Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Yesterday afternoon, members of the family of Sylvia Roche Kelly, her mother, sisters and brother, came to see me at their request. They told me that up to quite recently, they were never told anything about the totality of issues surrounding the murder of their daughter and sister. They were unaware that the person who had murdered Sylvia Roche Kelly had some months earlier savagely abducted and beaten a woman, Mary Lynch, whose name is now in the public domain. He was released on his own bail of €200. While out on that bail, he abducted a young five year-old child at 3.45 a.m. in a Tipperary household but, thankfully, he was intercepted by the child's parents and a brave garda living next door who arrested him. Incredibly, he was given bail again and went on to murder Sylvia Roche Kelly. Her family had one simple message for me which is that they want answers about what happened. They are entitled to very basic and straight answers to the questions they now have, as do the other victims of the very serious assaults and endangerment contained in the dossier I sent to the Taoiseach last week. These families and these victims do not need ten volumes of material or paper; they need simple explanations. That is why I ask the Taoiseach, given the sensitivity of the issues involved, the fact that issues of security are involved and public confidence in the administration of justice, that the only way to deal with this is to initiate a commission of investigation with full High Court powers and compellability and a capacity to deal with such issues effectively and efficiently. I ask the Taoiseach to do that.

I ask the Taoiseach if he will indicate to the House that he agrees that the Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Shatter, should come before the House to withdraw the statement he made that the whistleblower, Maurice McCabe, did not co-operate with the Garda inquiry into penalty points and that he should not have said that. One could put a Jesuitical interpretation on this direction from the Garda Commissioner on 14 December.

We have this spectacle of communications between the Commissioner and the whistleblower simply to facilitate the Minister's stubbornness and his reluctance and refusal-----

Michael Healy-Rae (Kerry South, Independent)
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And his arrogance.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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-----to come before the House and admit he got it wrong in regard to that key point. He could resolve a lot of issues if he had the humility to come before the House and admit he was wrong to do what he did on that occasion.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Everybody can understand how sensitive and important this is for people who are victims of crime, particularly the family of a good woman who was murdered. No more than the victims of any other crime committed throughout the country, people have a right to have trust and confidence in our justice system. Public confidence in An Garda Síochána and in its oversight is rightly an issue of great importance to this House and the Members who serve here.

In recent weeks a number of events have served to weaken and undermine that confidence. I am determined that public confidence in these fundamental institutions be maintained and rebuilt. The best way of achieving that is to establish the truth in all of these matters. To this end, the Government today made three decisions. First, we approved an amendment to the Protected Disclosures Bill 2013, currently before the House, which will enable serving gardaí to bring complaints directly to the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission. Second, we decided that pending the enactment of this legislation, an interim confidential recipient will be appointed to receive complaints from serving gardaí. The Minister for Justice and Equality was mandated to proceed with the required consultation with those who have to be consulted so that an appointment can proceed quickly. Third, we decided to appoint Mr. Seán Guerin SC, an experienced and respected criminal lawyer to conduct an assessment of the various issues and allegations that have been raised by Sergeant Maurice McCabe since 2008.

As Members are aware, Deputy Martin gave me material from Garda McCabe last week which contains very serious allegations against members of the force. I am aware, as is everyone else, that the good sergeant has been in contact with the Garda authorities, GSOC, the Department of Justice and Equality, the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport, the Department of the Taoiseach, the Committee of Public Accounts, other Members of the Oireachtas and the media, as is his right. Much of that correspondence related to the penalty points issue which was the subject of the report by Garda Assistant Commissioner O'Mahony that was published last year.

The issues raised in the material given to me by Deputy Martin do not relate to penalty points. Most of the incidents mentioned have now been publicised in the media, whether in newspaper reports or on television. They include a number of very serious allegations against people, including serving members of the Garda Síochána, which I am not in position either to investigate or verify. Many of these allegations have been the subject of investigation by senior gardaí, the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission and-or the Director of Public Prosecutions. In some cases, people have been tried and convicted. In addition, we must all be mindful that there are currently at least two court cases ongoing which relate directly to these issues. In dealing with these matters, therefore, it is important to remember that these were not victimless crimes. They have been very painful for victims and families, as alluded to by Deputy Martin. That is why I regard the issues as being very serious and I have considered them carefully.

