Billy Kelleher (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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At the heart of the Government's policy in the programme for Government are two key issues with regard to health, the introduction of free GP care for all by end of the lifetime of the Government and the establishment of universal health insurance after the next election. By any stretch of the imagination and to say the very least and be polite, progress to date has been minimal. There is now a situation where the funding model that is being proposed by the Minister for Health is a form of universal health insurance and, at the same time, two key Ministers in government, the Minister for Finance and the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, are cynically undermining that proposal. Before the previous general election, the Minister for Health, Deputy Reilly, said no one would pay any more than they are paying already for health insurance. Clearly, that has not happened, with massive increases in private health insurance costs, year in, year out, in the interim, forcing families to abandon it at a rate of up to 6,500 people a month.

We await the publication of the White Paper on universal health insurance. Last Monday the Minister for Finance was quite robust in undermining the principle of universal health insurance, saying it would expose the State and families to huge costs. This is coupled with the leaks last week from the office of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Howlin, that families will have to pay up to €1,600 for the basic health cover that is being proposed by the Minister, Deputy Reilly.

First, does the Tánaiste agree that the panacea announced by the Minister, Deputy Reilly, three years ago, where nobody would pay any more than they are already paying, is now a fallacy in the sense that people are already paying substantial sums over and above that? Second, when will the White Paper be published in order that we can have an informed debate on this issue? We are depending on scraps and leaks from Government and from individual Ministers trying to undermine what is a central core principle of this Government in regard to the delivery of universal health insurance. Does the Tánaiste agree the White Paper should be published immediately and that we should have an informed debate on it? Clearly, the document we published last year would indicate it will not be utopia if we introduce universal health insurance, as proposed by the Minister, Deputy Reilly, because, simply put, it will cost an awful lot more than people are paying in private health insurance at present. Is the Labour Party happy with giving over health insurance to private companies-----

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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They are never happy.

Billy Kelleher (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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-----which will decide whether health is rationed and what sort of basic policies will be put in place with regard to cover for ordinary families in this country?

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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The Government is agreed to the introduction of a policy of universal health insurance. That has been the policy of my party for more than a decade. It is something that is coming after a period of Fianna Fáil Government when it showed no interest in reforming the unfair two-tier health system we have had for a long time in this country. It still does not, of course, which is why it has opposed the Government's proposals to give a break to families with a medical card for their children.

This Government believes people should be treated based on medical need, not on the amount of money they have in their pockets, so people who get sick know they can get treated in good time. We also want to change the incentives to the health system in order that the majority of people get treated in their communities and do not end up unnecessarily in accident and emergency or in a hospital bed. That makes sense when it comes to keeping people healthy and spending taxpayers' money in a way that is most effective. That is why, for example, the Government has put an emphasis on putting in place the building blocks for a universal health insurance system. It is why we decided to lower the cost of accessing primary care for people, starting with the introduction of free GP visits for children aged five and under. It is also why we are building up the primary care system.

The introduction of universal health insurance is a major reform project. It is not going to happen overnight and it is important we get it right. We are not rushing it. There is a lot of preparatory work that has to be done and the White Paper is part of that. It will be the basis for the consultation, including what should be included in the guaranteed basket of services. Other preparatory work is also ongoing, such as the introduction of the money follows the patient concept across the public hospital system and free GP visits for those aged five and under. Regarding cost, as I said, we must proceed cautiously. We want a more efficient health system that delivers better value for taxpayers and we also need to keep health insurance affordable.

We are at an early stage in this. The Department of Public Expenditure and Reform and the Department of Finance, as one would expect them to do, are doing their job, which is to probe the costings and to maintain an oversight of policy in terms of its cost implications at an early stage. We want, over time, to reform the health service in order that it treats people as early and efficiently as possible. To do that, we want to keep health costs affordable for families and for the taxpayer. The alternative, of course, is the Fianna Fáil alternative, which is to do nothing and to allow a drift. That is not acceptable to us. The White Paper is being prepared. It will be published in the not too distant future and it will provide an opportunity then for all of us to have an input into the discussion on how universal health insurance is progressed.

