Dáil debates

Thursday, 26 June 2014

Housing (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2014: Report Stage (Resumed)

 

Debate resumed on amendment No. 44:In page 72, after line 31, to insert the following:"Provision of housing units

59.In the provision of housing units, a local authority shall give priority to persons that have been responsible tenants in leased accommodation under the Rental Accommodation Scheme.".- (Deputy Seán Ó Fearghaíl).

11:40 am

Photo of Róisín ShortallRóisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Independent)
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I would like to make two further brief points on this issue. The Minister of State, Deputy Jan O'Sullivan, said the issue about which we are speaking was not raised on Second Stage. It was. I raised it, as I am sure other Deputies did. We queried it with the Minister of State and sought clarification on it. Also, whatever about the undertakings she is now giving, we have nothing in writing and certainly nothing in the legislation to support it.

Two years down the road, when somebody finds they have lost their place on the housing list, there will not be much point in quoting what a Minister said about it in June 2014 unless the matter is covered in the legislation or secondary legislation we will have seen. That has not happened to date.

It is really unfortunate that there is a problem with these provisions. Unfortunately, what should be a very positive scheme and what has been welcomed in other respects is turning into a negative one. Even if what the Minister of State has described happens and people go on the transfer list, it will not be a solution. It may be sufficient for people who are very far down the housing list but anybody occupying a reasonable position on the existing housing list will simply not opt for HAP because of the negative impact it will have on his or her chances of getting a council house, which is the ultimate aim of those on the housing list. Although the legislation should be providing a positive short-term to medium-term solution, it will be seen as negative. That is very unfortunate. For this reason, I strongly urge the Minister of State to drop the section or at least include the word "not" so people will not be deemed to have had their housing needs catered for.

What should be have been positive is turning into a strongly negative arrangement. This raises concerns that there is a very strong private sector influence on what the Government proposes to do. It leaves it open to the allegation that it is in the process of effectively privatising the social housing programme. That is a very retrograde step.

11:50 am

Photo of Catherine MurphyCatherine Murphy (Kildare North, Independent)
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I do not know why the Minister of State would be introducing regulations or a statutory instrument when she could do what we desire in primary legislation. It does not make any sense at all.

The amendment on transfers is fundamentally about the policy on delivering social housing. I read the Fine Gael local election manifesto and noted that it matches completely what the Minister of State is doing. It states:

A new payment, the ‘Housing Assistance Payment’ (HAP), is designed to address three problems associated with the traditional approach to social housing, namely:

- Social housing waiting lists are unacceptably long.

- Rent Supplement has been identified as a 'welfare trap'...

- Responsibility for social housing is divided between the Department of Social Protection - which administers the Rent Supplement scheme - and the Council - which is responsible for managing the social housing list and the Rental Accommodation Scheme (RAS).
Moreover, it states:
The Housing Assistance Payment will address these problems in three main ways as follows:

First, HAP applicants will source their own accommodation in the private rented sector and once they are accommodated they will be deemed to have their housing need met.
Essentially, the Minister of State is delivering on the Fine Gael local election manifesto.

I completely accept the positive step of removing the welfare trap. I listened to an interview this morning with the Minister of State at the Department of Health, Deputy Alex White. He was asked about his regrets and stated Irish Water was one. The Minister of State, Deputy Jan O'Sullivan should not allow this housing legislation to be a regret. Something can be done about it at this stage. She should not be the one delivering a really poor outcome for people who really require the Labour Party to stamp their authority on this matter. This is a very serious problem and what I propose really should be in the legislation. Anything less is only a con job and people will see it as such.

