Dáil debates

Thursday, 13 February 2014

11:55 am

Photo of Niall CollinsNiall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
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Since last Sunday, the Government has engaged in a co-ordinated strategy that has served to undermine the Office of the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission. On Monday, the Taoiseach took to the media and demanded that the GSOC level with the Minister for Justice and Equality. He further chose to repeatedly misquote section 80 of the Garda Síochána Act 2005 and misinform members of the public in respect of the Act. All of this had the effect of placing significant public pressure on the GSOC, which was then publicly forced into a position in which it had to express regret to the Minister and publicly on national television. This was very damaging to the independent office of the GSOC. One would not expect the same to be asked of the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions, any other Ombudsman or a judge who has been independently appointed by the President.

On Tuesday evening, we had statements in the House on the issue and the Joint Committee on Public Service Oversight and Petitions met yesterday for a further discussion of the matter. Speaking on Tuesday evening, the Minister for Justice and Equality stated that "no definitive evidence of unauthorised technical or electronic surveillance was found". It was, he said, "unfortunate that An Garda Síochána has found itself, during the last 48 hours, the subject of what appears to be completely baseless innuendo". The Minister also stated that "no information has been furnished to me by the GSOC suggesting that An Garda Síochána was involved in any way in what gave rise to the concerns which arose in the GSOC about its security". In his opening statement to yesterday's meeting of the Joint Committee on Public Service Oversight and Petitions, the chairman of the GSOC, Mr. Simon O'Brien, stated that on 8 October 2013 the commission invoked section 102(4) of the Garda Síochána Act 2005 and commenced a public interest investigation. The investigation was launched on the basis that the acting director of investigations was of the opinion that the threshold of a threat had been met and the commission commenced an investigation into the Garda Síochána. When I pointedly asked the Mr. O'Brien yesterday if he had informed the Minister of this fact when he briefed him he stated that he had done so. The Minister did not make Deputies aware of this matter in his statement to the Dáil on Tuesday. There is, therefore, a significant divergence of opinion in this regard.

Does the Tánaiste believe the Taoiseach was correct in demanding publicly that the GSOC level with the Minister? Was the commission right to apologise to the Minister? Has the independence of the GSOC been damaged as a consequence of this apology? Did the Minister for Justice and Equality withhold from the Dáil on Tuesday information he had received from Mr. Simon O'Brien? Why is the Government not running with the calls made by the Fianna Fáil Party and other Opposition parties for an independent inquiry into this matter?

Photo of Eamon GilmoreEamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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I welcome the fact that the chairperson of the GSOC was before the Joint Committee on Public Service Oversight and Petitions yesterday to answer questions. I also welcome the fact that the committee intends to continue to have this issue examined. I understand it is inviting the Minister for Justice and Equality to attend-----

Photo of Michael Healy-RaeMichael Healy-Rae (Kerry South, Independent)
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He will not like that.

Photo of Eamon GilmoreEamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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-----and he will be very happy to do so.

I reject absolutely the suggestion made by Deputy Collins that there is some kind of co-ordinated strategy by the Government to undermine - I am not sure of the phrase he used - the GSOC. The Government entirely respects and values the independence of the commission. The GSOC was set up, after many years in which a body of this nature had been called for, to independently examine any questions of misconduct on the part of some gardaí. It does a very good job, it acts independently and every Member of the House, from whatever side, should and does respect its independence. This independence needs to be underpinned and affirmed in the current public controversy.

In respect of the Deputy's specific questions, he asked if the GSOC should have reported the issue to the Minister for Justice and Equality. The commission accepts that it should have done so. The Deputy also asked if I believed the independence of the GSOC had been damaged. I do not believe it has been damaged. If anything, what we have seen in the past couple of days is the commission asserting its independence, which is a good thing. I support the GSOC in asserting its independence.

I do not accept that the Minister withheld information from the Dáil. The information he gave the House was based on the briefing he was given by the GSOC.

Photo of Michael Healy-RaeMichael Healy-Rae (Kerry South, Independent)
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He got it wrong.

Photo of Eamon GilmoreEamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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I understand the Minister has been asked to appear before the Joint Committee on Public Service Oversight and Petitions. He is willing to attend a meeting of the committee and answer whatever questions are put to him.

Photo of Niall CollinsNiall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
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It is difficult to figure out what the Labour Party stands for. The Tánaiste is continuing the narrative that the Government has been peddling all week. The message is that there is nothing to see here and we should move along. I asked the Tánaiste whether he was concerned that the Taoiseach publicly demanded of an independent office that it level with a Minister. Is he not concerned about the image that is projected when an independent ombudsman is brought into a Department and forced to express regret by way of an apology? Would he expect this to occur in the case of the Director of Public Prosecutions or any other independent office? Should the independence of the office of the GSOC not be respected?

