Dáil debates

Wednesday, 7 May 2014

5:25 pm

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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May I make a comment?

5:35 pm

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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I am sorry, there was an announcement. Whatever arrangements Deputies wish to enter into later, I want to deal with Leaders' Questions now. It is matter for the Whips afterwards.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I would have appreciated some consultation on the issue, given that the Guerin report followed the presentation of issues to the Taoiseach by me in the Chamber related to very serious issues that merited further investigation. In good faith, the Taoiseach appointed a senior counsel to examine them. I sent the material to the Taoiseach. I am at a loss in the sense that I do not have possession of the conclusions or report of Mr. Guerin. I would have thought it would have been appropriate for us to have been consulted on the content and import of the report, given that it has led to the resignation of the Minister.

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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I am sorry, but we can deal with matter that later.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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This is Leaders' Questions.

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Does the Deputy have a question?

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Yes.

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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I am sorry, I thought the Deputy had a different question.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I had questions originally for the Minister, Deputy Alan Shatter, in relation to the Data Protection Acts.

Photo of Michael Healy-RaeMichael Healy-Rae (Kerry South, Independent)
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The Deputy cannot ask them now because he is gone.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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That is not the point. Something very urgent and profound has been raised by the Taoiseach by way of an information statement.

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy is using Leaders' Questions to raise it.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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No opportunity has been given to Opposition Members to respond to it. I understand there may be reasons for this, but I ask the Taoiseach if he can outline to the House the nature of the conclusions of Mr. Guerin's report that have led to the Minister's resignation. It is a very significant outcome of the report that it caused the Minister to resign. Can the Taoiseach outline whether the Minister spoke to him and whether he spoke to the Minister? Obviously, the Taoiseach received the report. Are there matters in it that he feels made it absolutely necessary for the Minister to resign? Can he outline to the House, even in a broad sketch, the import and content of the report that have led to the Minister's resignation? He will accept that it has caused a significant degree of surprise in the House that in a shock announcement he has indicated that the conclusions of the Guerin report have caused the resignation of the Minister and have been the factor which has resulted in him resigning from office. Have there been consultations between the Taoiseach and the Tánaiste on the matter? Did the Minister take the decision in his own right following a discussion between him and the Taoiseach after the Taoiseach had received the Guerin report? When can we on this side of the House expect to receive a copy of the report? When is it the Taoiseach's intention to have a debate in the House on the report and also on the resignation of the Minister?

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I have received a letter from the Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Alan Shatter, setting out the background and his reasons for making the decision he has made. The Minister has made his decision with a great degree of dignity. This is not a case of a Minister having been involved in anything underhand, illegal or scams of any description. It is a testament to the extent of the exceptional work ethic the Minister showed right across the entire spectrum of the justice brief that the report comes to the conclusion that there was inadequate investigation and analysis of the issues raised by Sergeant McCabe by a variety of agencies. I point out that GSOC did not co-operate with Mr. Guerin. I point out that Mr. Guerin did not speak to the Minister. I point out that the report recommends that there be a comprehensive commission of investigation into the matters raised as the subject of the issues by Sergeant McCabe.

The Minister, in his letter, thanks all of the personnel involved in the work in which he was involved. Obviously, he has read the report, considered its implications and, in the interests of the entire situation, made up his mind and tendered his resignation which I have accepted with reluctance. He has a prodigious work output. His work in the area of penal and legislative reform will stand the test of time.

The report, as Deputy Micheál Martin knows, came as a response by me to issues of grave concern raised in the House. The Government appointed Mr. Seán Guerin, SC, to look at the documentation and the cases presented. His report is factual and straight and, I must say, hard-hitting. It points to the inadequacy of investigation by a range of authorities. In so far as that issue is concerned, the brunt of the report deals with the Garda Síochána and the Department of Justice and Equality and, to a lesser extent, the Minister for Justice and Equality. In regard to his statutory powers, the Minister considers that it is in everybody's interests that he tender his resignation.

