Dáil debates

Wednesday, 26 February 2014

12:00 pm

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Yesterday in the House the Taoiseach announced the appointment of a senior counsel to deal with very serious issues pertaining to a dossier I sent him. I welcome that and I hope for at least an inquiry. However, I ask the Taoiseach to intervene in one aspect of the saga and try to bring it to some meaningful solution. It relates to the assertion and allegation on the floor of the House that the whistleblower, Sergeant Maurice McCabe, and Mr. Wilson did not co-operate with the investigation conducted by the assistant commissioner, Mr. O'Mahoney, into the penalty points saga. When a serious allegation of non-co-operation against a serving garda is made on the floor of the House, it either needs to be stood up or withdrawn with an apology made to the person.

I have gone through this at great length. The Minister's speech this morning does not deal with that aspect of it in any comprehensive or adequate way. The Road Safety Authority made it clear to the Minister that it regarded it as a major failing that he was not interviewed and, in fact, communicated that to the Minister, Deputy Shatter, I believe in the presence of the Minister, Deputy Varadkar. When it was asked for its views on the inquiry, it sent its views to the Minister, Deputy Varadkar, outlining that this was the major failing of the penalty points inquiry.

Based on the record of the Committee of Public Accounts, it seems that the only person in the entire system who made the accusation that Sergeant McCabe did not co-operate was the Minister, Deputy Shatter. To be fair, the assistant commissioner, Mr. O'Mahoney, did not make that assertion. When the Commissioner was pressed by Deputy McDonald at a committee meeting, he said:

When I was responding to Deputy Ross, I did so in the context of whether these people had been interviewed. The report from the Assistant Commissioner, having looked at the allegations and established the facts, did not see a need [to interview these people] on the basis that the Assistant Commissioner had not uncovered criminality. Therefore, there was no need to defer to the Director of Public Prosecutions. However, had it been the case that he saw clear evidence, or even a suspicion, of corruption or malpractice within the allegations he had before him, I presume that would have triggered those people being interviewed.
No one along the way has ever suggested that he was interviewed or that he did not co-operate. The only person was the Minister. He has gone to great lengths to try to justify that but it does not stack up. The simple way out of this would be to have that very serious claim of non-co-operation withdrawn. That would be the simplest way out of it. It would bring some resolution and clear the person's name. The person is anxious that his name be cleared.

Photo of Finian McGrathFinian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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All of them.

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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I call the Taoiseach.

Photo of Finian McGrathFinian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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The Minister should-----

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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I ask the Deputy not to enter into this debate. This is Leaders' Questions.

Photo of Finian McGrathFinian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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I know, but this is a serious issue.

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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I ask the Deputy to allow the two leaders to speak.

Photo of Finian McGrathFinian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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This is a very serious issue and the Minister should own up.

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy will have his chance to speak later.

A Deputy:

The Deputy will never be a leader

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The House is discussing a serious matter and a serious process has been put in place to deal with matters outlined in documents the Deputy gave me last week. At that time I said I believed he was right to give me those documents, and he was correct in doing that. It does not mean he was right in everything else, from my point of view, in his charges about maladministration and incompetence on behalf of the Minister.

The Minister, Deputy Shatter, set out this morning the chronology of events that happened here, the action that had been taken by him on receiving the documentation in the Department of Justice and Equality, and the follow-through on that, arising out of which came the O'Mahoney investigation being put in place. The Minister tried very hard to set out here his understanding-----

Photo of Finian McGrathFinian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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His understanding of the word.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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----- of what the connections and the communication to Sergeant McCabe were. Obviously Sergeant McCabe had a different perspective on that. The Minister, Deputy Shatter, will be answering questions again at the end of this series of statements. I welcome the statement from Sergeant McCabe in respect of the process that is now in place. Deputy Martin asked me the question yesterday, and I reiterate for him that the senior counsel will engage directly with Sergeant McCabe in this matter, which is of considerable importance.

Members may now have their say during the course of statements today and the Minister will answer questions at the end of that. We now have a criminal lawyer to look at and assess the investigative methods and bring back a recommendation, hopefully before Easter. Let us see what that is. It also means direct engagement with Sergeant McCabe in regard to the matters Deputy Martin presented to me, which in part have been investigated either by the Commissioner, GSOC or in some references to the DPP.

