I do not do so on an ideological basis, although there is an ideology among those who for some reason wish to see the pupil-teacher ratio in fee-paying schools increase. There is a large body of opinion that the Government has simply got this wrong, because it sees private schools and fee-paying schools as an elite body who are determined to stay elite and somehow above other forms of education. That is not the case. What is wanted here is a degree of choice among people who save the State a large amount of money and who in many cases, although not all, make huge sacrifices to send their children to fee-paying schools. While some people spend their money on other luxuries, some of those parents who send their children to fee-paying schools are not able to do that because they have made a decision, which they are quite entitled to do, to send their children to fee-paying schools for all sorts of different reasons.

What I am looking for today is an assurance from the Minister of State that the pupil-teacher ratio in private schools will be reduced to ensure equality between fee-paying and non-fee-paying schools. This is a particularly sensitive issue among minority and Protestant schools. The Minister of State will be aware that parents wishing to have their children educated in the Protestant ethos or another ethos often have to send their children to boarding schools at great cost to themselves, in terms of the fees payable at those schools, and to the children, in terms of the pupil-teacher ratio therein, because often when the pupil-teacher ratio increases something has to give, and it is the children who suffer through a loss of facilities and so on, including extra-curricular facilities.

As the Minister of State will be aware, the pupil-teacher ratio in fee-paying schools was increased to 23:1 while that in the free education sector is 19:1. Parents are seeking an assurance that this trend has stopped and that it may well be possible in the next budget, given that times, we are told, are now more prosperous, to reverse it in order that the ethos of the Protestant schools and the rights of those who want to send their children to private schools are preserved. There is no reason there should be any difference between one type of school and another. Those who send their children to private schools, who may be misguided and should be allowed to be so misguided if they wish, are doing the State a favour in terms of the amount of money they save taxpayers. The result of the measures recently taken by the Government has been, as the Minister of State will be aware, the moving of several schools from the private to the public sector, again at great cost to the State. As a result of the increase in the pupil-teacher ratio, many schools, including Kilkenny College and St. Patrick's Cathedral grammar school, have moved against their will from one sector to the other at great cost to the State and great inconvenience to themselves.

3:50 pm

Photo of Joe CostelloJoe Costello (Dublin Central, Labour)
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I thank the Deputy for the opportunity to outline to the House the position with regard to the pupil-teacher ratio in fee-charging schools. At post-primary level, the State pays the salary of one teacher for every 23 pupils in fee-paying schools, compared with one teacher for every 19 pupils in schools in the free education scheme. A ratio of 18.25 pupils to one teacher applies in DEIS schools.

Currently, 52 of 723 post-primary schools charge fees, ranging from €2,550 to €10,065 for day pupils. Fee-charging schools have the resources, through fees charged, to employ teachers privately, an option which is not available to schools in the free education scheme. A departmental report analysing the tuition income of fee-charging schools which was published last year showed that the schools in question have available to them €81 million in discretionary income which is not available to schools in the free scheme.

I am aware that there are some concerns within the Church of Ireland community about the pupil-teacher ratio affecting fee-charging schools. The Government recognises the importance of ensuring that students from a Protestant or reformed church background can attend a school that reflects their denominational ethos, while at the same time ensuring that funding arrangements are in accordance with the provisions of the Constitution. How best to sustain education provision for widely dispersed and small local communities presents a particular challenge, especially in a locality where enrolment is declining to single figures. The Government is intent on fostering pluralism in school provision. Supporting small communities, including minorities, in maintaining their schools forms part of that policy.

With regard to the fee-charging Protestant schools, an arrangement exists whereby funding is provided by the Department to the Secondary Education Committee, SEC, an organisation run by the churches involved in managing the Protestant secondary schools. The SEC then disburses funds to the Protestant fee-charging schools on behalf of pupils who would otherwise have difficulty with the cost of fees and who, in the absence of such financial support, would be unable to attend a second-level school of a reformed church or Protestant ethos. Funding in this regard amounts to €6.5 million annually. This fund ensures that necessitous Protestant children can attend a school of their choice. I can confirm that Minister, Deputy Quinn, and relevant Department officials will continue to engage with the relevant education sector stakeholders, including the Church of Ireland and boards of education, in relation to education provision for all areas.

The budget for education, including the number of teaching posts that we can afford to fund in schools, is a matter that the Minister, with his colleagues in Cabinet, will have to consider in the context of the forthcoming budget. The Government will endeavour to protect front-line education services as best as possible. However, this must be done within the context of bringing our overall public expenditure into line with what we can afford as a country. The challenge will be to ensure that the resources that can be provided are used to maximum effect to achieve the best possible outcome for pupils.

Photo of Shane RossShane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
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I thank the Minister of State for his reply. I am sure he will understand when I say that sympathy is not enough. It is easy to say that one is well aware of the problem but that everything has to be considered within the context of overall cuts in public expenditure.

These private schools, including those of a non-Protestant or minority ethos, which have a special case to make, are fed up with the increases in the pupil-teacher ratio and are seeking an assurance that their choices will not be subject to any further attacks. At this stage they have had enough, and they contest vigorously the assertion that somehow there is an awful lot of money in their kitties. The Minister of State referred in his reply to the availability of €81 million in discretionary funding. There is no question of this money being available on a discretionary basis because no such basis exists in the context of hard-pressed education, where the money is being spent on necessities for pupils that would otherwise be provided by the State. It may be that that money is being earmarked for capital projects, but that is a compelling reason for its being available. That schools have a hoard of cash that they can use for any purpose is not true.

I do not believe the Minister of State has given me the assurance that the minority community is seeking. As recently as last month, the parents' spokeswoman for Protestant schools, Ms Eleanor Petrie, said:

Some of our schools are on a knife edge now. If the pupil teacher ratio goes up one more point more of them will go into the free scheme and that will end up costing the Department more money.
It will also probably lead to the dilution of an ethos which they value very dearly.

Photo of Joe CostelloJoe Costello (Dublin Central, Labour)
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I thank the Deputy for his supplementary remarks. There is no question of the State discriminating or seeking to discriminate against Protestant schools. Private schools are not only Protestant or reformed church schools; there are also private Catholic schools.

The current pupil-teacher ratio, despite having been increased in recent years, is still 23:1, as compared to 19:1 in the free secondary education sector. The gap is not an enormous one when one considers that all the private schools charge fees and have available to them an income stream in that regard, as well as from the discretionary income source of €81 million, although it may not all be discretionary income.

Some second level schools, such as Kilkenny College and, previously, Wilson's Hospital School, have demonstrated that they can maintain and promote their Church of Ireland ethos through the free second level scheme. There are five Protestant comprehensive schools that do not charge fees at all. Therefore, the position is not absolutely black and white. Every school has the option of entering the free second level scheme at any point in time. Many fee-paying schools have done so over the years. This option will be available in the future. The Department is always available to speak to and advise any school that wants to transition to the scheme. At present, I am not in a position to give any assurances on what may happen in the forthcoming budget.