The report was sent to me as Taoiseach. The accompanying letter from Mr. Guerin yesterday evening points out that publication of the report must take into account certain matters of privacy, named individuals, matters that might be sub judiceand so on. I have asked the Attorney General to deal with the report in that context and it will be published on Friday morning, taking into account the recommendations of the senior counsel. The Government will respond next week in respect of the report's recommendation that there be a comprehensive commission of investigation, as I committed to here when the matter was raised in the first instance. Obviously, we will make arrangements through the Whips to have the report debated at an appropriate time. It will be available on Friday morning.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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On a personal level, it is a very difficult day for any Minister to have to resign. On a political and a policy level, we certainly had differences with the Minister, Deputy Alan Shatter. I recall his rather trenchant - or very strong - comments on this issue in the House, but be that as it may. I take it that the Taoiseach has read the report and that, therefore, he must have had discussions with the Minister prior to his decision. I take it that the Taoiseach was the first to receive the report because he had commissioned it.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Yes.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I am still unclear on the necessity for the Minister to resign or the reasons the report led to his resignation. Was the Taoiseach of the opinion that it made that a necessity? Can he outline to the House in any shape or detail what the report states? I take it that he is confirming that a separate commission of investigation to the one in relation to Garda taping will be established to deal with the very serious issues contained in the file I sent to him which had been forwarded by the whistleblower. The issues were grave. Can the Taoiseach indicate, in terms of his comment on the inadequacy of analysis, whether there is an implication in terms of the confidential recipient? Was this featured in terms of the issues which had not been dealt with adequately by the various agencies and, ultimately, the Minister? Can the Taoiseach shed any light on that aspect?

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The report is 300 pages long. It concludes that there is a requirement to have a comprehensive commission of investigation into these matters. It points to the inadequacy of investigation and analysis in dealing with the detail of evidence submitted by Sergeant McCabe in respect of these matters. It points to the inadequate response of the Minister under his statutory function and responsibilities for independent investigation and analysis of these matters. It is in that respect that he feels it is his duty to resign from his responsibilities and in that respect only. It is his feeling as a Minister that this finding of the senior counsel of inadequate use of his statutory responsibilities requires him to tender his resignation. Mr. Guerin did not actually speak to the Minister but obviously was in possession of the documentation and paperwork from the Department of Justice and Equality.

This requires him to tender his resignation. Mr. Guerin did not speak to the Minister for Justice and Equality but he was in possession of the documentation and paperwork from the Department of Justice and Equality.

5:45 pm

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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No one in Sinn Féin takes any personal pleasure in the resignation of Deputy Alan Shatter. He has a spouse, a family and a wider family upset by this development. Tá nuacht tagtha chun cinn le déanaí a chuireann níos mó brú ar an Teachta Shatter. Mar is eol don Taoiseach, tá sé i mbéal an phobail le tamall fada anois. Tá sé soiléir nach bhfuil deireadh le sin fós.

The resignation comes as we await the outcome of separate investigations into the bugging controversy at GSOC and claims of Garda malpractice by whistleblowers and it follows a period in which Deputy Alan Shatter's judgment on a range of serious policing and justice issues has undermined public confidence but he was not in it on his own. The Taoiseach and the Tánaiste supported him and resisted strongly and rubbished sensible suggestions from the Sinn Féin spokesperson on justice, Deputy Pádraig Mac Lochlainn, to deal with these matters independently of the Minister in a transparent and appropriate way. Labour and Fine Gael voted confidence in the Minister. It was not just the Minister who has presided over the recent series of controversies, although he was a central actor and the author of a litany of mistakes. He defamed the two Garda whistleblowers and misled the Dáil. The Taoiseach set out, in an inappropriate way, the need for the ombudsman to go to the Minister when that was not the case. He allowed false statements to stand and corrected them only when it was politically expedient to do so. He and the Taoiseach actively sought to minimise the concerns of GSOC that its offices were being bugged. Does the Taoiseach expect other resignations and did he seek the Minister's resignation?

Photo of Michael Healy-RaeMichael Healy-Rae (Kerry South, Independent)
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We could give the Taoiseach a few names.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The answer to both questions is "No". When the report is published, the Deputy and everyone else will have a chance to read it and an opportunity to debate it here. I hope we can conclude on the terms of reference for the commission of investigation, which the report recommends. On behalf of the Government, I said that these were serious matters that would be treated seriously and the Government responded immediately by appointing Mr. Guerin, SC, to look into them. I indicated to the House that when the report was sent to me I would receive it, read it and see that it was published. Following through on that, the report will be published in accordance with the parameters set in respect of privacy. It will be published on Friday morning. Having read the report and considered its implications, the Minister sent me his letter of resignation, which I accepted with regret.