Photo of Dessie EllisDessie Ellis (Dublin North West, Sinn Fein)
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I tabled an amendment stating tenants in the RAS should receive priority in the allocation of social housing by the relevant authority should they be evicted owing to unaffordable rent. It was said when the RAS was introduced that participants would get another property that would be deemed appropriate to the RAS, be on a contract or get local authority housing. This is the commitment to which the Minister of State referred the other day when she stated people would go onto a transfer list or continue on the housing list. What we need is legislation. Words mean nothing because local authorities will derive their policy from the legislation. It is not a matter of what the Minister of State and I believe the interpretation to be; it is a matter of what the local authorities believe based on the legislation. It is quite clear that one's new arrangement will be regarded as an adequate housing arrangement under HAP; that is the problem.

One of our amendments was to suggest the new housing arrangement would not be adequate. It was a simple, straightforward solution. I appeal to the Minister of State, even at this late hour, to re-examine our amendment. She should legislate in some way to address our concerns. It is not good enough to say that people can go onto the transfer list. In many cases, the transfer list does not even exist. Will the Minister of State legislate in some way to ensure people can go onto the list or continue on the list? That is the only way to proceed; otherwise the legislation will be read in different ways.

We are experiencing a major crisis at present. Ultimately, the Government needs to introduce proper solutions and demonstrate how we will build more social housing. I realise we will not be able to deliver it for a year or year and a half, for example, but we need to have plans. Our analysis this year suggested 6,000 units are coming on stream. Some 2,500 of these pertain to the RAS and 1,200 pertain to leases. This is not proper housing provision. It is a case of massaging figures to address the problem with the social housing list. There are now 89,000 people on the rent supplement list. How many of them will be whittled away when they go onto HAP? How will we address their concerns? Will we go to the landlords and establish one-year, two-year or three-year contracts, as happened under the RAS? That is not adequate housing and nobody can tell me it is. It will not solve the problems we have. If we do not start now with a major stimulus of some description to get moving on the building of large quantities of social housing, we will continue as we are. Fr. McVerry stated some days ago circumstances are getting worse and will continue to do so. We need to start looking at what we have, find other avenues for housing people and identify alternatives.

We have talked about NAMA for long enough. NAMA has not delivered. It has delivered approximately 500 units. There is still talk that it can deliver more but its current rate of delivery is not worth talking about. Therefore, we really are in a crisis. I know of people with children on the RAS who were put out of their homes and ended up homeless. We were told this would not happen. This is exactly what will happen under HAP. We are in the midst of a crisis. Let us manage it in a fitting manner. We are not doing so.

12:00 pm

Photo of Ruth CoppingerRuth Coppinger (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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11 o’clock

Perhaps I missed something, but I am not sure if the Minister of State has circulated the wording for her statutory instrument. It seems she has not done so. In an earlier debate she told me I was not long in the Dáil, which is true, but I do know we do not vote on the promise of something. The least that should be done is that the Minister of State provide the wording for which she was asked the other night and circulate it to Deputies to let them see what is about to be voted on.

I repeat my question about the housing assistance payment, HAP. What will happen if people refuse to move to the HAP scheme? There are people who are seriously thinking that if they are forced to move to this scheme, they will make themselves homeless rather than lose the benefit of having spent ten or 11 years, in some cases, on the housing waiting list.

My only consolation, if the Bill goes through today, as I assume it will, is that it might be the whip needed to get the 100,000 families on housing waiting lists nationally to mobilise and demand the political change needed. When it gets out what is involved, people will be incensed.

I have just come from a radio discussion about the housing bubble in Dublin. I am sure the Minister of State is aware that economists now recognise that we are either in a bubble or on the verge of one. What is fuelling it? It is the lack of social housing and housing generally, yet there is inertia on the opposite benches about moving to deal with the issue. It is the Government which dictates whether social housing will be built by funding councils and directing them to build.

On general house building, the private control of the construction sector is proving to be an impediment. For example, in the Fingal County Council area some 13,000 planning permissions have been granted and not taken up and there is adequate land zoned to build thousands of houses.

Photo of Seán KennySeán Kenny (Dublin North East, Labour)
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The Deputy's time is up.