The Minister has set out his point of view, including the communications and chronology of events as followed by him. People often have differences of opinion about what statements can actually mean. The Minister has dealt with this in his statement this morning and again yesterday.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Taoiseach for his reply. The Minister has not dealt with it this morning and, of course, we got a copy of his speech very late in the day during the delivery of his speech - I think for obvious reasons. He said that he relied on material that he received, detailing the content of a direction given to Sergeant McCabe on a related matter. No one has ever said and no one is saying that the inquiry team ever invited Sergeant Maurice McCabe to anything. It did not text him, e-mail him or interview him. That is a fact.

The Minister is now relying on one letter from an assistant secretary, which again did not invite him to any inquiry or whatever and only advised him to bring information to what was described as "his authorities". He said: "The situation is further complicated by the fact that between the finalisation of the O'Mahoney report and its publication, he declined to take up an offer from Assistant Commissioner O'Mahoney". It was not between the finalisation and publication of that. That conversation took place in the aftermath of the report having been sent to the Minister. The bottom line is that he was not asked and the Commissioner said at the Committee of Public Accounts that he was not asked.

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Does the Deputy have a question for the Taoiseach?

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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At no stage did the assistant commissioner, Mr. O'Mahoney, say that he did not co-operate. No one ever made that allegation until the Minister stood up on the floor of the House and said it. He is the only person who has made the allegation, which does not stack up at all.

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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I thank the Deputy.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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A whole range of opinions and evidence would suggest the Minister was wrong in saying what he said. Sometimes it is much simpler to simply acknowledge that. I ask the Taoiseach to ask the Minister to withdraw the statement he put on the record of the House which is upsetting the person concerned, is not true and does not accord with the facts.

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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I thank the Deputy.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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He was not invited in any shape or form to be interviewed by the O'Mahoney inquiry team, as the Commissioner said on the record of the Committee of Public Accounts when pressed by Deputies McDonald, Ross and others. It was very clear. This has become an issue because the Minister made a big mistake in saying that in the House. Everybody now has to track all over the place and trawl everywhere to see if they can get some document or something that defends what the Minister said in the House. It is only undermining the credibility of all the other actors in this saga.

Photo of Finian McGrathFinian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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The Minister should put up his hand and accept responsibility.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Martin is focusing on a political point.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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No.

Photo of Timmy DooleyTimmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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They are facts about the harm that was done to a man.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Yes he is. The Minister has said he respects whistleblowers - he said that in his statement.

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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It depends on where the whistle is.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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He is not satisfied with the Act which has been in place for some time and is now in the process of being changed. I am glad the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality will hold public hearings on how this might be restructured or reformed so that, based on the lessons learnt from all of this, it will not happen in the future.

The Deputy, as the leader of his party, understands that it has not worked in the way that people might have expected, so we have to change it, and these events have happened. It is also important that the Minister spelt out his series of actions in response to the charges that he did nothing following the material being received in the Department of Justice and Equality. The Minister is not one to deliberately mislead this House, no more than any other Minister - that is a serious charge.

12:10 pm

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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He did.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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From his perspective, he set out what his understanding of that was. Other people can have a different view as to what communications-----

Photo of Dara CallearyDara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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If the Taoiseach believes him why did he appoint Seán Guerin?

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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He knew that he was not-----

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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-----they received from the commission or whatever might be.

Photo of Timmy DooleyTimmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Now that the facts do not support the assertion.

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputies, please.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Martin knows-----

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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You wrote to him about being interviewed.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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-----that a much more serious issue are the allegations that were made by Sergeant McCabe in respect of the much publicised tragic case-----

Photo of Timmy DooleyTimmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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The facts do not support the assertion now.

(Interruptions).

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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-----of the murder in Limerick, but also allegations of Garda incompetence and misbehaviour in regard to assaults and other issues. That is the much more serious matter that we need to deal with here.

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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What he said in the House.

Photo of Timmy DooleyTimmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Ignore the other one.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The senior counsel appointed by Government will now engage directly with Sergeant McCabe in regard to the allegations that the Deputy Martin gave me.