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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The Taoiseach did not ask for his resignation, as I understand it. In 2009, the former Fianna Fáil Minister, Deputy Willie O'Dea, made defamatory remarks to a journalist about the Sinn Féin Limerick council candidate Maurice Quinlivan. Deputy Willie O'Dea swore an affidavit that he had not made those remarks and then retracted it when a journalist produced a tape-recording of the comments. The Taoiseach then tabled at motion of no confidence in Deputy Willie O'Dea and sought, quite rightly, his resignation at that time. Surely that rationale must apply to this case. Cad é an difir? Last night, like Tammy Wynette, the Taoiseach and the Tánaiste were standing by their man. If the Minister had not offered his resignation, he would still be the Minister. Where is the rationale between the Taoiseach's position in 2009 and his current position?

Photo of Michael Healy-RaeMichael Healy-Rae (Kerry South, Independent)
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The Taoiseach might send someone around to his house.

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Will the Deputy stay quiet please?

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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It has come up regularly in canvassing that people have long since lost confidence in the Minister. This is bigger than the Minister because there are ways and means of dealing with the issues that depoliticise them, that are transparent and that allow people to have confidence. Everyone makes mistakes but a system that allows citizens to have a sense of control over their politicians will prevent the kind of catastrophe we have seen. I am sure the Taoiseach will agree with me that these events highlight the need for fundamental reform of the administration of justice and the Garda Síochána. The Taoiseach should not be pulled into it but should do it as a reforming Government. The Taoiseach has failed to do so. It will be borne out as the reports are published that the Minister for Justice and Equality is not the only one culpable. That will become clear and people will remember how the Taoiseach and the Tánaiste stood by, reinforced, rubbished and dismissed genuine efforts to try to sort out these matters. Does the Taoiseach expect other resignations? Does he expect resignations from the Department?

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I have already answered that question. In respect of the Fianna Fáil Deputy mentioned, with respect, Deputy Alan Shatter is not Deputy Willie O'Dea. The Minister considered the implications of the report. GSOC did not co-operate with Mr. Guerin. The terms of reference included the fact that Mr. Guerin was authorised to interview Sergeant McCabe and such persons as may be considered necessary and capable of providing relevant and material assistance. Despite this being an element of the terms of reference, at no time was the Minister interviewed by Mr. Guerin. Even so, the report was concluded and prepared and he understands that. Documentation was forwarded by the Department to the senior counsel but he decided not to interview the Minister. For that reason and the reason of the report's conclusion of inadequate use of the Minister's statutory powers and responsibilities for independent investigation of matters, the Minister decided that he should tender his resignation, which I have accepted with regret. Over my many years in politics, I have never seen anyone with a work ethic like that displayed by Deputy Alan Shatter in terms of his work and commitment to his responsibility.

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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The Taoiseach did not take our advice.

Photo of Jerry ButtimerJerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Adams is not one to judge. The Deputy will not shush me or bully me. He will not bully me.

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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I called Deputy Clare Daly.

Photo of Jerry ButtimerJerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Adams will not bully me.

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Please, Deputy. I call Deputy Clare Daly. I will not ask Deputy Buttimer again.

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Can the Ceann Comhairle ask Deputy Buttimer to withdraw that remark?

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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No, Deputy Adams should resume his seat. I do not know what he is talking about.

Photo of Pearse DohertyPearse Doherty (Donegal South West, Sinn Fein)
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Deputy Buttimer is under pressure.

Photo of Clare DalyClare Daly (Dublin North, Socialist Party)
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I am sure the Taoiseach agrees that it is not the time one gets out of bed that is important but what one does with that time. We have been caught somewhat unawares by the announcement this afternoon, given the unequivocal backing of the Taoiseach, the Tánaiste and every one of the Government team through every scandal in which Deputy Shatter has been involved. This includes, not least, the announcement over the weekend that he was guilty of a breach of law. It is the first time in our history a sitting Minister was deemed to be guilty of breaking the law. This is not just any Minister but one in the Department charged with responsibility for overseeing the data protection legislation. The Taoiseach and the ministerial team, including Deputy Varadkar not later than this morning, sought to dismiss and rubbish the findings of the Data Protection Commissioner even though it is well established as precedent in every jurisdiction that, where a Minister is found guilty of illegality or lying to Parliament, immediate resignation is the norm. While not bearing any personal grudge against the Minister, Deputy Shatter, everyone on this side of the House is amazed it has taken this long because in other jurisdictions he would have been long gone.