Yesterday, I asked the chairman of the GSOC, Mr. O'Connor, if he had specifically informed the Minister for Justice and Equality that the commission had opened an investigation and inquiry into An Garda Síochána. He confirmed to me that he had done so in the briefing provided to the Minister on Monday. The Minister came to the House on Tuesday to spin the story in the opposite direction by stating there was nothing to it whereas completely contradictory evidence was presented to the joint committee yesterday. It is a disgrace that the Minister misinformed the Dáil as to the content of the information available to him. The Tánaiste is happy to continue to parrot the Minister's line. As the leader of the Labour Party, what does he stand for? Does he stand for upholding and promoting the independence of the GSOC?

This issue has knock-on consequences. As I stated, the Director of Public Prosecutions is not hauled before a Minister to explain the reason for not proceeding with a prosecution in the vilest of rape cases or where other grievous crimes have been reported. This is not good enough.

The Tánaiste did not answer my question on my party's call to establish an independent panel of experts headed by a High Court judge to examine this issue. The reason this issue is so serious is that the Garda Síochána and the GSOC are two pillars of the justice system that go to the heart of democracy. The only message we have heard from the Taoiseach and Minister for Justice and Equality since Sunday and today from the Tánaiste is that there is nothing to see here and we should move along. The body at the centre of this issue presented a different version of events to the Joint Committee on Public Service Oversight and Petitions yesterday.

Photo of Paul KehoePaul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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It did not.

Photo of Niall CollinsNiall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
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The committee heard exactly the opposite of what the Government has been saying all week.

(Interruptions).

Photo of Niall CollinsNiall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
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It is not good enough. What does the Tánaiste stand for, if not for the independence of the ombudsman and supporting the individuals in question who were appointed by the President on the nomination of the Government? There is a real problem at the heart of government which is interfering with this independence by engaging in a strategy that has been co-ordinated.

Photo of Joe CostelloJoe Costello (Dublin Central, Labour)
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Rubbish.

Photo of Eamon GilmoreEamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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I stand first for public confidence in the Garda Síochána, which does a very good job for the people of this country.

12:05 pm

Photo of Bernard DurkanBernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Hear, hear.

Photo of Eamon GilmoreEamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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Second, I stand for an independent Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission-----

Photo of Robert TroyRobert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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Support it then.

Photo of Niall CollinsNiall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
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The Government is not supporting it.

Photo of Eamon GilmoreEamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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-----to examine allegations of any misconduct on the part of the Garda Síochána. It is important there is public confidence in the GSOC. What I do not stand is the kind of clap-trap which Deputy Collins has just come out with.

Deputies:

Hear, hear.

Photo of Michael Healy-RaeMichael Healy-Rae (Kerry South, Independent)
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It is the truth.

Photo of Eamon GilmoreEamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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Deputy Collins is now seeking to politicise what-----

Photo of Niall CollinsNiall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
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The Government has been undermining GSOC all week. The Tánaiste should not now be trying to turn it around.

Photo of Robert TroyRobert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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The Government has been berating GSOC all week.

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Collins you have had your say.

Photo of Eamon GilmoreEamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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Fianna Fáil sees this an opportunity to have a go at the Minister for Justice and Equality and the Government. That is bad politics, Deputy Collins.

Photo of Niall CollinsNiall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
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No, it is not.

Photo of Eamon GilmoreEamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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It is important public confidence in An Garda Síochána is restored. We have an independent Ombudsman commission. It is important we all respect that independence of the-----

Photo of Niall CollinsNiall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
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The Government did not show it any respect this week.

Photo of Eamon GilmoreEamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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That is untrue.

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Sorry, speak through the Chair please.

Photo of Robert TroyRobert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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The Government berated GSOC in public.

Photo of Eamon GilmoreEamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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The Government respects the independence of the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission. It is important that is underpinned and reinforced. As for the issue of whether or not the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission should have reported to the Minister for Justice and Equality about the issues in respect of which its investigation was conducted, the commission has itself acknowledged that it should have reported that issue to the Minister for Justice and Equality before he read about in a Sunday newspaper.

Photo of Bernard DurkanBernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Hear, hear.

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Following the evidence of the chairman of GSOC to the Joint Committee on Public Service Oversight and Petitions yesterday it has become evident that the Government has sought to mislead citizens about the bugging controversy. Let us be clear. To avoid surveillance, members of a Government oversight agency were forced to meet in cafés rather than hold meetings in their offices and to stop using their mobile phones. This is an outrageous situation. The Government response has been equally outrageous. The Taoiseach and Minister for Justice and Equality came into this Chamber and made statements on the record that have been flatly contradicted by the chairman of GSOC. It is clear that the Government tried to shut down the demand for transparency surrounding the bugging scandal at GSOC. According to the Taoiseach and Minister, Deputy Shatter, there was no evidence of bugging. They told us that claims of bugging were baseless innuendo, that the sweep of the GSOC office last year was routine and was prompted by no specific concern. The Taoiseach told the Dáil that we could now put this matter behind us - nothing to see here.