Photo of Ruth CoppingerRuth Coppinger (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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All of the necessary things have been done by the council to facilitate this, but, unfortunately, developers and the banking sector are not interested. The Bill is a landlord's charter. I ask the Minister of State to withdraw it, allow discussion and debate-----

Photo of Seán KennySeán Kenny (Dublin North East, Labour)
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I have already reminded the Deputy that she has exceeded her two minutes.

Photo of Ruth CoppingerRuth Coppinger (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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-----and not to leave people in the hands of landlords.

Photo of Jonathan O'BrienJonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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The Minister of State has heard all of the arguments about the HAP during the debate. We are not making up these scenarios and not scaremongering. I presume the Minister of State, like many of us, served on a local authority. We know what the situation is when it comes to housing being provided by local authorities and how the transfer lists operate in our local authority areas.

I missed part of the Minister of State's contribution the last day, but I believe she said she would bring forward a regulation to force local authorities to have a transfer list. Let us do this, but the question is what the transfer policy will be because it varies from local authority to local authority. Even if there is a policy which states HAP tenants are put on a transfer list and retain their priority rating in terms of the number of years spent on the waiting list and so forth, the reality is that we do not have the social housing stock to which to transfer people. What is going to happen? We are being asked to pass legislation to create a housing assistance payment to end poverty traps. While that is commendable, at the same time, we are being asked to take people off housing lists because they are deemed to be adequately housed. It does not make sense.

As I have said previously to the Minister of State, the rental accommodation scheme, RAS, is an absolute disaster and will form the next housing crisis. I deal with RAS tenants every week in my constituency office. When people come who do not have high quality housing, I contact the local authority and ask for the property to be reinspected as could be, say, two years since the landlord entered the RAS system. In many cases, the house is in dire need of repairs and the landlord is not carrying them out, but the local authorities state they do not have the inspectors to inspect properties.

The next question from constituents concerns whether they can come off the RAS and be housed by the local authority. While I do not know what the position is in any other council, if a person accepts a RAS property in the Cork City Council area, he or she will no longer be on a housing list. That is factual. If a person wants to transfer from a RAS property, the local authority insists on him or her entering the private market because he or she will no longer be on the housing list. If a person applies to be put on the housing list, he or she is denied because, in the eyes of the local authority, he or she has come from a situation where he or she was adequately housed and voluntarily gave up the house. Therefore, the local authority will not put him or her on the housing list.

I know of people who were in RAS properties and, because the property was in such a poor state of disrepair, were forced to leave it and ended up registering as homeless. That is happening and it is what will happen in the case of the HAP. If people are not able to remain on a housing list, eventually, in some cases, they will register as homeless.

The Minister of State is an intelligent woman and I do not mean this to be patronising, but she must see that what we are saying has merit. I do not understand why she is not taking on board the concerns raised by various Deputies. I do not know why she is bringing forward a regulation, given that the Bill must yet go before the Seanad. She could easily bring forward an amendment to the primary legislation in the Seanad to ensure people remain on the housing list; she does not need to do this by regulation or statutory instrument. If the Bill is passed today, it is not as if that is the end of it, given that it must go before the Seanad next week, where it can be amended. I encourage the Minister of State to at least consider that option. Unless this is included in primary legislation, it will not have the same weight and value. By bringing forward a regulation, the Minister of State is leaving it open to any future Minister in her position to change it at the behest of one person. If it is included in primary legislation, however, at least it would have to be done by an Act of the Oireachtas.

There are genuine concerns in this regard and they must be taken on board, in particular for the 50,000 families who will transfer to the HAP scheme. The Minister of State has said a lot about trying to end homelessness, but this will just exacerbate the problem. I encourage her to at least give a commitment to look at the issue while the Bill is progressing through the Seanad and make provision for the change through amendments in primary legislation.

