Clare Daly (Dublin North, Socialist Party)
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3. To ask the Minister for Defence if he will stop the eviction process which has been initiated against some former members of the Defence Forces who reside in family quarters in the Curragh Camp and instead engage in a dialogue with these families and members of PDFORrA to reach an agreed settlement in relation to these accommodation units. [5849/14]

Clare Daly (Dublin North, Socialist Party)
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The Minister and I have discussed on a number of occasions the issue of former members of the Defence Forces being evicted from their homes in the Curragh Camp. I know he has called them overholders and used anachronisms, but they are 29 families and individuals, a number of whom left their homes early this morning to attend this discussion and are present in the Visitors Gallery. They are not here to cause the Minister embarrassment or trouble but literally to plead with him to call off the evictions and sit down with them to agree a solution. We are not being prescriptive about what that solution should be, but the current method is certainly not desirable for anybody.

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy and I addressed this issue recently on the last occasion defence questions were taken. I will give some information that I previously gave to the House.

In February 1997 the then Minister for Defence set out the policy on married quarters on the basis that they were largely an anachronism and that they should be discontinued in a managed and orderly way. My Department has since discontinued the practice of providing such accommodation. In addition, given the age of the housing stock, it has been found that over time the properties require a significant and disproportionate investment in order to ensure compliance with regulations for rental properties. In recent years much of the stock has become unsuitable for habitation and has had to be taken out of use. Consequently, there has been a sharp decline in the number of married quarters in use, with only 26 serving personnel occupying married quarters in the Curragh.

Personnel are obliged, as I have advised the House previously and as my predecessors have done, under Defence Force regulations to vacate married quarters within a specified period of being discharged from the Permanent Defence Force. The term "overholder" is used to describe former members of the Defence Forces and their families who have refused to leave married quarters within 21 days of leaving the Defence Forces. The situation of overholders continuing to occupy married quarters is not sustainable. There are 28 overholders in married quarters in the Curragh. The overholding charge for those paying ranges from €42.16 per week to €113.48 per week depending on property type. The majority of overholders are paying at the lower end of the scale. In the Curragh Camp of the 28 overholders, only 18 are paying all charges due. My Department is, therefore, in accordance with normal procedure, seeking vacant possession of overheld married quarters and will continue to do so until the overholding issue is resolved. It does not have a role, as I previously advised the Deputy, in the provision of housing accommodation for the general public and cannot subsidise housing for persons who have no entitlement and who may well have the means to supply housing for themselves.

As promised on the last occasion this matter arose, I have asked that a technical assessment of the pool of properties, taking account of the locations of the properties within the camp, their configuration, both internally and externally, and their general condition be undertaken so as to inform a decision on whether it is economically viable to restore and use any of the properties in a cost effective manner, restoration, of course, being dependent on funding being available in the future. The funding requirement is likely to be significant as the unoccupied properties are uninhabitable, with many in extremely poor condition.

Additional information not given on the floor of the House

Any development of property at this key location from the public purse must, in the first instance, be considered for use for military purposes. I cannot, as the Deputy will understand, support the illegal occupation of defence property by those who have no entitlement. The securing of alternative housing is a matter for the individuals concerned in the first instance. If individuals are not in a position to secure housing in their own right, it may be the case that they qualify for social housing or for some level of housing assistance. Officials of my Department have met Kildare Council officials regarding overholders in order that they are aware of the situation and will advise overholders of procedures and requirements when making applications for social housing.

Clare Daly (Dublin North, Socialist Party)
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The Minister has repeated everything he said previously and, in fairness, we refuted these points on each occasion. Essentially, he has argued that he is not in the housing business, that it costs too much, that other agencies look after housing, that he is the Minister for Defence and that people knew when they were given houses that they would have to leave. We can answer all of these points. Some did not know and they are in the Visitors Gallery. Even if it was stated in their contracts, they had a reasonable expectation that they could remain because the practice had been that the Defence Forces allowed people to remain on. The Minister answered us last month to the effect that, based on his Department's figures, it made money out of the fact that they were there. Five times as much comes in by way of rent as goes out in paying for repairs to those dwellings. However, the main point we want to make is that the Minister has a duty of care. Ten days after we had raised the issue on the previous occasion and four days before Christmas one of the families received an eviction notice. The father had given 42 years of loyal service to the State and raised his family in the house. He was a proud and committed soldier. He has tried to vacate the property. He has gone to the bank, but he has been told he is too old to apply for a mortgage. He has gone to the council which has told him he has too much money to apply for a council house. The people involved will not go away. I, therefore, ask the Minister to call a halt to the evictions and try to agree a solution with them. I do not know what it might be, but treating them in this way is appalling.