Billy Kelleher (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Labour Party may have been proposing a universal health insurance model but it was on a funding system of social insurance as opposed to private insurance companies funding the health model. There is quite a large difference between the two.

At the outset, the Tánaiste said the Government wants to introduce a policy that would give access to people based on their medical need as opposed to their ability to pay. In the last couple of months, it has decided to announce free GP care for those aged under six but, at the same time, it is funding that particular initiative by taking medical cards off the sickest in our society. The idea that the Tánaiste would come into the House and say the Government wants to ensure people will access treatment based on their need simply is not credible when one looks at what the Government has done in regard to discretionary medical cards, week in, week out, withdrawing them from the sickest and most vulnerable in society.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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It is a stunt.

Billy Kelleher (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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Does the Tánaiste accept that, after three years, we now have a situation where the Minister for Health has been completely isolated in government? The Minister for Finance, by his policies, consistently undermines the basic principle of universal health insurance, which is a dynamic private health insurance market where people can afford insurance. Every policy the Minister for Finance has introduced in this House has undermined that basic principle, including the capping of tax relief on insurance premiums and now a further threat to remove tax relief altogether from hard-pressed families.

The Government is talking about a universal health insurance model whereby health insurance companies will be the ones who will fund the system through people taking out health insurance. By any stretch of the imagination and looking at it coldly and clinically, the Government is undermining that basic principle, day in, day out, by the policies it has pursued for the past three years. When will the White Paper be published and will it have detail and costings? The public want to know whether the Minister, Deputy Howlin, is scaremongering or telling the truth with regard to a cost of €1,600 per person for universal health insurance.

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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Let me correct a number of issues of fact. First, the Labour Party position on universal health insurance, which was initially published in 2001, provided for and proposed that there should be a number of health insurers which would be part of universal health insurance, one of which would be a public service provider. That was and is the position of the Labour Party in regard to universal health insurance.

Billy Kelleher (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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It is not the position of the Government.

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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Second, with regard to medical cards, Deputy Kelleher is also wrong.

This Government is providing 500,000 more medical cards to people than Fianna Fáil did when it was in Government.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Allow the Tánaiste to continue.

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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In fact, it is more. A total of 590,000-----

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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We are not in the business of shouting down people. Will Deputies allow the Tánaiste to reply to Deputy Kelleher?

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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There are now 590,000 more medical cards in the system than there were when Fianna Fáil was in government. That is a fact. I cannot understand why Fianna Fáil continues to oppose the Government's plan to provide free GP care to children under six. It is something that will take pressure off families and it is also an essential building block for the introduction of a universal health insurance system. As I said, the introduction of universal health insurance cannot be done overnight.

Billy Kelleher (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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It was promised it would be done overnight.

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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It was not. Deputy Kelleher should at least inform himself and do a little bit of research before he comes in here. It was not promised-----

Billy Kelleher (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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On a point of information, the White Paper was to be published 18 months after the Government was formed, and the Government was formed three years ago.

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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It was never intended that it would be introduced overnight. It is something that requires careful consideration, which is why there will be a White Paper. The White Paper will be published when it is ready. I do not expect that this will be very far into the future. Deputy Kelleher will then have an opportunity to condemn and criticise it, as inevitably he will do.

Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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Since mid-December, this State has been battered by a series of very devastating storms. The hardship, destruction and devastation have been outlined in a series of debates we have had in the House. I know the Tánaiste and various Ministers have visited those communities that have been affected. Thanks to the work of local authorities and local communities with the assistance of Government funding, many of those areas are now starting to get back on their feet. However, it will be a long journey for a lot of people. Some people may never get the opportunity to re-open their businesses because of the devastation that has been caused and the fact that they were unable to get insurance for previous incidents of flooding. Some areas are living in a constant state of readiness waiting for the next flooding event. My own city of Cork and County Cork, which the Minister of State, Deputy Brian Hayes, visited very quickly after the last bout of flooding, was devastated with the city centre suffering devastation to unprecedented levels.