Photo of Barry CowenBarry Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister of State's response to the proposed amendment was that she had ministerial power to ensure local authorities allowed for those on transfer lists to retain the option of obtaining a housing unit from the local authority. I do not doubt the Minister of State's bona fides and good intentions in that regard. However, like my colleagues and others, I fear that this is not enough. To quote a colleague of hers, we cannot expect her to micromanage each local authority on a regular basis to ascertain how its housing list is being managed and applicants are being dealt with if they are in the HAP system. That being the case, it is only right and proper and a fair proposal in the amendment that it be enshrined in legislation, that it would be in order for all local authorities to have such a list, with certain criteria attached, in order that we will not have the haphazard approach we have seen throughout the country.

The different fiefdoms that exist in various counties are such that transfer lists are as good as irrelevant in most if not all counties. That being the case, the amendment and the support we have received for it from across the House show that there is a means and a method in our intentions. I ask the Minister of State to take it on board and insert into the Bill a provision so that her good intentions, bona fides and agreement with us in that regard are set down in legislation. We would then have no problem and would be able to assure people that there is no fear of retribution if they take up this scheme. I have seen examples in my constituency in which people who have not gone on the RAS scheme for whatever reason - and there are very good reasons not to accept the RAS scheme - have been penalised and lost points in their efforts to obtain a housing unit through other more appropriate means or means to which we have been accustomed.

12:10 pm

Photo of Seán KennySeán Kenny (Dublin North East, Labour)
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I am informed that Deputy Boyd Barrett has already spoken twice on this amendment and that is the limit. I call on the Minister of State.

Photo of Jan O'SullivanJan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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I think my time is limited as well. I am absolutely committed to social housing and house building. We will construct houses as soon as we can and are already exploring ways in which we can engage in some housing construction off the Government balance sheet. As soon as capital is available, I will be building houses in conjunction with the local authorities. I want to make that quite clear.

There is an obligation under the 2009 Act. There are social housing regulations, commenced on 1 May 2011, that local authorities must take into account when making their allocation schemes. All housing authorities were required to make an allocation scheme under these regulations. They must set out the manner in which they will allocate dwellings to households on the waiting list and households that have been approved for transfers. On the basis of the discussion to date in this House - and I have listened to what all of the Deputies have said - I will be asking my officials to follow up with any local authority that is not complying with these statutory instructions. I will also remind them of their obligations to RAS tenants, because they do have obligations to these tenants who are losing their homes.

I intend to revise these regulations to ensure that all social housing recipients, including those in receipt of HAP who wish to do so, will still be able to access other local authority housing options through the transfer system, whereby they can apply to transfer to other social housing options such as local authority housing or approved housing body housing.

In respect of the point made by Deputy Coppinger, the debates from last week are in the official record. For clarification, I want it recorded that I am committed to putting in place the statutory framework under section 22 of the 2009 Act that will provide for a robust transfer policy in every local authority, which would afford HAP recipients and other social housing tenants equal opportunity to access other forms of social housing support, including incremental purchase schemes. While it is a transfer list, the list will reflect the specific priority or previous position that households had on the main waiting list within the authority area in which they are resident. They will, therefore, be placed on a transfer list with no less favourable terms than if they had remained on the main housing waiting list. They will keep their time accrued. That is more or less what I said last week, but I wanted to say it again very clearly. In response to Deputy O'Brien, when I go to the Seanad, I will be listening to any proposals made there. Today is not the end of the Bill. If there are amendments there, they will come back to this House.

I repeat that this is a positive measure. People come to see me who have an offer of a job and tell me that they cannot take it because they will lose all of their rent supplement. Those people will now be able to take the job and have some security with regard to being able to afford their rent. They will be able to keep their priority position on whatever local authority waiting list they are on, because I will put that in the regulations, which is the appropriate place to put it because that is where transfer regulations generally are under the 2009 Act. This Bill simply deals with the three issues - HAP, anti-social behaviour and tenant purchase. It sets up the HAP scheme, which is a major reform and improvement for people who are currently in an insecure situation whereby if they get work, they are in danger of losing their rent supplement.