Photo of Dara CallearyDara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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Therefore, the Taoiseach does not believe the Minister.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Sergeant McCabe sent a communication to the Department of the Taoiseach in April last year where he said, when he was speaking to the assistant commissioner:

I again remarked that I was concerned and seriously concerned that I was never contacted or interviewed and I informed the Assistant Commissioner that I had seen tens of thousands of corrupt terminations on PULSE and I hoped his report would reflect this. Alarmingly, he then asked me if I wanted to speak to someone on his investigation team and I ended our call having expressed concern about him not interviewing me.
This has happened.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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That was after the inquiry was finished.

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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After the fact.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Yes, but the report was not published and the Minister already said that in that event, if amendments had to be made to it then they would be made.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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He made the charge of non-co-operation.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy will have the opportunity to hear the Minister again in response to the statements here this evening.

Photo of Dara CallearyDara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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The Taoiseach is making it worse.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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It is very weak.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Minister has dealt with this aspect this morning in terms of the communications that his Department-----

Photo of Timmy DooleyTimmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Will the Taoiseach meet with the Minister, Deputy Shatter, and discuss it?

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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-----had following Deputy Martin's charge of no action being taken by him on receipt of very serious allegations received in the Department of Justice and Equality.

Photo of Dara CallearyDara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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Then why did you appoint Seán Guerin?

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Minister has pointed that out. Deputy Martin gave me these allegations, this documentation last week.

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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It is because he worked for Fine Gael in the tribunal.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Government has responded. There were three decisions yesterday-----

(Interruptions).

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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-----the direct engagement between the senior counsel and Sergeant McCabe, and I hope we can move on to find out the truth-----

Photo of Dara CallearyDara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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The Taoiseach does not believe in it.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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-----of the very serious matters that were raised about assaults and other elements of allegations of misconduct, incompetence or poor behaviour by gardaí. The bigger picture that the Deputy Martin and everyone else wants is that we have a Garda force that is transparent, accountable and competent and that the oversight body of GSOC can be reformed in a way that reflects that accurately for the citizens of our country.

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I want to put three issues to the Taoiseach followed by a question, all arising from the statement made today by the Minister, Deputy Shatter. The fact is, and Teachta Martin has dealt with this to some degree, that the Minister accused Garda Sergeant Maurice McCabe of not co-operating. That is clear. He did not take the opportunity to rectify that during his statement. In the Committee of Public Accounts in response to a question by Teachta Mary Lou McDonald, John O'Mahony responded that he did not interview Maurice McCabe and he did not seek to interview Maurice McCabe - so it is clear. There was an opportunity for the Minister to rectify that and he did not do so. I now ask the Taoiseach to consider doing so.

Second, the Minister did not even mention the sacking of the confidential recipient - the only head to roll. Could some explanation be given to this Oireachtas as to why this man was sacked?

Finally, because we did not get this clear yesterday, could the Taoiseach outline to me and explain to the Dáil why he did not establish an independent inquiry under the Commission of Investigations Act 2004 when he has at his disposal legislation which he could have utilised and when he has an Act whereby the person or persons appointed to conduct an investigation can compel all witnesses and documentation and make findings of fact without huge cost and in a timely fashion? I put this question to the Minister earlier but I ask the Taoiseach why did he himself not act in this manner? Why does the Government not set up an independent inquiry under the terms that are provided under the 2004 Act? Those are the three issues to which I would ask him to respond.

Photo of Finian McGrathFinian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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Where is the Labour Party?

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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In respect of the question that Deputy Martin asked, I referred to Garda Sergeant McCabe's own words when he spoke to Assistant Commissioner, John O'Mahony, when he was invited to make a contribution or information that he had available to the investigation team. He said he ended the call because he was alarmed that the assistant commissioner wanted to speak to someone on the investigation team, and that was before the report was published. Deputy Adams, like Deputy Martin, is focusing on a specific issue here. The bigger elements concern the material Deputy Michael Martin gave me, and he was right to give that to me because of the serious nature of the allegations.

