Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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It has been a very difficult week for the Tánaiste and on behalf of Fianna Fáil I would like to extend best wishes to him and his family. Politics is a tough business. It has been a hard few days and we wish the Tánaiste well personally. I know he is not retiring from politics per se.

The Secretary General of the Department of Justice and Equality, Brian Purcell, appeared before the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality yesterday. Unfortunately, he would not and did not answer any questions surrounding the events of the departure of the former Garda Commissioner, Martin Callinan. In effect, both Mr. Purcell and the Taoiseach are now hiding behind the Fennelly commission. This is treating the Oireachtas and the public with disdain. There is no legal obstacle as to why Mr. Purcell could not have come before the committee yesterday and answered questions about Martin Callinan's departure. Similarly, there is no legal obstacle as to why the Taoiseach could not answer questions here yesterday on his role in that departure.

Following the resignation of the former Minister, Deputy Shatter, we heard much about a cultural sea change we would see in the area of justice and about new openness and transparency. It appears that all of that now amounts to little more than a hill of beans. We are not seeing any evidence of that type of change whatsoever. We have a farcical situation where the new Minister for Justice and Equality is not in a position to express confidence in her Secretary General. In what company would it be acceptable for a CEO to say she could not say whether she had confidence in the head of operations? This is not a tenable situation and it must be addressed.

We still have no answer to the fundamental question as to why the Taoiseach dispatched Brian Purcell to the house of Martin Callinan to do his dirty work for him and, effectively, deliver a P45. Why did that happen? We still have no answer to that question. We read in today's Irish Independentthat Sergeant Maurice McCabe has been forced out of work on sick leave and has lodged 13 separate complaints pertaining to bullying and harassment. If that is true, it does not represent much of a sea-change or cultural shift. Following everything that has happened, if it is true that this is how he is being treated, is it not a damning indictment of the State at this time? Why is it the Acting Commissioner, Noirín O'Sullivan, said yesterday at the committee that senior managers were in contact on a daily basis with Sergeant Maurice McCabe, but we hear the complete opposite from sources very close to him? We need answers to that question.

Does the Tánaiste accept there are no legal obstacles preventing the Secretary General of the Department of Justice and Equality, Brian Purcell, or the Taoiseach from giving this House or a parliamentary committee a full explanation of the circumstances that led to the forced resignation of the former Garda Commissioner, Martin Callinan?

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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I thank Deputy McGrath for his good wishes. I confirm I am not retiring from politics and plan on being around for a while.

We all know that the issues in regard to An Garda Síochána have required to be addressed for a long time, long before the current Government came into office. In the course of a relatively short period of time this year, we have put in place a number of decisions which will radically change the way in which An Garda Síochána is managed and how it reports to the public. The critical pillar in this is the establishment of an independent Garda authority. This is something the Labour Party has been seeking for a long time and I am glad the Government has now made the decision to proceed with it.

The issue of how to deal with whistleblowing is another issue. We have had significant discussion here and in public on how to deal with whistleblowing and whistleblowers. The Government is introducing legislation that will provide protection for people who draw attention to wrong-doing and this legislation will apply to An Garda Síochána. I believe that any member of the Garda who wants to report wrong-doing should be able to do that without fear of any kind of recrimination.

We have also established a number of means by which issues that remain can be worked through, such as the Fennelly commission which will address the issue of the resignation of the former Garda Commissioner and issues surrounding that. The Deputy's question is essentially a legal one. I am not a lawyer so I cannot give him a legal answer. It is important that all of the issues which are being addressed by the Fennelly commission are fully aired and that everybody who has information to give to that commission should do so. This obviously includes the Secretary General of the Department of Justice and Equality.

Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The truth is the truth, whether it is told to the Fennelly commission, the Oireachtas committee or the Members of this House and the people. The truth does not change. There is no impediment, legal or otherwise, preventing Mr. Purcell or the Taoiseach from coming before the parliamentary committee or this House and providing answers as to what exactly happened and what led to the forced departure of the former Garda Commissioner, Martin Callinan. That fact has not changed and we still do not have an answer to that question. That answer must be forthcoming.

The Tánaiste outlined the policy response and I agree there has been positive movement in a number of respects. However, a number of disturbing features have emerged in recent days. First is the fact that Sergeant Maurice McCabe clearly feels he is not being properly treated within An Garda Síochána. If media reports are to be believed, he has lodged 13 separate complaints. Why is that happening? Why is it the Acting Commissioner was under the impression that Garda management was in daily contact with Sergeant McCabe when the evidence points in the other direction? The Minister, Deputy Fitzgerald, needs to contact the Acting Commissioner to get to the bottom of that matter immediately.