At the time, we needed to deal with three issues. The first was the immediate assistance that needed to be provided to home owners and business owners, and that phase has now concluded or is at least very well advanced. The second related to business owners and home owners who were unable to get insurance. I know the Minister of State is working hard on that issue with the insurance companies trying to get a memorandum of understanding. The Tánaiste might give us an update on that. The third phase, which was outlined by the Government, was investing in flood defences in the longer term. At the time, the Tánaiste stated that about €250 million would be invested over the next five years. We all know that this will not be enough to meet the challenges facing the State. In Cork, it is estimated that about €100 million is needed to put flood defences in place.

My question relates to EU assistance. I know the EU solidarity fund is only available for assistance in the immediate aftermath of flooding and will not help with capital projects and that the bar has been set very high. It is estimated that the amount of flooding damage and devastation would have to be in the region of €700 million for us to be able to apply for that. On 20 February 2014, the Tánaiste said his Department and the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform are in discussions with the European Commission about the possibility of getting EU assistance in terms of funding to help alleviate flooding. Could he give us an update on those discussions? Are they still ongoing or have they concluded? If so, what was the outcome? My second question concerns an update. The Minister of State might be able to inform the Tánaiste of the discussions with the insurance industry.

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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I agree with Deputy O'Brien that it is a devastating experience for families and households affected by the flooding. It is devastating for residential buildings and businesses and is something that will take a very long time to recover from. I also want to put on record my appreciation and that of the Government for all those who worked so hard to help people out in the immediate aftermath of the flooding. They include people in the utility companies, employees of local authorities, public servants and those involved in the voluntary effort that was contributed to by people at a local level. I saw this very recently when I visited Limerick and saw the impact of the flooding there and the work that people in the community did to help others out. I also want to put on record my tribute to the late Michael O'Riordan who lost his life helping people to get their electricity restored.

The Government's response to the flood crisis was, first, to make funding available for the immediate issues. That was done through the Minister for Social Protection. Second, we have provided €70 million to deal with the aftermath of the flooding, mainly in infrastructural works and so on. The local authorities are producing submissions and many of them have submitted them to the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government who is considering them. The third dimension, which was mentioned by Deputy O'Brien, is the issue of flood defences.

Deputy O'Brien asked me two particular questions. The first is where we are going on the European front. We are still in discussions with the Commission in respect of what assistance can be provided from European funding for flood relief. I must say, however, that the threshold is very high and I do not believe it will make a significant contribution to the cost we must bear in dealing with the flood issue. However, the Minister of State has been in discussion with the European Investment Bank, particularly in respect of the flood defences issue, and is making considerable progress in that area. Deputy O'Brien also asked about the issue of insurance. Again, the Minister of State has been in discussion with the insurance companies and expects to be able to complete a memorandum of understanding with them within the next two months.

Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Tánaiste for his reply. I welcome the fact that within two months, we hope to conclude those discussions with the insurance industry. It will come as a relief if we can get a positive outcome for those businesses and home owners who, through no fault of their own, find themselves unable to get insurance. That would certainly be a very welcome development and I wish the Minister of State the best of luck with that.

Do the discussions with the European Investment Bank relate to flood relief assistance or are we looking at discussions in respect of getting capital funding to help with flood defences? The Tánaiste also mentioned that the threshold for getting assistance from the EU Solidarity Fund is set very high. In a reply to a recent parliamentary question, the Tánaiste said we would be looking at damage of up to around €700 million to qualify. I hope we would never see that level of devastation as a result of weather conditions. It is very unlikely we would ever qualify for assistance from the EU Solidarity Fund because of the very high bar that has been set. Is it a commitment from this Government to try to have discussions on the possibility of changing the criteria to lower the bar in order that in the event of future flooding, this State would be able to get some assistance for immediate flood relief? Is that part of the ongoing discussions with the European Commission in which the Tánaiste is currently involved?