However, I am not in a position to verify the veracity of or investigate the claims. Nor would it be feasible or appropriate for me to seek to investigate whether and how these matters were dealt with by the Garda authorities, GSOC and the DPP, all of whom are, quite properly, independent in the conduct of their responsibilities. I am, however, acutely conscious that the scale of the public discussion around these matters could have implications for confidence in the administration of justice in our country. There is a need to address these concerns and put in place a process that can do so quickly and effectively. For that reason, the Government has asked an independent and objective legal expert, Mr. Seán Guerin SC, to examine and assess all the relevant papers and recommend what further action might be taken. If he recommends that a commission of investigation should be established, it will be done. The terms of reference for this work are currently being finalised. The report, which we hope will be completed before the Easter recess, will be laid before the Oireachtas by me and published. I believe this is a prudent way to proceed in view of all of the comments, allegations and documents that surround these matters.

In addition, the Government agreed last week that recent events have now given rise to a clear need to review the operation of the oversight structure and the relevant legislation. That is why the proposed hearings by the Oireachtas justice committee into these matters are crucial. I hope they can commence as soon as possible. Mr. Justice Cooke may also make recommendations in that regard, as may Mr. Guerin. My intention is that the Government will bring forward proposals for the reform of the current Garda oversight and complaints systems by the summer. It is my clear view that the current system is not working as effectively as our citizens and our police force deserve and our democracy requires. It must be modernised and reformed.

Tomorrow, I intend to have statements in the House all day, except for Leaders' Questions, to be led off by the Minister for Justice and Equality. The Minister is quite happy to attend and will finish up those statements with a question and answer session for any Members of the House who wish to ask him questions.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Taoiseach for his reply. Of course I accept that he is not in a position, in any shape or form, to arbitrate on or test the veracity of the very serious material in the dossier he has. However, that material was with the Minister two years ago and was supplied to the confidential recipient over two years ago. The Taoiseach knows, having read it, that the material jumps out at the reader. It is not satisfactory to say that because a person was convicted of murder in one instance, this is the end of the matter. That misses the point entirely, as the Taoiseach knows.

The senior counsel the Taoiseach is appointing will not have a statutory basis for his investigation, will not have powers of compellability and so on. The only vehicle that can enable the Government or the Oireachtas to do that is a commission of investigation under the Commissions of Investigation Act 2004. That legislation has proven to have the capacity to investigate these matters, which are very serious and which, in fairness, the Taoiseach has acknowledged as being very serious. It is the only vehicle to do it effectively, efficiently and with confidence. For the victims and the families of the victims - at least the family I met - their big fear simply is that this will all be covered up again. I am just making the point that from a layperson's perspective, that is how they look at the world. That is how they look at desktop reviews and all the palaver and general language around all of that. Unfortunately, that is the conclusion they will be afraid of.

I noted from the Taoiseach's reply that he has not ruled out a commission of investigation. I would have been happier if the Government had appointed the senior counsel and given him the task of scoping out the basis for a commission of investigation. That would be a stronger position and one that could quite readily be done. The Taoiseach would have my support if the role and function of the senior counsel is to scope out the basis for the initiation of a commission of investigation and to meet the key people concerned and engage with them.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I do not think there is any difference of opinion between the Deputy and me or anybody else in the House about what we want to do here. We need to have the truth of these matters. We need to have confidence, credibility and integrity both in the Garda Síochána in the conduct of its affairs on behalf of the people of the nation and also in respect of GSOC. The Deputy gave me this documentation just last week and we now have a response to it as to what we intend to do. I am not in a position to have the documentation from the DPP or GSOC. These bodies are completely independent of this House. The Garda Síochána, on the directions of the Commissioner, investigated quite a number of the allegations that were made, but the report I have here in respect of assaults and the conduct of gardaí in that is directly contradictory to those findings. Who am I to believe here?

We are working in the interests of having answers for people so that clarity is brought to this. That is why Mr. Guerin SC, who is an experienced criminal lawyer, will assess the investigative methods that were carried out on the papers that are available to him. I expect that everybody will co-operate with this, including the Garda, the DPP where relevant, GSOC, the confidential recipient and the Department of Justice and Equality.

What I have in mind is that the SC, with a criminal lawyer's practice, will look at that process, make recommendations and present a report to me as Taoiseach. I will bring the report before the Oireachtas and have it debated publicly. Clearly, if he recommends that further work is required here, in terms of an investigation, that shall be done. On a number of occasions in the past, a scoping exercise of merit was carried out and this justified the setting up of investigations. As the Deputy is well aware, that is what happened in the case of the scoping exercise that led to the commission of inquiry in the Morris tribunal in Donegal many years ago.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The decision had been made to have one.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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What will happen now is that the SC will start work immediately.

Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Tell that to the Minister for Justice and Equality.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Hopefully - there is a lot of paper here - he can report to me before Easter and we can decide then on the best thing to do here. As I have said, GSOC and the DPP are utterly independent of this House. Investigations into this matter of public interest have taken place. As the Deputy is aware, some of these allegations have been investigated by the Garda Commissioner, by GSOC in part or in full, or by the DPP. That work has been done. It is now necessary, in the interests of truth and credibility, to have the truth established here. The Deputy started off by asking a question about the family of a good woman who was murdered. I feel for that as well. Clearly every person in the House, irrespective of who they represent, understands that we need clarity, integrity and credibility. I hope this can lead to that. As I have said, the Minister, Deputy Shatter, received documentation from the whistleblower on 23 January and responded on 24 January. He received a very long piece of correspondence from the Garda Commissioner about the investigations that had taken place with regard to the matters mentioned in that letter. The Minister, Deputy Shatter, will deal with that tomorrow morning when he opens the statements here.

Michael Healy-Rae (Kerry South, Independent)
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He sat on it for two years.

Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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We learn about these things through the media. It is a fait accompli. The SC is in place. He is going to report to the Taoiseach. The rest of us will sit and listen as we get it from RTE or from elsewhere. We should be able to come in here and discuss it. The Government should listen to what we have to say before it comes to a decision. There is a credible and acceptable way of bringing this chaotic episode to a conclusion. That would have involved the establishment of an independent inquiry as provided for under the Commissions of Investigations Act 2004. That would have taken it out of the political brouhaha that has been going on for some time.

As the Taoiseach knows, these are profoundly serious issues. A person has been killed and others have been assaulted. Confidence in the administration of An Garda Síochána and of justice is being eroded. Here is the nub of it. The Taoiseach received this report last week. He has now invited this SC in to tell him what he should do. The Minister has had it for two years. Sergeant McCabe's allegations go back to 2008.

Arthur Spring (Kerry North-West Limerick, Labour)
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Is that Jerry McCabe?

Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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What has the Minister done? Has the Taoiseach asked the Minister what he has done about this in the two years he has had it? This reminds me a wee bit of the case of Pat Finucane, about which we are concerned. I have to stress I am not drawing like with like. When it came to the point at which Pat Finucane's case should have been dealt with, the British Government brought in Judge Cory. It became a delaying tactic. The issue is still not resolved. I appeal to the Taoiseach respectfully to review the decision he has taken. I suggest that he should give this SC the power under the Commissions of Investigations Act 2004, or else listen to what is being said in here and take this matter out of the political realm by going straight into an independent inquiry under the 2004 Act. That would take the Taoiseach out of it. He has said that the SC will report back to him. He has read the dossier, so why not do what he is able to do as an acceptable way of bringing this to a conclusion?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I share the Deputy's view in respect of the late Pat Finucane. I will make the case again when I go to London in the near future. I decided to make a proposition to the Government this morning. The Government agreed with that proposition, which was that a senior counsel with criminal law experience should be appointed to assess the investigative methods and processes that were followed by a number of agencies here. As I said to Deputy Martin, the Minister, Deputy Shatter, acted immediately when he received this information in 2012. He read it and he responded immediately through his Secretary General to the Garda Commissioner.

Michael Healy-Rae (Kerry South, Independent)
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He did not tell the Taoiseach about it.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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As I said to Deputy Martin, the point is that 12 distinct allegations were made in respect of a superintendent. The Secretary General sought a report, which was received four days later. A reply was received by the end of January of last year. In that reply, which was quite extensive, the Garda Commissioner outlined how 11 of the 12 allegations had already been made through the confidential recipient system and had been thoroughly investigated in an investigation headed by an assistant Garda commissioner and a chief superintendent. The report of that investigation, together with all the supporting documentation, was presented in ten volume files to the DPP. After considering the material, the DPP directed that no prosecution should be pursued, on the basis that no criminality was disclosed against any member. That is the decision of the DPP's office, which is completely independent of the Oireachtas.

When I received this material from Deputy Martin, I decided that I was not in a position to make a judgment on it. First, it would be inappropriate for me to have that material. Second, I do not have the authority to demand it. We have asked for an effective process to be put in place to deal with this. I want to see this resolved. I want to see that everybody understands exactly what happened and that the truth be known. We have got a competent person with criminal law experience to go through all of these papers and report back here. I chose that it be so because Deputy Martin gave me the material. I did not show that material to the Tánaiste. I did not show it to anybody else in the Cabinet. I did not send it to the Department of Justice and Equality. I did not send it anywhere else.