Why are Mr. Purcell and the Taoiseach not willing to provide a free and open account of the events that led to the resignation of Martin Callinan? That is not an issue that can just be buried in the Fennelly commission. It is an issue of fundamental public importance. If we are to restore confidence in the justice system, there is an imperative that these answers are forthcoming now. There is no reason we must wait for the Fennelly commission to conclude its work.

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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It was 12 years ago, I think, that my colleague, Brendan Howlin, and a former Deputy, Jim Higgins, were given information in regard to disturbing issues concerning gardaí in County Donegal. Deputy McGrath's party, Fianna Fáil, was in power at the time and it took it two years to respond to those issues and to establish the Morris tribunal, which met over a long period of time. When that tribunal reported, Fianna Fáil effectively did nothing about the report.

Problems in An Garda Síochána did not start when this Government came into office. Problems in the Garda did not start six months ago. The difference now is that the Government has acted in order to address the issues. Within the space of a number of months, we have made changes to the management, the structures around the Garda, to the way in which it reports and to the establishment of means of getting to the bottom of issues that require to be fully investigated. We have done this in a space of time that Fianna Fáil did not do when in government. If we set up a commission and ask it to do a job, it should be allowed to do its work. I do not have any doubt but that the Fennelly commission will do its job and that anybody who has information to give to that commission will give the full information and there will be no question in regard to information or the truth being made fully available.

It goes beyond the question of information and what is being told to a commission.

It is also about what we do about it. We have had repeated investigations of one kind or another. Tribunals have been set up here and tribunals have been set up there. They go on for years and by the time they are finished nobody can remember why they were set up in the first place.

Deputies:

Hear, hear.

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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More importantly nothing is ever done about it. The difference this time is that the action is taken with an independent Garda authority being established and a different way of the Garda Síochána reporting to the public about what is a service to the public.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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That is our Bill, the Independents' Bill.

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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It is past time that the structures that were established in an entirely different era in the 1920s were changed. They are now being changed with a new Garda authority, whistleblowers legislation that will cover the Garda Síochána and investigations that will get to the bottom of any issue of wrongdoing in the Garda Síochána.

Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Independent)
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What is the answer to the question?

A Deputy:

Business as usual.

Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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On my behalf and that of my party, we wish the Tánaiste and his family well in the future.

Last week, the Government launched a plan whose aim was to end homelessness by 2016. It is a very laudable plan that every Member of this House wants to see succeed. We will work with the Government in trying to achieve that goal. In recent months many councils in the State have faced an increase in the number of people presenting as homeless. Part of the reason for this is down to Government policy on rent supplement. As rents increase, particularly in urban areas, the cap on rent allowance means that many families can no longer afford the home they are renting privately. Therefore, they are being forced out on to the streets and presenting to local authorities as homeless.

The capital funding being provided to local authorities over the past three years has decreased under the stewardship of the Minister of State, Deputy Jan O'Sullivan. There was a 23% decrease in 2012, a similar decrease in funding for capital projects in 2013 and a 5% decrease in funding this year. These are all contributing to the problem of many people now facing homelessness. Under this Government and under the Minister, Deputy Burton, and the Minister of State, Deputy Jan O'Sullivan, the housing crisis has got worse.

One of the solutions to that is for the Minister, Deputy Burton, to instruct local community welfare officers that a family at risk of being made homeless should be given permission to breach the rent supplement caps. I ask the Tánaiste, as leader of the Labour Party and as a member of the Government, to ensure that directive is given to local community welfare officers. Where a family in danger of being put on the streets because they can no longer afford their private rented accommodation, welfare officers should be allowed to breach the rent supplement caps.

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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I thank the Deputy for his kind remarks.

I agree we have a serious housing problem that has to be addressed. I acknowledge Sinn Féin's support for the strategy that the Minister of State, Deputy Jan O'Sullivan, announced to end homelessness by 2016. That is an objective that should be pursued by Government, by agencies working with homeless people and by local authorities. It is clear, particularly following last Friday's elections, that this responsibility is now shared more widely politically, particularly regarding the governance of various local authorities. I hope that over the coming weeks political parties, which have been successful and in many cases have become the largest party in local authorities and will be part of governing arrangements in local authorities, will ensure that the agreements they make with other parties for the running of local authorities for the next five years will commit to ensure that sites are made available and plans are drawn up for the provision of social housing to ensure that people's housing needs are met.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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The Government will have to give them the money.

