Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Fianna Fail)
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8. To ask the Minister for Education and Skills if he will revise the guidance counsellor changes he has made; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [16471/14]

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Fianna Fail)
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I am asking the Minister to revisit a decision he made early in his tenure when he decided that the guidance counselling role would move from an ex-quota position to one within the overall teacher allocation, thereby effectively reducing the pupil-teacher ratio in schools and limiting the subject choice available in many schools throughout the country.

That decision has had a detrimental effect in schools and on students, particularly the most vulnerable students. Will the Minister of State reconsider the matter?

Ciarán Cannon (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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I do not intend to revise the changes made in budget 2012 whereby guidance counselling is provided from within the overall staffing allocation of a school. This gives schools greater autonomy to determine how they deploy their teaching resources across the competing needs of schools. With economic recovery and as our budgetary position permits, when the Government is in a position to consider improving the teaching resources for schools, it would not be desirable to return to a situation where there would be a separate allocation for guidance in schools. The principal and leadership of a school should have discretion in deciding on how teachers are deployed for certain purposes. Furthermore, a separate allocation creates a false demarcation and creates an impression that supporting students through guidance and counselling is dependent exclusively on guidance counsellors. Guidance and counselling are a whole school responsibility, with guidance counsellors playing their part within an overall team approach.

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Fianna Fail)
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I am rarely appalled in the House, but I am appalled by the Minster of State's response. One realises the seriousness of the economic difficulties we face and appreciates that every Minister is challenged to deal with them, but it is appalling for him to say that when conditions improve, he will not revisit the guidance issue. For 40 years successive Ministers for Education saw to it that principals and vice principals and guidance counsellors were ex-quota. Students need more guidance today than in any period in the past because of the plethora of social problems that confront them and the challenges in the context of progression to third level. Initially, I would have said this was sleight of hand on the part of the Department, but it appears from the Minister for State's response that this is a deliberate policy that is to the detriment of students.

Ciarán Cannon (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy may be aware that the initial policy idea around mainstrreaming guidance provision and sharing responsibility for it across the teaching community in individual schools came from principals. Since September 2012 guidance provision has been organised by school management from within the staffing schedule allocation. There is every reason to expect, as the country's economic position improves, that additional teaching resources will be made available to schools, but it is and should remain the decision of the school managers, board of management and teaching staff how the resources are allocated. There is no reason to make a distinctive demarcation between the role of the guidance counsellor and the implied role of guidance counselling across the teaching profession. That is the thinking behind this. It is not about limiting resources for schools; it is about giving them the autonomy to make the decision and suggesting to other teachers that they have a significant role to play in guidance provision. Such provision can take place in a formal classroom setting or outside the classroom, while a one-to-one service should be available for pupils who are experiencing difficulties.

With regard to schools subject to significant challenges, the Department helped to shelter the impact on DEIS post-primary schools by improving their standard staffing allocation. All 195 second level schools in DEIS have been given targeted supported by a more favourable staffing schedule of 18.25:1. This is a 0.75 reduction compared to the existing PTR of 19:1 that applies in non-fee paying second level schools.

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Fianna Fail)
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Section 9(c) of the 1998 Act places direct responsibility on the Minister and schools to provide guidance counselling. The Minister of State is not in a position, given what he has said, to honour his commitments to students throughout the country. He is involved in a process of false economy and the costs to the Department and the State in the long term will be greater as a result of the increased social problems, with which students will have to contend, and difficulties with progression to third level, with increasing numbers of students dropping out in first and second year because adequate counselling was not available to them and they failed to make the correct choices based on what was suitable for them.

Seán Sherlock (Cork East, Labour)
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That is a paternalistic attitude to education.

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister of State is engaged in a false economy.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
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Unfortunately, the Minister of State is diminishing the importance of the guidance counsellor's role. He said it should be left to the school to decide whether these services should be provided by a guidance counsellor or other teachers. He failed to acknowledge the training and qualifications of guidance counsellors. He is trying to pass on the responsibility these qualified professionals have delivered up to now to all the members of the teaching staff in schools and saying it is not important to have qualified guidance counsellors to carry out that role in each school and providing a good service for students. It is a worrying development and the Minister of State needs to revisit the issue. We cannot have what was built up over years eroded by the approach he is taking and the diminishing respect he is giving to the availability of the service in schools.

Ciarán Cannon (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy is diminishing the role of teachers. Many teachers, particularly in post-primary schools, may not be described as qualified guidance counsellors, but they have a deep knowledge of the options available to young people in choosing their third level path. As resources improve, it will be fully within the power of school principals and boards of management to make a decision to make a unique guidance counselling service available, but that decision will be taken by schools as they see fit in the best interests of their students. I do not suggest a diminished guidance service will be available to young people in the future. It will be enhanced and delivered across the school system and if schools choose to provide a unique guidance counselling service, they will have the autonomy and independence to make that decision.

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Fianna Fail)
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If the Minister of State believes that, God help us all.

Seán Sherlock (Cork East, Labour)
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What about parental responsibility?