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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They had it.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I have read comments about elements of it in the media. If the Minister for Justice and Equality was presenting it, Deputy Adams might have a different view. I am telling the Deputy that as Taoiseach, I have asked for the report to come back to me before Easter. The day I get it, it will be laid before the Oireachtas and it will be debated here in full session of the House.

Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I welcome the fact that the Taoiseach will put it before the Dáil. I think that is a good thing. Will the SC meet Sergeant Maurice McCabe?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Yes.

Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Will he meet the other whistleblowers? This is a question of the way business is done in this State. It predates this Government. There is a cosy relationship between the political elites and those who are at the top of State agencies, the Civil Service and big businesses. We have seen so many examples of that recently. People are sick of it. They listened to what the Taoiseach and the Labour Party said during the general election campaign about the need for a new way of doing these things. This is the old way of doing them.

What happened over GSOC? There was to be a review. What is happening now? A senior counsel is being brought in to do a review. A process is provided for under the Commissions of Investigations Act 2004, which gives the Taoiseach this authority. I am not asking him to make a judgment - I understand that is not within his authority. I understand the separation of these different agencies and so on. There is a process which takes it out of politics. That is the Commissions of Investigations Act 2004. That is where it should have gone. Perhaps we will go there if that becomes the recommendation, but why wait when people are hurting? The whole political and public narrative for the last number of weeks has been totally monopolised by this issue, so why not free it up? Why not do the big thing and let that investigation proceed as it is to under the 2004 Act?

It was put in place to deal with issues such as those the Taoiseach has just articulated.

Let us play catch-up with the North on some of these issues. It is not acceptable for a Garda Commissioner to be accountable to any politician. There should be an independent Garda authority. I welcome that the Protected Disclosures Bill is to be changed. Sinn Féin, through Deputy Mac Lochlainn, has argued for that. We are now giving gardaí the right to go to the Ombudsman, which is a very basic and modest step. However, there is no protection for whistleblowers, and the very person who should have protected the whistleblower, the Minister for Justice and Equality, failed to do that. I hope this goes well, particularly for the families who have been hurt, and we will certainly give it a fair wind.

I return to what I asked in my original question. The Taoiseach had this for less than a week and he moved to take this action. The Minister had it for two years. The allegations have been about since 2008 in the various agencies to which this garda was entitled go. This is a step and it is positive enough, but it is too small a step and falls short of what the public wants if confidence is to be restored.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Given the importance of this, I have been very careful not to deviate from the fundamental issues, namely, to restore integrity and credibility in An Garda Síochána in its competence, professionalism and in how it interacts with the people, and the independence and oversight responsibilities of GSOC. However, it is a new way of dealing with an old structure.

There have been four Ministers for Justice and Equality since 2007: Mr. McDowell, the late Mr. Lenihan, Mr. Ahern and now the Minister, Deputy Shatter. This covers that span. Through the investigation by the Garda Commissioner and through the investigation by the Director of Public Prosecutions, 11 of the 12 allegations were found to be groundless. I have a different version here from Sergeant McCabe. We are being asked to ascertain the truth of the matter.

The DPP and GSOC are independent entities with which the Minister, Deputy Shatter, is not satisfied and has not been satisfied for a couple of years because his view was that we should not have a confidential recipient process because it has not worked effectively. That is why today the Government approved an amendment to the Protected Disclosures Bill to provide for gardaí to go to GSOC directly and not have an office of confidential recipient, although under the legislation we have to appoint an interim confidential recipient in the meantime.

We need to take all the paperwork and put some coherence on it because we could all be talking and arguing for the next two years without having a focus on many of the allegations that may arise. It is prudent and a good proposition to appoint someone with experience in criminal law to take all this paperwork, put it into a coherent fashion and make recommendations on the assessment of the investigative methods that were followed. If that means having a commission of investigation, that is what will happen. When this comes back to me in my position as Taoiseach, I will lay it before the Houses of the Oireachtas and we will have a public debate on that.

The issue of protection is clearly an issue. The Oireachtas Joint Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality is looking at the effectiveness and standards that apply in the 2005 Garda Síochána Act and Mr. Justice Cooke may make some recommendations in that regard also. I have listened to people of stature, some of whom have served on GSOC, making points about its inadequacies. They will have the opportunity to make their contributions in public session before the Oireachtas committee. I believe that is a good engagement with civic society in the interest of having that integrity of our police force and the independent oversight body put in place.

Séamus Healy (Tipperary South, Workers and Unemployed Action Group)
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There is a social and affordable housing crisis. More than 100,000 families are languishing on local authority housing waiting lists. These families cannot afford to buy or build their own homes and cannot access mortgages. In addition, because the Government has slashed the income limits to qualify for local authority housing, thousands of other families cannot get on those lists, cannot access mortgages and are condemned to private rented accommodation for the rest of their lives.