Deputy Adams asked me why did we not set up a special investigation commission immediately. The truth of the matter is that a number of these bodies are completely independent of this House. GSOC is independent of the House. It was set up for a particular purpose, that of receiving complaints from citizens or in the case of gardaí who wished to make a complaint about elements in the force and that this could be done through the confidential recipient process. That has not worked. The Government approved an amendment to change the law in this regard - that gardaí or serving members can go directly to GSOC, which is utterly independent of this House, as is the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions, over which I have no authority, nor has the Deputy, nor has this House. In respect of the matters that were investigated by the Garda Commissioner, in some cases by the Director of Public Prosecutions, or in some cases by GSOC, two of those are completely independent bodies.

It is only right and proper that there should be the scoping exercise, to which the Government has agreed, as happened in the case of the scoping exercise in regard to the Morris tribunal. A similar instance arose when the Minister for Health initiated an inquiry in respect of the very serious matters that arose regarding the maternity situation in Portlaoise hospital. This scoping exercise can inform the Minister as to the need for a formal investigation or otherwise. In this case the decision of the Government will bring into focus the assessment of the investigative process that was followed arising from the allegations.

Deputy Martin gave me his documentation from Sergeant McCabe and one of the issues is an allegation that a garda perjured himself in court and was berated by the judge. That was part of a case that was brought to our attention. What was the outcome? Did this go the Director of Public Prosecutions, was there an independent decision, an investigation by the Garda Commissioner followed by the allegation from Sergeant McCabe? That is why it is necessary to have a proper scoping exercise by a qualified, competent person who can put all this in coherent manner and make a recommendation to me as Taoiseach for presentation to the Oireachtas. If that recommendation is that there be a requirement for a special investigation commission, then that is what will happen. That is clear. I believe it was the right and prudent thing to do, in view of all of the documentation, all of the reports, all of the allegations and all of the investigations that have taken place, to put that process in place and bring clarity and truth to it. That will enable us to focus on the serious issues that Deputy Michael Martin brought to my attention following the presentation to the Deputy Adams from Sergeant McCabe.

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Of course the allegations in the dossier are very serious but they are allegations. They are deeply wounding and traumatic for the victims' families and we need to appreciate all of that, but it is the Government's handling of these allegations which has caused the erosion of public confidence. If the Taoiseach misses that, he misses everything. We end up operating here in a bubble, impervious to the concerns of the citizens. The fact is that the Minister had the opportunity to set the record straight around the accusation that Maurice McCabe did not co-operate.

It is without question that the Minister miscalled that. He should be man enough to own up to that and, rather than defending him, the Taoiseach should have a word in his ear after this to try to rectify that particular element.

It may not be the most important element but we are in the public eye and we are used to the blizzard of media controversy that sometimes surrounds us. These are serving garda who are not used to, as their families are not used to, this type of treatment. I am not impressed or persuaded by the Taoiseach's defence of not going for the type of independent inquiry under the Commissions of Investigation Act that he has the ability to go for. He could have done that but he has decided not to. As we tell each other all the time here, politics is all about choice. The Taoiseach decided not to go for that option.

The Taoiseach also decided not to answer my question about the sacking of the confidential recipient. Summarily, he came to the House one day and announced that the guy was gone. Could we have an explanation? I was sent here by citizens who want me to represent their views. They are wondering what happened to this person. Could it be one of those strange ironies that he said to the-----

12:20 pm

Photo of Paul KehoePaul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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He did not disappear like Deputy Adams disappeared people.

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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That is the Government Whip, a Cheann Comhairle. I know I always ignore him but that is to set an example.

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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We are way over time.

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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He said: "I’ll tell you something, Maurice, and this is just personal advice to you, if Shatter thinks you’re screwing him, you’re finished." The person who said that is now gone. Could we be given an explanation? Could the Taoiseach, who announced this to the Dáil, explain under what terms of reference, what rules or what protocols this man was dismissed?

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Yes, it is called truth. The position is that the confidential recipient was appointed for a particular job - to receive confidential information from serving members of the Garda for transmission to the Commissioner or to the Minister for Justice and Equality. When the transcript arose of an alleged conversation that took place between the confidential recipient and Sergeant Maurice McCabe, the situation was that the Minister saw to it that the Department of Justice and Equality contacted the confidential recipient to see whether this was true. The allegations contained in the transcript were outrageous.