The Ombudsman believes, and has evidence to support his belief, that there was a credible threat to the security of the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission. We now know that the security sweep of the GSOC office was sparked by heightened concerns of breaches of confidentiality last May. We also know that following assessment of the threats identified in the sweep in September a public interest investigation was ordered as the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission believed authorised or unauthorised elements of the Garda Síochána may have been involved in this surveillance. Did the Minister know of this?

The chairman has now also confirmed that the third threat came from government level technology. The Minister for Justice and Equality was briefed on all of this but the account he chose to give to the Dáil on Tuesday is at odds with that outlined by the chairman of GSOC yesterday. The Minister for Justice and Equality, it appears, has sought to muddy the waters and this is unacceptable. Will the Tánaiste step up and move speedily to establish an independent inquiry?

Photo of Eamon GilmoreEamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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It is important that this issue is fully explored. For this reason, I support the process under way by the Joint Committee on Public Service Oversight and Petitions. As I understand it, that committee, on the conclusion of yesterday's meeting with the chairman of the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission, decided to do two things. First, to request the full report presented to the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission - it is a matter for the commission, which is independent, whether or not to provide that report to the committee - and, second to invite the Minister for Justice and Equality to appear before it to answer whatever questions it wishes to put him on the issue. The Minister is willing to do that.

In the first instance, we should allow that committee to pursue the line of inquiry in which it is engaged and to do the job it has to do. As in the case of every other public body, the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission appears before Oireachtas committees as appropriate to answer for its stewardship. That is what is being done in this regard. I believe that is the process that should be followed. We should allow that process to continue and not pre-empt it. We all regard as serious the possibility of the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission being subject to any kind of surveillance or leaking of confidential information into the public domain. The chairman of GSOC has set out the approach taken by the commission to date. As I said, the commission operates independently and we should all respect that. We should allow the process now under way to continue and to establish whatever information needs to be established.

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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The Tánaiste is passing the buck, which is not all that surprising. Yesterday, it took a considerable period to have the Taoiseach admit that he had misquoted the Garda Síochána Act 2005. His first reaction when all of this came to public attention was to point the finger at the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission and apportion blame there. That is what the Taoiseach did. He now accepts that he misquoted the legislation. Does the Tánaiste accept that it was utterly inappropriate for the Taoiseach in the first instance to point the finger at the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission, which independent body the Tánaiste now lauds?

The record will reflect that the Minister, Deputy Shatter, was incomplete in his account of this matter to the Dáil. The Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission did trigger a public interest investigation because it believed there may have been Garda Síochána involvement in surveillance of its offices. I am sure the Tánaiste grasps the full seriousness of this. Why, when the Minister, Deputy Shatter, was aware of this fact did he deliberately omit it from his statement to the Dáil? As the Tánaiste is aware, the Minister, Deputy Shatter, has form on these matters. When two garda whistleblowers stepped forward recently he was quick off the blocks to rubbish them. This controversy emerges and he is out of the traps to rubbish the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission. That is his style.

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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A question please.

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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It appears to me now that is the style of this Government. The Government has now placed a question mark over its ability to oversee impartial, accountable policing in this State. This is the gravest disservice which the Government can do to An Garda Síochána. Can the Tánaiste confirm that no agency of this State was authorised to put GSOC under surveillance? Can he categorically state that no arm of this State was authorised to put the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission under surveillance? Can the Tánaiste answer that question? Notwithstanding the investigation by the committee, can he confirm the establishment of the independent inquiry which these matters given their gravity require?

Photo of Paudie CoffeyPaudie Coffey (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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Deputy McDonald is one to talk about surveillance.

Photo of Eamon GilmoreEamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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The serious issue here is the possibility that an independent body, whose job it is to investigate complaints or allegations of misconduct against the Garda Síochána, might have been under surveillance and that confidentiality in respect of information of which it is seized has been breached.

I think that is the serious issue here. The GSOC brought in experts to do the sweep of its offices. It did a follow-up investigation following on from that. The chairperson of the commission has brought that information before the Oireachtas committee and the Oireachtas committee is going to have further investigations and will ask the Minister for Justice and Equality about issues arising from that. I believe that is the right course of action to take because the critical issue is that the independence of the commission is maintained and upheld and that there is public confidence in the Garda. I appreciate that members of the Opposition parties want to politicise that in some way and find a way in which-----

12:15 pm

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Absolutely not.