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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As far as the provision of local authority housing is concerned, the Minister, Deputy Howlin, has announced two additional stimulus packages which provide for an additional €100 million for social housing. I can go through the detail of that if the Deputy wishes.

The Deputy specifically raised an issue with the rent supplement. As he knows, rents are increasing, partly owing to the supply situation. The answer to that is not simply to raise the rent supplement every time there is an adjustment in rent because doing that leads to a never-ending problem with rents continuing to increase. We know from previous experience that as the rent supplement increases the rents increase to meet it.

The Minister for Social Protection has already provided arrangements for flexibility in the application of rent supplement, particularly where people are at risk of losing their home. It is my understanding that arrangements are already being put in place to allow for flexibility to be exercised by community welfare officers in the application of rent supplement.

Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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That arrangement is not trickling down to local community welfare officers, as I am sure any Member of the House can confirm to the Tánaiste. Unfortunately increasing numbers of people in the depths of despair are presenting to my constituency office because they are being forced out of their private rented accommodation. I agree that raising rent supplement caps does not represent a long-term solution. The long-term solution is for the State to provide local authority housing to those who are unable to purchase their own homes. That cannot be done if the Government continues to cut capital budgets to local authorities. It cannot be done if the Government refuses to give local authorities the necessary funding to refurbish the thousands of homes that lie idle and which should generate income for local authorities.

Eric Byrne (Dublin South Central, Labour)
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The local property tax is coming in for them. What way does the Deputy want it?

Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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That is the solution. Raising the rent supplement limits is a temporary solution, but it is crucial for the type of people who present at my constituency office and have a demand from a landlord to vacate a property because he is increasing the rent which he knows he could get from another tenant. The reality is that we have a housing crisis and €100 million or €50 million from the Minister of State, Deputy Jan O'Sullivan will not solve it. It will be solved by proper funding to local authorities to provide the necessary accommodation for people who need it.

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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I will ask the Minister for Social Protection to address the issue of the trickling down of information regarding the exercise of flexibility, particularly where people are at risk of losing their homes. We need to address the problem of people at risk of losing their home because of increased rents that the rent supplement will not meet. I know that the Minister for Social Protection is addressing that and I will ask her to ensure that the information trickles down.

On the capital provision, the Minister of State, Deputy Jan O'Sullivan, has already announced additional money to ensure that approximately 1,700 boarded-up houses that could be renewed are refurbished and put back into use as quickly as possible. Additional money has been provided for the resumption of a social housing construction programme.

Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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Some €20 million.

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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Let us get real here. This is not just a matter of the money being provided by the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government. It is also a matter of local authorities agreeing where those houses are going and identifying sites where social housing can be built.

Dessie Ellis (Dublin North West, Sinn Fein)
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That has already been done.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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It certainly has been done on the north side.

Dessie Ellis (Dublin North West, Sinn Fein)
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Fantasy funding.

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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Those proposals must then be brought to the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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There are plenty of sites in Dún Laoghaire.

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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I look forward to those who spent the past number of years picketing and holding protests against the building of social housing in different parts of the country facing up, in their newly-held positions as members of local authorities-----

Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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Give us the funding at local authority level and we will do the job.

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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-----to their responsibilities and stating where local authority housing is going to be built.

Dessie Ellis (Dublin North West, Sinn Fein)
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Fine Gael people were involved in that.

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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They should state that they want to build 100 houses on one site and a development of council houses on another site.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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What about the proposal to build 500 houses on the site of the former open prison at Shanganagh Castle in Shankill?

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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I look forward to seeing members of local authorities who have consistently objected to proposals relating to the building of social housing bringing forward their own proposals in respect of such housing. The latter will then be addressed by the Minister of State with responsibility for housing.

Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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The Tánaiste is blaming local authority members rather than the Government of which he is a member. He has learned nothing.

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick, Fine Gael)
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Those opposite will have to make the decisions now. They may even decide to build a flood barrier.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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I call Deputy Maureen O'Sullivan and request that there be order for those asking questions and for the person replying to them.

Maureen O'Sullivan (Dublin Central, Independent)
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I want to return to a very significant and moving moment which took place in the Dáil on Tuesday, 19 February 2013. Part of its significance was due to the reaction of the ladies from the Magdalen laundries, who were present in the Gallery that day, to the apologies offered by the Taoiseach, the Tánaiste and others. During his apology, the Taoiseach stated, "I, as Taoiseach, on behalf of the State, the Government and our citizens, deeply regret and apologise unreservedly to all those women for the hurt that was done to them". He also stated that the women deserved more than a formal apology and that he intended to put in place a process "by which we can determine how best to help and support the women in their remaining years". Those sentiments were echoed by other Members. There was a general feeling on that occasion that a process was going to be put in place and that all of the outstanding issues would be resolved. One would imagine that, one year and three months later, all of this would have been done, particularly for those ladies of very advanced years. It is most unfortunate that the reality is different. I wish to highlight some of that reality and then pose a number of questions.