Social and affordable house building by local authorities and voluntary housing agencies is almost non-existent. The local authority house building budget was decimated by the Government, down from €367 million in 2010 to €65 million in 2013. Similarly, the voluntary sector budget was reduced from €70 million in 2012 to €55 million in 2013. The local authority social and affordable house building programme has been privatised by the Government, by bailing out landlords and developers, by shoving €500 million of public money into their deep pockets through the payment of rent supplement each year and paying their mortgages over and over again through rental accommodation and leasing schemes.

The ESRI has advised that we need to treble the house building programme. We have read that the Government has a draft housing plan. However, based on press reports, it relies solely on financial incentives for developers to build. It also apparently proposes to remove the requirements for builders to provide a proportion of social and affordable housing in each development.

With 100,000 families on local authority housing waiting lists and thousands more who cannot get on those lists, will the Taoiseach ensure direct investment in local authority and voluntary housing agency house building? Are there any proposals in this plan, which the Government is apparently preparing, for such investment?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy has raised a matter of very considerable concern to people. Clearly he and everybody else is aware that during the so-called boom years we built nearly 100,000 housing units when we had a requirement for perhaps 25,000 or 30,000. We are now building 6,500 to 8,000 when we need 25,000 to 30,000. Of course these cannot be provided overnight. I am well aware of the pressure, particularly in city areas on the need for detached housing for families, many of whom are now caught in apartments or rented accommodation that is not suitable.

Considerable work is going on here. The Minister, Deputy Burton, and the Minister of State, Deputy Jan O'Sullivan, have initiated a pilot project in Limerick for the housing assistance payments scheme, which will be of interest to local authorities. That should be in legislation by early summer. On Thursday we will have a meeting of the Cabinet dealing with the construction sector in general, which will be of interest to the Deputy and others. We need to get the construction sector to contribute far more to the economy than it is. It used to be at 24% or 25% and is now down to 6% or 7%, which is much too low.

Clearly Deputies are aware of the pressure on local authorities for social housing. There is a programme in place for this year for the recommencement of local authority housing. There is to be a debate on housing in the Dáil in the next two to three weeks and the Deputy will have his opportunity to make a longer contribution to that with his many suggestions. The Government is conscious of the issue and it will be a feature of what we will discuss at Thursday's Cabinet meeting.

Séamus Healy (Tipperary South, Workers and Unemployed Action Group)
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Based on the Taoiseach's reply, it is clear the Government's draft plan is regressive as regards social housing. Obviously it will cater only for those who can afford to buy these houses or get mortgages for them.

It will not cater for local authority housing applicants or those who have failed to get on the housing lists because the Government has reduced the income limits significantly. The issue I raise was highlighted today by a family who are protesting outside the office of the Minister for Social Protection, Deputy Burton, because of the rent caps that are in place by the Government. That family are constituents of the Minister. This is an urgent matter. It is an emergency situation for the 100,000 families who are on these waiting lists and for those who cannot get on the lists. There must be a huge increase in investment in social housing. There is a real housing emergency and the Government is relying on a wing and a prayer of private developers and the market which failed us in the past.

I again ask the Taoiseach whether he will significantly increase the income limits for local authority housing. The Government has slashed them by half whereby families on less than €25,000 per annum cannot get on those lists. Will the Taoiseach immediately commence a local authority and voluntary agency house building programme to ensure those 100,000 families and the others who cannot get on that list have proper housing?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I would be the first to say that the public housing situation is not what it should be. The Minister for Finance has already made it clear that NAMA is offering 4,000 units that are available for housing.

Séamus Healy (Tipperary South, Workers and Unemployed Action Group)
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There are 100,000 families on housing lists.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Admittedly some of them may not be in the proper locations and some of them may not be committed but it is an offer of 4,000 units.

The social and public housing programme is clearly too low and it is not meeting the demand we have. When Ireland was building 100,000 houses when 30,000 were needed, clearly the private sector area was very expensive, to put it mildly. The housing assistance payments scheme, which will be of interest to local authorities, will be tested in a number of pilot areas beginning in Limerick and should be law by the summer. The question of having more public housing capacity available and the question of income limits will all form part of the discussions and proposals that come from Members on the housing debate-----

Séamus Healy (Tipperary South, Workers and Unemployed Action Group)
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Will the Taoiseach increase the income limits?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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-----and will be part of the Government's discussions on stimulating the construction sector in the economy generally this week.