Barry Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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9. To ask the Minister for Environment, Community and Local Government to detail the number of households which will not have a water meter by the time charges are introduced; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [19553/14]

Barry Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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15. To ask the Minister for Environment, Community and Local Government when the full details of his Department's submission to the Commission for Energy Regulation's water charges policy will be released; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [19554/14]

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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25. To ask the Minister for Environment, Community and Local Government if he will indicate the level of water charges proposed per household; if he will endeavour to ensure that the level of charge does not become punitive or likely to cause hardship in the ongoing economic climate; if he will try to ensure a fair and equitable system that falls within the capacity of the householder to meet with the minimum of administrative intervention and cost; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [19550/14]

Thomas Pringle (Donegal South West, Independent)
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29. To ask the Minister for Environment, Community and Local Government if he will outline any decision that has been made regarding water charges and the details of a water tariff; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [19564/14]

Barry Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I received a response from the Minister this week in respect of an estimation on the part of the Department and Irish Water on how many households would be metered. The answer suggested that over 400,000 households out of approximately 1.1 million would be done by the end of this year. I was hoping for a more up-to-date response, to be honest. It might determine a quicker resolution to the Minister's difficulties with his partners in government in respect of resolving the issues that are outstanding. This is something we have been saying for some time. Obviously, there should be an indication of an estimation of the bill to be charged to those who will not have a meter installed, irrespective of the reason or whether it is because of protesters or the poor results rate, as indicated originally by those contracted.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. 9, 15, 25 and 29 together.

As the Deputy knows, the programme for Government sets out a commitment to introduce water charges based on usage above a free allowance. The Government considers that charging based on usage is the fairest way to charge for water and it has, therefore, decided that water meters should be installed in households connected to public water supplies. Some 200,000 meters have been installed to date under the national domestic water metering programme, which is one of the most ambitious metering programmes currently under way internationally.

Irish Water has indicated that it will have installed at least 400,000 meters by the end of this year, with 1.058 million properties to be metered by the end of 2016. Of the estimated 1.35 million domestic properties connected to public water supplies, approximately 300,000 will not be metered as part of the current phase due to the cost or technical difficulty in doing so. These properties will include apartment blocks, other multi-occupancy buildings and houses with shared service connections. My Department has funded a study commissioned by Irish Water on possible approaches to metering these properties not as part of the current metering programme but as part of a programme in 2015. The findings of this report are currently being assessed.

Domestic water charges will commence from 1 October 2014 and Irish Water will issue the first bills in January 2015. The approach to charging will be outlined by Irish Water in a water charges plan to be submitted by the company to the Commission for Energy Regulation. The regulator will be responsible for approving the water charges plan and the Water Services (No. 2) Act 2013 provides that Irish Water can collect charges from its customers in respect of water services provided.

As everyone knows, the Government is currently considering proposals on the funding model. The proposals include measures to support the affordability of water charges, including the provision of a free allowance in accordance with the commitment in the programme for Government.

In respect of metering generally, I have been engaged in recent weeks with Irish Water to advance the metering programme as strongly as we possibly can to have 75% of all houses or domestic dwellings metered by the end of 2015.

Barry Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Minister for his response. The Minister said that he has funded a study and asked more consultants to carry out work. He is paying them to analyse and recommend to him and to Irish Water a means or mechanism by which pricing may be levied on those who have no meter installed. When was this study initiated? When was it recommended? When was it tendered? When did it commence? When did it conclude? Is this part of the process or jigsaw that is not yet in place and which has forced an undue, unforeseen and unnecessary delay since last January? This follows commitments made by all sides of the current Government on openness, transparency, accountability and information flow to us and others in this process. We understood that we would have been given an indication at least of what the cost might be to consumers, irrespective of their ability or allowances and so on. This information would allow us to engage more directly, formally and openly with those from whom we are seeking support at the doors, as are many others throughout the House.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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An in-house study is being carried out by the engineering staff in my Department and Irish Water to see what can be done about particular categories of apartments and shared service connections and about how we can actually meter those properties more quickly than we anticipated. We are expecting to be able to meter some of those properties in 2015. Arising from the survey carried out by local authorities, Irish Water and ourselves we now expect approximately 48,000 of the properties to be metered. It has nothing to do with the ambitious metering programme for straightforward domestic dwellings. It is to examine how we can bring more meters into play in apartments as well as to examine the problems associated with shared connections. We have identified that there are approximately 300,000 of these properties and we believe in 2015 between 48,000 and 50,000 of these can be metered.

If a dwelling is not metered the occupant will be on an assessed charge in the meantime. Then, when the dwelling becomes metered the occupant will be in a position to pay according to the meter. As the Deputy is aware, we will be considering the issue of a rebate for people who believe their assessed charge was far higher than the subsequent metered charge.

Barry Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Some moments ago I detailed many questions in response to the Minister's answer. I hope the record of the House will show, list and detail those questions. The Minister has said that the problem has become apparent to him to such an extent that he has had to initiate a new study to address the prospect of many houses not being metered. The Minister has only now or recently acknowledged that number is far more than had been envisaged.

Despite the huge expense and great cost to the taxpayer of establishing the quango that is Irish Water, the bonus-driven culture that exists within it and the amount given to many consultants for expertise which we were led to believe was already within Bord Gáis but which actually was not, here we are again today being informed of more expenditure-----

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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It is not more expenditure.

Barry Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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-----in a similar fashion to that which caused the debacle in January. Have we learned nothing during this sorry process over the past three years? We have learned doubly nothing since January. I am very disappointed and perturbed to hear today, four months after the debacle in January, that more funds are being expended on consultants in an effort to establish how they might set a charge on those properties which cannot be metered. It is truly amazing.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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If the Deputy wants to tell lies about what I said, he can do so.