As a result of the fact that inadequate records were kept in some places, an enormous burden of proof has been placed on some of the ladies involved. One would imagine that a much more flexible approach could be adopted at this point and that the ladies to whom I refer could be given the benefit of the doubt. However, the opposite is the case because it has been left to them to prove that they were in the laundries. The effect is that some ladies are being excluded from redress, while others are being offered less than that to which they might be entitled. There are those who feel so defeated by this extra burden they are being obliged to shoulder that it is like being back in the laundries for them.

An issue arises in respect of the institution known as An Grianan, which was on the site of a Magdalen laundry at High Park. There is no doubt that the women and girls at An Grianan did the same work as those in the laundry. They were referred to it by the justice system - on remand and on probation - and the health boards for protection. Some of them were as young as 11 years of age. A number of the women to whom I refer are not being compensated. I hate using that word because nobody can compensate them for what they endured.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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Hear, hear.

Maureen O'Sullivan (Dublin Central, Independent)
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The time they spent in An Grianan is not being accepted under the redress scheme. However, that spent by their counterparts at similar training centres in Summerhill in Wexford and Stanhope Street in Dublin is covered under it. Will the Tánaiste, the new Minister for Justice and Equality and the Government ensure that there will be no additional delays or interruptions in respect of the implementation plan relating to the Magdalen ladies? Will they ensure that payments will be expedited and that the situation in respect of An Grianan will be examined? Will they further ensure that there will be a broader interpretation of Mr. Justice Quirke's recommendation on health care in order that the women, regardless of where they live, will have access to a level of care similar to that available to those with Health Amendment Act, HAA, cards?

Deputies:

Hear, hear.

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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I assure Deputy Maureen O'Sullivan that we will ensure there will be no delays. If she wishes to provide details of particular cases to me, the Taoiseach or the Minister for Justice and Equality, we would be very happy to follow up on them.

One of the issues which arose as a result of this entire episode is the retention of records. The Government agreed that the Minister for Education and Skills would bring forward legislative proposals to allow for the retention of records by the Commission to Inquire into Child Abuse and all of the issues relating to the Magdalen laundries, etc. We are concerned about the fact that the destruction of any of those records would represent a significant loss. The Minister for Education and Skills has been working on this matter, which the Cabinet discussed earlier in the week. Legislation is being prepared to ensure that the relevant records will be protected.

I completely accept that it would be desirable to ensure that the commitments made in respect of payments and the provision of health care and supports to survivors of Magdalen laundries are followed up on. I acknowledge the Deputy's assertion to the effect that questions have arisen with regard to particular periods and what is and is not contemplated for consideration. We would certainly be happy to investigate any matters in respect of which the Deputy can provide details.

Maureen O'Sullivan (Dublin Central, Independent)
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Most of the organisations involved have welcomed the fact that the State intends to introduce the legislation to which the Tánaiste refers in order that all of the relevant material will be preserved. The Human Rights Commission and the UN Committee Against Torture, UNCAT, repeatedly requested a statutory and thorough investigation into what happened in the laundries. Preserving the records will ensure that this can happen at some future date. In recent days UNCAT has indicated that the State should "take additional steps to ensure that victims obtain redress as needed, including in the case of the Magdalene Laundries".

I take this opportunity to mention the case of Rita. The latter is not her real name. There is absolutely no doubt about the date on which Rita entered the laundry; neither is there any doubt about the date when she was not there. There is a discrepancy in that there is no official proof of where she was for a very short period but there are people who are prepared to swear affidavits in order to prove that she was exactly where she says she was. Rita approached the Department of Justice and Equality following the Taoiseach's apology in February 2013 and registered with the implementation team at the end of June of that year. This lady is in her 80s and for the past six weeks I have been trying to obtain an answer for her from the Department. I have continually been informed that it is awaiting a directive. This has been going on for far too long. As Rita has informed me, it is not the money but rather the principle of the thing. The Tánaiste is seeking details but the Department of Justice and Equality knows the real identity of the person to whom I refer. I hope her case will be resolved by next week at the very latest.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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Hear, hear.

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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Obviously, I do not know the details of the individual case to which the Deputy refers. However, I will ask the Minister for Justice and Equality to follow up on it.