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Which ones?

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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In respect of the Minister's intentions, or rather the remarks about the Minister's possible intentions with a view to following through if confidential information was given. As the confidential recipient did not answer the question about whether he said these words, and if this was what he said, we could not have a situation where, without answering those straight questions, somebody could continue in that position. For that reason, his position became untenable. That is the answer to the Deputy's question.

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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So he denied the conversation.

Photo of Thomas PringleThomas Pringle (Donegal South West, Independent)
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He would not deny the conversation.

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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It was because he did not answer the question.

Photo of Róisín ShortallRóisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Independent)
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This gets worse.

Photo of Joan CollinsJoan Collins (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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I also to want to refer to the controversy regarding penalty points, surveillance of GSOC and the treatment of the Garda whistleblowers, Sergeant McCabe and former Garda John Wilson. In referring to it, it is quite clear that Mr. Shatter does not do apologies.

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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It is the Minister, Deputy Shatter, thank you.

Photo of Joan CollinsJoan Collins (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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It is quite clear that an investigation into an investigation is going to continue. However, what is also very clear is that there is an aggressive reluctance by senior gardaí to accept any form of meaningful accountability over what Garda Commissioner Callinan refers to as his force. This is the nub of the matter. It is also clear that the Minister, Deputy Shatter, has backed senior gardaí in this attitude. The real problem here is that an ordinary member of the public who has a complaint against the Garda or an individual garda faces, at best, an insurmountable set of obstacles in having their complaint taken seriously and properly investigated. At worst, they find themselves the target of harassment and intimidation, wrongful arrest, vexatious charges and so on.

I refer to a particular case and I will then put a question to the Taoiseach. I am aware of the 30 cases that were put to the Minister, Deputy Shatter, in October last by Justice for All. One of those involved Dr. Richard O'Flaherty, who was a nominated doctor in the Limerick area for both the Garda and the Prison Service for 40 years. He would be called to the Garda station to treat people under arrest. He had concerns about the maltreatment of patients in the Garda station, including beatings and denial of medical attention. He raised these issues on occasion when giving evidence in court. This brought him into conflict with certain gardaí and, at present, there is a GSOC investigation into allegations made by Dr. O'Flaherty of harassment and intimidation, including a serious assault by gardaí against him personally. It took two years, 12 letters and the expense of hiring a solicitor to convince GSOC to appoint a civil investigator. When someone in this situation faces such difficulty, what hope is there for ordinary citizens?

I put it to the Taoiseach that there is a problem of culture at the top. This is an opportunity for the Taoiseach and the Government to deal with the situation. Will the Taoiseach establish an independent police authority? Such an authority would appoint a Garda Commissioner, with the Commissioner to be accountable to the authority. Will he properly resource GSOC with real powers to investigate complaints, a commitment to investigate all complaints and put an end to gardaí investigating gardaí? Will he bring proper protection for whistleblowers and, just as important, protection of citizens who exercise their right to make complaints?

It is time to deal with this decisively. Otherwise, as we have been talking about it in the past and we are talking about it in the present, we will be talking about it into the future. The fundamentals have to be changed. The Taoiseach is in a position to do it. Will he do it?

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Collins cannot have it both ways. For the last number of weeks, she was complaining that the Minister for Justice and Equality was impacting on GSOC, which is completely independent. Now, she is telling me that GSOC is not able to do its job. I cannot second-guess what an independent investigative authority will do in regard to any case that comes before it. It is not for the Minister for Justice and Equality, the Government or anybody else to tell it what to do. We have had GSOC in before the committee at length. Last week, the allegation was that the Government or the Minister for Justice and Equality were attempting to do down GSOC in its independence. Now, the Deputy is telling me something entirely different, namely, that it is unable to do its job. The Minister for Justice and Equality has pointed out that the resources and powers in regard to GSOC are going to be improved, because it has been there for a number of years and, clearly, there are inadequacies.

I received the letter from Deputy Luke 'Ming' Flanagan, Deputy Joan Collins, Deputy Mick Wallace and Deputy Clare Daly. They set out about Justice for All and that they handed in documents from 22 members of a group on 17 October last. They said these affidavits documented malpractice and inadequate work by gardaí. I assume these are on behalf of citizens as distinct from members of the force. The range of issues went from quite minor cases of bullying and harassment by gardaí to failure to investigate murder.