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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The discussions with the European Investment Bank relate to capital works so the funding would be mainly for flood defences. As the Deputy knows, the European Investment Bank is already assisting us with some of the capital programme, for example, some of the education and transport projects that are under way.

We are in discussions with the European Investment Bank to determine if we can make the capital works that are associated with flood defences amenable to EIB funding. The Deputy mentioned his assessment of how far the €250 million that we have committed to will go in terms of dealing with flood defences. We are conscious of that and, therefore, are considering ways in which the EIB can assist us. That is on the capital side.

The EU Solidarity Fund operates on the basis of a percentage of GDP. For this reason, we estimate that we would need to have suffered damage amounting to €700 million to qualify. The fund was established on a Europe-wide basis, but we are trying to determine whether it can be broken down on a regional basis. Weather impacts vary from region to region, in which case the threshold might be lower for those of us in this part of Europe. This is one of our discussions on the matter. As with any issue such as this, we are trying to determine how we can maximise draw-down from the EU programme. It seems that we would probably qualify for little, if anything, from the Solidarity Fund as it is currently constituted. Therefore, we are likely to bear the cost ourselves. However, we are in discussions on how the fund might be adjusted on a regional basis to enable us to qualify for funding.

Stephen Donnelly (Wicklow, Independent)
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On Tuesday, we heard from the special liquidator of IBRC that it had secured the agreement of the bidders for the Irish Nationwide mortgages that they would voluntarily adhere to the code of conduct on mortgage arrears, CCMA. Yesterday, the special liquidator appeared before the finance committee. We heard of this voluntary agreement and that there would be no Central Bank oversight, sanctions or recourse to the financial ombudsman. We found out that the voluntary agreement was not even written down. From the perspective of the families affected it is fair to say that the voluntary agreement is not worth the paper it is not even written on.

The Irish Nationwide mortgage holders want to bid on their own mortgages but they have been refused. The rationale supplied by the liquidator and the Minister for Finance, Deputy Noonan, for this was that allowing the mortgage holders to bid for their own mortgages could drive down the total sales price, exposing the State to legal challenge from creditors. The sales process is based on a report by PricewaterhouseCoopers which the Minister has refused to release and which the special liquidator has not yet released. However, we found out some useful information about the report from the special liquidator yesterday.

The report recommended a single course of action, which is the one being followed. It did not evaluate different options in terms of the sales price. The liquidator agreed with the finance committee or, rather, told us that sales prices in various scenarios were not provided. In other words, the liquidator has not been provided with advice on what the sales prices would be if mortgage holders were allowed to bid and if they were not. It is still entirely possible that allowing the families to bid for their own mortgages would garner the same sales prices, or even more, than the current process does.

The media has highlighted one example today, that of Mr. Duncan Bannantyne. He offered the special liquidator 97 cent on the euro for his loans, but they were sold yesterday as part of a tranche to Lone Star for 60 cent on the euro, thereby getting €55 million less.

There is still an opportunity but time is ticking. Based on the information that the liquidator provided to us yesterday, he is acting on incomplete advice. In response to a parliamentary question yesterday, the Minister confirmed to me that neither he nor any of his officials had seen the report on which this sales process is based. Does the Tánaiste agree that there is an opportunity to pause the process and for the Minister, his officials or the finance committee to conduct a thorough investigation into whether another process can be designed that would allow the families to bid while making the same returns to the liquidator? We have a small window of opportunity to do considerable good for the many thousands of families that own these mortgages.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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Hear, hear.

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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As I understand it, the special liquidator has reached agreement with the phase 2 bidders for the IBRC mortgage book. The agreement provides that, if successful in acquiring the portfolio, the phase 2 bidders will ensure that the relevant acquired mortgage loans are serviced in accordance with the Central Bank's CCMA. The special liquidator appeared before the finance committee yesterday and explained its decision. I understand that it was aware of the anxieties of mortgage holders and had noted the concerns expressed in recent weeks by the Minister for Finance and other Members of the Oireachtas.