Photo of Niall CollinsNiall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
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We want answers.

Photo of Eamon GilmoreEamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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They figure this is a way in which they can put the Minister for Justice and Equality and the Government in the dock and that it is another issue with which to have a thump at the Minister, Deputy Shatter, and the Government. The Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Shatter, has been a long advocate of the establishment of an independent Garda ombudsman commission. He and the Government fully respect that and there is no issue or doubt about it. We have heard what the chairman of the GSOC has had to say.

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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It did not tally with what the Minister had to say.

Photo of Eamon GilmoreEamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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No. That is not the case.

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Sorry, we are over time. I am calling Deputy Collins now.

Photo of Pearse DohertyPearse Doherty (Donegal South West, Sinn Fein)
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The Tánaiste should answer the question.

Photo of Eamon GilmoreEamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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I have answered the question.

Photo of Pearse DohertyPearse Doherty (Donegal South West, Sinn Fein)
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The answer is "Yes" or "No".

Photo of Ray ButlerRay Butler (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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The gate is broken and the bull is out.

Photo of Eamon GilmoreEamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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The question Deputy McDonald asked was whether I was satisfied that no organ of the State put the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission under surveillance. Yes, I am.

(Interruptions).

Photo of Joan CollinsJoan Collins (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Last week I asked the Tánaiste a specific question in respect of apprentices being forced to pay college fees. The Tánaiste's reply was bordering on dishonesty. The specific question I asked the Tánaiste was whether the Minister for Education and Skills would meet representatives from the Technical Engineering and Electrical Union, the union representing these workers. They are not students, they are workers. The Tánaiste avoided that question. The Tánaiste said he would meet the Union of Students in Ireland, but that is not the body representing these workers. I am asking the question again. Will the Tánaiste ensure that a meeting is organised between the Minister for Education and Skills, the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation and the TEEU, the union representing workers who have been affected by the cuts in their fees?

This is a serious issue for these 7,500 apprentices. This is part of their training and education, something the Tánaiste should be supporting as a Minister. They are not workers who earn €750 per week. Far from it, most of them are on the minimum wage or less. They do not get paid during the college term since they are on a FÁS trainee allowance during that period and therefore they cannot afford to pay these fees. Will the Tánaiste organise a meeting with the TEEU effectively and as quickly as possible to discuss seriously the reinstating of these college fees, pending the major question he raised last week about the Minister for Education and Skills looking down the road at apprentices being broadened out and so on?

Photo of Eamon GilmoreEamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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I recall the question Deputy Collins asked me last week. She asked me if the Minister for Education and Skills would meet representatives of the TEEU and the USI. The Minister was sitting beside me. He told me he had planned to meet the USI and I gave Deputy Collins that answer last week. It is a little unfair for Deputy Collins to twist that into a refusal to meet the TEEU. I do not run the diary of the Minister for Education and Skills. If representatives from the TEEU want to meet the Minister for Education and Skills I imagine they are perfectly capable of arranging a meeting with him.

This Government has a long-standing policy of meeting trade unions, student unions and bodies that represent people who have difficulties and grievances. I do not expect there will be any difficulty in a meeting being arranged with the Minister for Education and Skills. There is no necessity for Deputy Collins to elevate it into some kind of refusal on the part of the Minister for Education and Skills to meet them.

Photo of Joan CollinsJoan Collins (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Up to last Thursday the TEEU had requested a meeting with the Minister and had heard no reply. I raised the matter last week and the Minister for Education and Skills said he would meet the Union of Students in Ireland, a body not representing these workers. A week has gone by. I spoke to representatives of the union some 15 minutes ago to confirm that the Minister had not contacted them at their request. He still has not replied to them. If the Tánaiste stands up for these workers' rights and conditions, then would he please arrange for the Minister for Education and Skills to meet the union representing these workers? It is a matter of "Yes" or "No". Will the Tánaiste consider reinstating the fees? Then the union will know where it stands in respect of this Government.

Photo of Eamon GilmoreEamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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I do not see that there is an issue here.

Photo of Joan CollinsJoan Collins (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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There is an issue.

Photo of Eamon GilmoreEamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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If the TEEU wants to meet the Minister for Education and Skills, it requests a meeting with the Minister and I imagine it can be arranged. If the Union of Students in Ireland wants to meet the Minister for Education and Skills about the issue, similarly, it will ask the Minister about the arranging of that meeting. No Minister in this Government is refusing to meet representative bodies on issues that are of concern to them. I do not see that there is any difficulty whatever in a meeting being arranged with the Minister for Education and Skills. I suggest that if there is an issue then it should be pursued directly with the Minister for Education and Skills.