Photo of John HalliganJohn Halligan (Waterford, Independent)
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Those are serious issues.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I draw the Deputies' attention to the fact that the murder of person X, the murder of James Goonan, the murder of Shane Tuohey and the attempted murder of Dr. O'Flaherty were all mentioned during the debate on the Garda ombudsman Bill. They say that since that time, nothing has happened and they are bringing to my attention further inadequacies within the Garda ombudsman's office. They say that, as was pointed out during the debate on the Garda ombudsman Bill last July, GSOC is inadequately founded in legislation. That is why the Government asked Deputy Stanton and his committee to take public hearings, including from Deputy Joan Collins and anybody else, about the inadequacies of the legislation-----

Photo of Finian McGrathFinian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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Bring them all in.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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-----and about where it is inadequately grounded in legislation. She can have free rein to go before that committee and point out where and how she considers the legislation can be strengthened.

I point out to the Deputy that the handing in of the 24 submissions to the Department by members of the delegation arose from a Private Members' Bill here in July 2013 on an amendment to the Garda Síochána Act of 2005, during which it was alleged that a number of individuals believed their complaints to GSOC had not been investigated. GSOC is an independent authority. The Minister offered to review the handling of the specific complaints with regard to individuals who believed their matters were not properly investigated or are making allegations of misconduct against members of the Garda. The 24 submissions were acknowledged upon receipt on 17 October 2013 and officials in the Department were given the task of undertaking a detailed examination of the cases to ascertain whether the individuals concerned had availed of the proper mechanisms for consideration of their case.

Some of these complaints go back a number of years, some relate to bodies other than the Garda Síochána and some covered a range of other matters. I can confirm to the Deputy that the examination of the 24 submissions took quite some time to deal with. It is now finalised and it is planned that these replies will issue to each of the 24 individuals in the very near future.

12:30 pm

Photo of Joan CollinsJoan Collins (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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I do not know where the Taoiseach has been for the past period of time but even GSOC has said that it does not have the powers that are needed to investigate independently matters. There has been and will continue to be a culture regarding this issue unless fundamental legislation is introduced to separate the powers of the State and the powers of a body doing its job. We have seen the Fr. Niall Molloy cover up. The journalist who re-investigated it, Gemma O'Doherty, was never even asked to go to that investigation. This is another situation where the person involved has not been brought into an investigative process. Will the Taoiseach establish an independent police authority? This is what is needed. Will such an authority appoint the Garda Commissioner and will the Commissioner be accountable to the authority? These fundamental questions were included in the legislation brought forward by Deputy Wallace last year and need to be addressed. This subject should be discussed.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I am not sure where the Deputy has been for the past while because GSOC is an independent entity set up for the specific purpose of dealing with complaints from members of the public against serving members of the gardaí. The Deputy is now telling me that GSOC does not have the powers to investigate the complaints that were made. That is what I understand her to be saying. That is what GSOC was set up for and that is why it is independent. The confidential recipient process will now end when the legislation is brought in with the opportunity for members of the gardaí who have complaints against serving members to go directly to GSOC.

Deputy Wallace mentioned the Boylan case. GSOC made recommendations and reports in respect of the gardaí arising from that report. Deputy Wallace also mentioned the matter of protocols which the Minister addressed last September when he instructed that new procedures in respect of some of the protocols be brought in. I say to Deputy Collins that we all want this to work very effectively. I advise her and the other Deputies to go to the Staunton committee and point out where this is inadequately founded in legislation and where they think it can be improved. That is what the public engagement process is about and that is why I expect that former Commissioner Brady will be able to go before that committee and address where the legislation is inadequate from his point of view as a former Commission member. The Minister will address that. We want this to work and for GSOC to be seen to have the resources, investigative authority, the legislation to back it up and the protection for whistleblowers. We also want the Garda Síochána, which protects the public from criminal elements, to be seen to be transparent and accountable and for there to be proper oversight there so that everybody can feel comfortable and safe in that knowledge.