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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As the Deputy is well aware, many of the individuals to whom she is referring as overholders have been overholding for many years. The Department of Defence and the Defence Forces have given a great deal of leeway and consideration to the circumstances of the individuals involved. If that had not been the case, the individuals to whom the Deputy refers, some of whom I assume are in the Visitors Gallery, would not still be residing in these properties. That is factual and the reality. The difficulty is that there were conditions attached to the usage of these properties. I have the greatest regard and respect for members of the Defence Forces and, in particular, for members with long service, but I come back to the issue mentioned. Regardless of how emotively the Deputy wishes to present it, neither the Defence Forces nor the Department of Defence is a housing authority.

The securing of alternative housing is a matter for the individuals concerned in the first instance. If they are not in a position to secure housing in their own right, again, it may be the case that they qualify for social housing and they qualify for some level of housing assistance. As I said to the Deputy previously, officials in my Department have met with officials of Kildare County Council regarding over-holders. The council is aware of the situation and it will advise people of the procedures available. However, I cannot stand over families remaining in accommodation in which they are not entitled to remain. My Department and I, as well as my predecessors, have tried to deal with this matter in as humanitarian and as considered a way as possible and we will continue to so do. I have a duty as Minister for Defence to ensure that the specific rules applicable to the use of housing are complied with.

Clare Daly (Dublin North, Socialist Party)
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The reality is that the Minister's departmental officials have not engaged with people. The Minister's implication that the Department has acted with leeway and consideration and in a humanitarian way by issuing eviction notices four days before Christmas indicates a very different understanding of the English language. I say again that these people are not going away, but not because they are unruly or troublesome; people of a military background are normally very good at obeying orders and do not like to question authority. The reason this will not go away is that they have nowhere to go. This issue will not disappear off the Minister's radar and it will only get worse as more families are brought in to the net. Deputy Wallace, in a former life, was a builder. He made an offer that he would cost the works required to make those dwellings habitable. It would not cost the Minister anything to accept those figures. I ask the Minister if he will hold off the evictions and look at those proposals. Critically, will the Minister or his Defence Forces personnel in the Curragh meet these people who are in the Visitors Gallery? If he were willing to meet them afterwards when this discussion is finished they would tell him that the information he has given about how they are being treated fairly - that they were given information, encouraged and told what options are available to them - is not correct at all. I appeal to the Minister to organise a meeting in the Curragh with the Defence Forces or else meet them now after this debate. Otherwise, we will be back here every time.

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy can repetitively raise the issue but, unfortunately, the position will not change. I will not comment on the expertise of Deputy Wallace in the building trade and what occurred with regard to outcomes in the manner in which he managed his construction company, because that is nothing to do with the matter. I have to rely on the advice and expertise of officials in the Department. As I said to the Deputy and to Deputy Wallace, who raised the same issue as to whether vacant properties have any possibility of future usage or could be renovated, this is a matter that is under consideration. We have engaged in conversations with Kildare County Council on the possibility of some joint housing scheme involving the Department of Defence and Kildare County Council with the council eventually taking over such a scheme. No funding has been identified for such a scheme and the likelihood of this being achieved is extremely uncertain due to a range of issues, including the security of Curragh Camp. Families and extended families cannot be permitted to reside in this location in circumstances in which they have ceased to have an engagement with the Defence Forces to the extent that no member of the family is a member of the Defence Forces. There are rules and regulations applicable to this, but I reiterate my central point that had there not been consideration for the real human circumstances of individual families, and had either myself or my predecessors taken the type of approach that the Deputy is describing, many of these families would have been evicted years ago by way of court order.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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I ask Members to keep to the time limits under Standing Orders.

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Fianna Fail)
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I will do my very best.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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I am not picking on Deputy Ó Fearghaíl.