Barry Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I asked direct questions so the Minister might respond to them in writing.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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There is no need for further consultants to do this work. It is an in-house job involving Irish Water and the Department. This is what we will do. For the Deputy's information, we spent €12 million on consultants and not €85 million. One needs hardware and software to establish a new business.

Barry Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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It most definitely was €85 million.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Outsourcing.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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If the Deputy wants to believe his own rhetoric, that is fine. We have already made savings of €120 million with regard to setting up the new entity compared to the traditional model of delivering water. We will have one entity rather than 34 local authorities. In time, people will see that the savings we make will be put into the provision of essential water supplies in a better capital programme. The Deputy can tell this to the people of Greystones in north Wicklow who are suffering today because of another inferior system failing in the Roundwood plant, which is in urgent need of investment. We will get on with borrowing money from the markets to double the level of investment and spend an enormous amount of money in the coming years on building up and sorting out a system in which Fianna Fáil under-invested. The Deputy is on record as being in favour of the proposal to establish a semi-State company-----

Barry Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Not the quango that is Irish Water.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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-----and he is on record as being in favour of water charges, which I welcome.

Barry Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I have no problem with the concept but the pipes have not been fixed yet.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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In Esker Hills and Oakleaf Place in Portlaoise and in parts of Portarlington, meters that were fitted in recent years are being ripped out. This includes the meter boxes, which turned out to be the wrong size to take the new meters being fitted now by Uisce Éireann. Is Minister aware of this?

Who will check the meter afterwards to see whether there are leaks and who will pay the cost of the leaks? In the Dublin area and other counties this cost will be picked up by the local authority.

Building control officers have done a good job to ensure the infrastructure in local authority estates being taken in charge is up to scratch. In the case of a new estate being taken in charge, will Uisce Éireann sign off on it? Will it be done through the local authority under the service level agreement or must it go through big bureaucracy in Dublin again? Will the Minister explain this?

Clare Daly (Dublin North, Socialist Party)
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The Minister made the point that in his opinion a charge on the basis of usage is the fairest way. Does he not think the fairest way is to treat water as a public service which should be funded by our central taxation system on a progressive basis, with people consuming it based on their needs? Is he aware of international studies which reveal that the impact of the installation of water meters on consumption is a reduction of approximately 10% and that an equivalent reduction could be achieved through an education programme? The only purpose of installing a meter is to isolate the individual household supply to tee it up for privatisation in future.

Mick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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The Minister keeps talking about the inferior system and blames the previous Government for doing nothing about it. Would it not have been better business for the Government to fix the leaks in the pipes before it put in meters? Surely it would have been a better business plan. When I put this to the Minister, Deputy Howlin, in 2012 he stated that the pipes would be fixed before meters were installed, but this is not what has happened.

A company is installing Irish Water meters. Does the Minister have any concerns that the subcontractors working for the main company pay their workers below the rate? Is it a concern for the State if it is employing a company which is in turn employing subcontractors whose workers are paid below the rate? Does the Minister have direct input to this?

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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To answer the last question first, if Deputy Wallace can bring to my attention any specific examples in which subcontractors are not paying the proper rate I will be glad to investigate them.

It will require €10 billion over the next 12 years to repair the leaking system we have. There has been under-investment over the years. A total of €120 million will be spent between last year, this year and next year as part of the pipe rehabilitation network in places such as Roundwood and Ballymore Eustace, and we need to spend more to deal with the Victorian pipe network which has not been touched in the past 110 years.

To answer Deputy Daly, the minute meters have been installed in the group water sector and businesses there has been a 15% reduction in consumption. There is a demand-led solution and a supply-side solution. We have evidence of this. We do not have the evidence the Deputy mentioned.

Clare Daly (Dublin North, Socialist Party)
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You do, actually.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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If Deputy Daly wants to propose cutting budgets for housing, health, education or social protection to provide more capital funding for water, let her make this proposal. We have finite resources.

Clare Daly (Dublin North, Socialist Party)
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Tax a few multinationals.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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Otherwise we will have to increase income tax on workers. Is this what the Deputy advocates?

Clare Daly (Dublin North, Socialist Party)
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Maybe a few multinationals might pay a few bob.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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Perhaps she advocates more taxes on the so-called working person whose side she is on, as she has clearly indicated over the years.

Clare Daly (Dublin North, Socialist Party)
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Those on six-figure salaries, yes.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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The matters raised by Deputy Stanley are operational matters.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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That is a poor answer. Do not give me that.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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How does the Deputy expect me to know what is going on in Esker Hills? Ask Deputy Cowen - he lives nearer.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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They are ripping out new meters. I asked three questions.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I will not get involved in answering questions on operational matters in the House-----

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Who checks the meters?

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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-----and the Deputy should not insult the intelligence of people by expecting me to know the answer. A first fix policy will be implemented by the Government-----

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Who checks the meters for leaks?

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy asked a question about this. Let me answer it. Under the capital programme we will examine introducing a first fix free policy with regard to the area between the boundary of the property and the house, because people should not have to pay for legacy issues such as leaks for which they had no direct responsibility. Protocols have been worked out between Irish Water and local authorities with regard to unfinished estates to ensure matters are not held up. There are a number of issues with unfinished estates, as my colleague will point out, with regard to receiverships, liquidations and legal issues, but with regard to water-----

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Who signs off on the water network in an estate? Is it Uisce Éireann or the local authority?

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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Irish Water and local authorities are working out a protocol, which will be resolved in the near future.