Photo of Seán KennySeán Kenny (Dublin North East, Labour)
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Is it Deputy Cowen or Deputy Ó Fearghaíl who will be replying? Deputy Ó Fearghaíl.

Photo of Seán Ó FearghaílSeán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Fianna Fail)
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How much time do I have?

Photo of Dessie EllisDessie Ellis (Dublin North West, Sinn Fein)
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I also have an amendment.

Photo of Seán KennySeán Kenny (Dublin North East, Labour)
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That will be taken next.

Photo of Seán Ó FearghaílSeán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Fianna Fail)
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Are we time-limited on this?

Photo of Seán KennySeán Kenny (Dublin North East, Labour)
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Under Standing Orders, the Deputy is free to speak as long as he wishes as he is replying in respect of the amendment.

Photo of Seán Ó FearghaílSeán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Fianna Fail)
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I am not given to lengthy contributions so I will not detain the House unduly. The Minister of State has been talking about the positive aspects of this Bill. Undoubtedly, there are many very positive aspects to this legislation. Deputy Cowen and practically every other speaker has referred to them both on Second Stage and in addressing the multiplicity of amendments put before the House on Committee Stage. However, I must begin by saying that it seems inordinately disappointing that although we have reached the virtual conclusion of Committee Stage, the Minister of State has not accepted a single amendment from this side of the House. I see it as a sign of strength rather than weakness for a Minister to be able to listen to the Opposition and to take on board positive recommendations that are coming forward.

I made the point on Second Stage and in respect of some of the amendments, along with Deputy Cowen, that there are a number of lost opportunities in this legislation. Yet again, we have lost the opportunity to address the issue of the sale of voluntary housing units by voluntary housing associations to their tenants where the association is willing and has the agreement of the local authority to undertake such a sale. I must admit that this opportunity was lost when my own party was in Government, but the Deputy is the Minister of State now. This has not happened and is a missed opportunity. I hope it is something the Minister of State will address in the Seanad or in some future piece of legislation that she will bring forward at an early stage. There has been some confusion emanating from the Department. However, it is my very clear understanding that it is not possible under the current legislation for voluntary housing associations to dispose of houses built under the capital assistance and capital loan and subsidy schemes where 100% of the funding came from the Department and where 100% of the people housed came from the local authority waiting list, although people are trying to argue that it is. It not possible for these people to purchase their houses under the current legislation. The 2009 Act made it possible under the incremental purchase scheme to purchase houses built after 2009 with the agreement of the voluntary housing association and the local authority. I do not know if any such houses were even built, never mind sold, under this scheme.

During a very lengthy debate, many Members have referred to the role of NAMA. There has been talk of the number of houses NAMA has offered to local authorities and the number of houses that local authorities have in turn taken up. What has not been addressed is the fact that, as I understand it, NAMA did not make the houses available to the local authorities free of charge. They had to be paid for. If the Department did not give the local authorities the funding in the first instance, they were not in a position to purchase the properties that had been identified and were being offered.

Perhaps the Minister of State will address one other issue in respect of these NAMA properties. I am told that when local authorities across the country looked at the range of properties offered, some were deemed suitable and others were deemed unsuitable. Could the Minister of State explain to us whether or not the suitability of the properties had anything to do with the people on the housing list who required housing or whether it had more to do with criteria laid down by the Department relating to the type of construction involved and the size of the particular units that might be purchased?

Was it the case that the Department would not permit a local authority to purchase a house that was in excess of 1,100, 1,200 or 1,300 sq. ft. because such houses were considered to be too large to be used? Did that represent a problem in addressing the number of units offered by NAMA?

All of us focused on the importance of the building programme. When the country was in dire straits previously, there was a construction programme. I fully accept the Minister of State's commitment to house building, but she said she would work with local authorities to return to house building and that it would be off-balance-sheet.

12:20 pm

Photo of Jan O'SullivanJan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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Some of it.