We say this particularly given the crisis he has weathered over the past 18 months, when the Taoiseach stood by him through the major scandals relating to the bugging of GSOC and the serious allegations of Garda malpractice put forward by Sergeant Maurice McCabe. Let us remember that Maurice McCabe, who last week had to make a complaint about bullying he is experiencing from members of the Garda force at the moment, has been campaigning on these issues for five years. The report issued by Judge Guerin is based on allegations Maurice McCabe submitted to the Garda authorities and personally to the Assistant Commissioner - who, ironically, today applied to be Chief Constable of the PSNI. We were told and he was told by the Minister that there was no case to answer and that those matters had been investigated.

My questions to the Taoiseach are as follows. He has made the point a couple of times that GSOC did not co-operate with the Guerin inquiry. What does he mean by that? GSOC has been the butt of an undermining campaign by the former Minister on numerous occasions. I am aware that the former Garda Commissioner approached the Garda organisations and asked them to issue public statements of no confidence in GSOC at the time of the bugging applications. What is the implication of the Taoiseach's remarks that GSOC did not co-operate? This is the body charged with Garda accountability. The problem is far deeper than Deputy Shatter. Does the Taoiseach accept now that we need a root and branch review of the entire operation of An Garda Síochána, and does he accept that Professor Dermot Walsh's recommendations on Garda accountability should be implemented?

5:55 pm

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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When I say that GSOC did not co-operate with the senior counsel, I mean that GSOC expressed difficulties in respect of furnishing documentation to him. Clearly, Deputy Shatter, as Minister for Justice and Equality, pointed out on many occasions the inadequacies, as he saw them, of both the then confidential recipient structure and the structure of GSOC itself. If a properly functioning GSOC had been able to follow through on complaints made to it, this particular report might not have been necessary at all. I believe that when the Government considers the terms of reference for the commission of investigation that Mr. Guerin has recommended, the question of the adequacy of investigation by GSOC should be considered as part of these terms of reference. It is a matter for the Government to decide on this. In so far as An Garda Síochána is concerned, we also have a commission of investigation into other matters conducted by Mr. Justice Fennelly, which is under way. The terms of reference for this particular recommendation by Mr. Guerin will be considered by the Government next week. Everybody in the House will have the opportunity to contribute on the issue also, including Deputy Daly.

Photo of Clare DalyClare Daly (Dublin North, Socialist Party)
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I am even more confused than I was before the Taoiseach started. Will the Taoiseach advise us whether Deputy Shatter has resigned as Minister for Defence also?

The root of this issue is Garda accountability. This is a more serious issue than the issue of the Minister himself. He defended lock, stock and barrel the operation of the Garda when Deputy Wallace moved legislation last summer calling for reform. It has been our experience that GSOC desires to be what it was set out to be - a body to oversee complaints relating to the Garda force - but that it has been made toothless by the existing legislation.

I am not sure what the Taoiseach's implication is when he says GSOC had difficulties in providing information to Mr. Guerin. Is he saying GSOC could not find the information he asked for, or that it did not want to or was not willing to co-operate? What the Taoiseach said is a sort of veiled information. Would the Taoiseach agree with me that it is clear now that the issues around the Cooke inquiry with regard to the bugging of GSOC, which seems to be central to this whole issue, must now be brought under a proper commission of inquiry and that we must now take this opportunity to revitalise, redevelop and reconstitute An Garda Síochána in a manner that has not been done since the foundation of the State?

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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As the Deputy is aware, the Government has also made a decision that there should be a statutory and independent authority in respect of the running and structure of An Garda Síochána. The committee I chair on this had its first meeting last week and I expect that following the public consultation and discussions that will now take place we can come back in July with recommendations on setting up that structure and how it should operate. That matter will be reported to and discussed in the House.

I understand the report due in from Judge Cooke is on its way, but I do not have a date for it. When it comes to hand, I will treat it in the same fashion as this report. It will be published and laid before the House and its recommendations will be considered and, hopefully, implemented by the Government. The report is due shortly.