I welcome this positive announcement and remind the House that the Government has always been clear, in that we will ensure mortgage holders retain the protection of the CCMA. As previously stated, however, if it becomes evident that the voluntary application of the code is not delivering the requisite protection for mortgage holders in arrears, the Government will introduce the required legislation.

Looking beyond the IBRC loan book sale and as discussed by the finance committee, the Department of Finance, the Central Bank and the Attorney General's office are examining the applicability of the CCMA to unregulated firms and the need for legislation in that regard. We have continuously stated that we expect any purchaser of the IBRC mortgage portfolio to service it in accordance with the CCMA. This remains the position.

As the Deputy is aware, the sales process is being undertaken by the special liquidator as part of the liquidation process. It operates independently on its own legal basis, but the Government is clear in its desire to protect the interests of the mortgage holders. There have been two previous sales of loan books. In both cases, the purchasers agreed to the continued operation of the CCMA. In the current case, the two bidders have given an undertaken to follow suit. If they do not deliver on that undertaking, the Government will introduce whatever legislation is required.

Stephen Donnelly (Wicklow, Independent)
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I can only assume that the Tánaiste picked up the wrong piece of paper to read. I did not ask him about legislation on the CCMA. I asked him whether we could pause the sales process to figure out whether another could be devised in which families would be allowed to bid on their own mortgages while returning the same or greater value to the liquidator.

I will provide a quick example from the protest outside Leinster House. A gentleman with whom I spoke who lives in a home with his wife and their children owes €220,000 and will not be in a position to repay it. The liquidator will sell the gentleman's mortgage for a conservative estimate of €100,000, although it could be as little as €50,000. The man and his wife could refinance at €150,000, but they are not being given that opportunity.

When I put my next comment to the liquidator yesterday, he did not disagree. What is likely to happen is that one of the two final bidders, both of which are funds from the US that specialise in distressed assets, will buy the family's €220,000 mortgage for approximately €100,000, quickly ascertain that the man and his wife cannot pay the former amount and, after ascertaining that there is equity in the house, initiate repossession proceedings and evict him, his wife and his children. On the basis that the liquidator is acting on imperfect information and the Minister has not even seen the advice, it is clear that a process could be devised that would allow this man, his wife and children and thousands of other families to stay in their homes through buying back their mortgages at the same prices or even more. However, those mortgages are about to be sold to international funds that invest in distressed assets.

On the basis that what is about to happen is going to cause enormous and unnecessary distress to tens of thousands of men, women and children------

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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You are way over time.

Stephen Donnelly (Wicklow, Independent)
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-----can the Tánaiste please examine whether the sales process can be paused so we can at least try to figure out a process that allows these people to stay in their homes while still returning the same amount, or more, to the liquidator?

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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Deputy Donnelly is very knowledgeable and he knows how the liquidation process works. He also knows the risks to the taxpayer of an interference by the State in the liquidation process. It is easy to say "let us pause the sale". There are consequences to that which might arise from actions taken by other creditors, and other people involved in the IBRC liquidation process. One would have to be very careful and be very sure that there would not be an exposure to the taxpayer of any such intervention of that kind.

This process is not concluded. The special liquidator told the committee that there are two bidders. Arising from the concerns about the position of the mortgage holders, those bidders have given an undertaking that they will comply with the CCMA, as was the case in the sale of two previous loan books that occurred. The sales process is not complete, and I do not think it is wise to begin speculating about where the sales process will end up. We do not know. That is a matter for the special liquidator. As far as the Government is concerned, we want to see the mortgage holders protected here. If the purchaser does not meet the commitments and standards that we expect, then the Government is prepared to legislate and such legislation would apply not just in the case of the IBRC mortgage holders, but in the case of all mortgage holders. In any event, repossession cases would have to go before the courts and we know the approach the courts are taking, which is to expect that the terms of the CCMA are applied.