Photo of Seán Ó FearghaílSeán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister of State said it would be off-balance-sheet. I appreciate the role she foresees for voluntary housing associations, as they provide her with a vehicle for building off-balance-sheet, but Members, including those in her party, would say it is a central function of local government to be the housing authority, and local government should be the primary provider of social housing. We all want a return to building and we all want funding to be provided to voluntary housing associations to fulfil their remit, but the centrality of local authorities as housing authorities needs to restated and given effect to, and the only way to do that is for the Department to make the funding available to them to undertake that work.

I will return to section 35, which is addressed in the amendments, and the issues with regard to the housing list and the HAP scheme and the correlation between HAP and RAS. The Minister of State has rejected the attempt by Deputy Ellis and ourselves to place a requirement on local authorities to transition people who have a proven track record in RAS to local authority vacancies when they arise, whether through construction or as casual vacancies. We also wanted to include a provision that the Minister of State instruct local authorities to give people on the proposed new waiting list priority and to give them credit for the time they have been on the current waiting lists - and, presumably, for the time they have been in the RAS or the HAP scheme - when local authority houses become vacant. However, she has refused to accept amendments that would give effect to these provisions. I was told as a child "Live horse, get grass."

We are about the business of legislating. The Minister of State has set out a proposed course of action but the first step she has taken is to provide in primary legislation that 80,000 people should be taken off the housing waiting lists. She is then providing that they can go on to a transfer list, which is not formally provided for in legislation, although she referred to the 2009 Act. However, this legislation, for which she is responsible, states clearly: "The provision of housing assistance under this Part shall be deemed to be an appropriate form of social housing support for a household that is determined by a local authority under the said section." I do not know a local authority that has transferred, or will transfer, somebody out of a house in which he or she is deemed to be appropriately housed. I accept the Minister of State's bona fides in this, but this is right-wing Fine Gael legislation. There must be Labour Party people turning in their graves at the prospect of what she is doing in this legislation, because she is changing something that has been at the heart of national housing policy since we undertook the process of self-government. This will have an enormous social impact, which will, unfortunately, be negative.

It is clear that the Minister of State will not accept our amendments, but I hope our colleagues in the Seanad will be more animated by this issue. Given their connection to councillors around the country, they certainly should be. Where we have failed today and over the past number of weeks to convince the Minister of State of the merits of our arguments, I hope Senators will succeed. Opposition Members have made proposals about best practice and effective management of the housing stock we have and that we will, hopefully, build, and it is disappointing and regrettable that the Minister of State has refused to take our recommendations and advice on board.

Amendment put:

The Dáil divided: Tá, 32; Níl, 72.

Tellers: Tá, Deputies Aengus Ó Snodaigh and Seán Ó Fearghaíl; Níl, Deputies Paul Kehoe and Emmet Stagg.

Níl

Amendment declared lost.

12:30 pm

Photo of Dessie EllisDessie Ellis (Dublin North West, Sinn Fein)
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I move amendment No. 45:

In page 72, after line 31, to insert the following:"Protection for RAS tenants

59. Tenants under RAS shall receive a priority with regard to allocation of social housing by the relevant authority should they be evicted due to unaffordable rent levels.".

Amendment put:

The Dáil divided: Tá, 32; Níl, 72.

Tellers: Tá, Deputies Seán Ó Fearghaíl and Aengus Ó Snodaigh; Níl, Deputies Paul Kehoe and Emmet Stagg.

Níl

Amendment declared lost.

Bill reported without amendment.

Question, "That the Bill be received for final consideration", put and declared carried.

Question proposed: "That the Bill do now pass".

Question put.

The Dáil divided by electronic means.

12:35 pm

Photo of Aengus Ó SnodaighAengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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As a teller, given the importance of the Bill and the changes it implements for people awaiting housing in the State, I propose under Standing Order 69 that the vote be taken by other than electronic means.

Photo of Michael KittMichael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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As Deputy Ó Snodaigh is a Whip, under Standing Order 69 he is entitled to call a vote through the lobby.