Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal North East, Sinn Fein)
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5. To ask the Minister for Justice and Equality his plans to introduce amending legislation to ensure the independence of An Garda Síochána based on other policing models on this island or elsewhere in Europe. [5630/14]

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal North East, Sinn Fein)
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As I said earlier, the events of the past 18 months give us cause to engage in real reflection. As the Minister knows, the Garda Síochána Act 2005 emerged after the Morris tribunal when there was a need for huge change. The 2005 Act certainly represented considerable change, but we are in a period when we again need to look at that model. What are the Minister's thoughts in terms, for example, of the policing model in the North of Ireland where the ombudsman and the criminal justice inspectorate have stronger powers in the case of the PSNI? Has the Minister looked at that model as one we could consider here?

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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It is of crucial importance that the Garda Síochána be operationally independent but also democratically accountable. The Garda Síochána Act 2005 seeks to achieve these objectives by specifying the functions of the Garda Commissioner and the force, on the one hand, and the Minister for Justice and Equality, the Government and the Houses of the Oireachtas, on the other. The Act provides that the Commissioner has the function of directing and controlling the Garda Síochána and that he is accountable to the Minister for the performance of that function. The Commissioner is responsible for recruitment, training, discipline and the distribution of members and for all other aspects of the management and administration of the force. The Act also made the Commissioner the Accounting Officer of the force and liable to appear before the Committee of Public Accounts in that capacity.

In addition, the 2005 Act established the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission, which is empowered to carry out independent investigations into Garda conduct, and also the Garda Síochána Inspectorate, which provides expert advice on achieving the highest levels of efficiency and effectiveness in the operation and administration of the force. The accountability of the Garda Síochána has, through these measures, been significantly strengthened.

There are those who advocate a police authority, as the Deputy mentioned, but the onus is very much on them to explain how this would improve accountability. Until recently, England and Wales would have been two of the main examples of comparable jurisdictions with police authorities. However, police authorities there were abolished in 2012 and replaced by directly elected police and crime commissioners, precisely on the grounds that the police authorities were not sufficiently democratically accountable.

It is true that Northern Ireland retains a police authority - the Policing Board - and it does a good job, but most people understand that the need for the Policing Board arises from the unique requirements associated with the need for confidence building in a cross-community environment.

Another important point often overlooked by those who advocate a separate authority is that the Garda Síochána is not only the police service in this jurisdiction, but is also the security and intelligence service of the State. This makes it even more appropriate that the Garda Síochána should be accountable to the Government and ultimately to the Oireachtas.

I am perfectly willing to listen to legislative proposals on accountability, but it is important that they deal with all of the issues involved in a sensible and convincing way.

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal North East, Sinn Fein)
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We certainly need to get the balance right between having a genuinely independent police service and democratic accountability. That is a given. We can achieve that. The Policing Board model in the North is a good one. There is no doubt that the PSNI is accountable not just to the Policing Board but to the Assembly. With the right will we can achieve that.

Members of the Garda Síochána want an independent police service. The difficulty they face now is that the Commissioner is enforcing cutbacks which he presents as modernisation, smart policing and efficiency, which distances him from the grass roots gardaí who tell us a very different story. We need to make a clear separation from Government in respect of budgeting, and the present relationship, which people would argue was the reason it took so long to refer the penalty point allegations to an independent ombudsman. The relationship is too close between Government and the police. We can bring in changes that make the police more independent and deal with the Minister's legitimate concerns about democratic accountability. If we put our minds to it we can make it better. What does the Minister think of that?

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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I find it ironic that the Deputy should continue to advocate a structure that has been removed in England and Wales.

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal North East, Sinn Fein)
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I am talking about the North of Ireland.

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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When I was spokesperson on justice, one of the issues in the debate about whether there should be a separate police authority or police board was substantially influenced by the approach taken in the United Kingdom. That has proved to be an approach in which there is a lack of democratic accountability. The Policing Board in Northern Ireland has been created for particular and unique circumstances. I presume that it has been left in place and that the reforms that have taken place in England and Wales have not been transferred to or been taken on in Northern Ireland because of the unique background circumstances and the Deputy is as familiar as I am with the requirements for eligibility for membership of that board because of the need to ensure there is a balance on the board between the different communities in Northern Ireland and that both communities have confidence in policing. That was necessary.

On the issue the Deputy raises I do not see how interposing an undemocratic layer between the gardaí and the Oireachtas will assist in increasing accountability. Internationally, there is now a move away from independent policing authorities. In any event, such a structure would not be suitable for this jurisdiction, which has a single police force, which incorporates national security and border control within its remit. The Deputy has not addressed the issues surrounding that particular area in his proposal.

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal North East, Sinn Fein)
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I accept there are two challenges, ensuring that democratic accountability continues, and the fairly unique situation that the Garda Commissioner has control over policing and intelligence. The Minister should keep an open mind and engage with the need to have a truly independent policing authority, as seen by the people, separate from Government in terms of budgets and so on, and which deals with the Minister's concerns. Does the Minister accept that it is possible to achieve that balance if we put our minds to it?

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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I have no idea how we can provide funding for our police service that is separate from Government, does not take account of budgetary issues and does not appear in the Estimates that can be carefully examined, as they were only a few days ago at the Oireachtas Select Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality. The Deputy is saying that a police authority could magic up from some unidentifiable source whatever resources it believed it needed, without any decision of Government or accountability to Parliament. That does not and cannot work.

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal North East, Sinn Fein)
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That is not what I am saying. The Minister is wilfully ignoring what I am saying.

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy has made the case that the Commissioner conceals cutbacks in smart policing. Smart policing, the careful use of resources in circumstances where the strength of the Garda force has unfortunately been reduced because of the economic difficulties of this State, has resulted in a substantial reduction in crime in 12 out of the 14 categories of crime. Targeted policing has produced the type of arrests I mentioned earlier today, resulting in substantial reductions in a broad range of crimes including burglaries, and in many individuals engaged in gangland crime being brought before our courts, where their hearings are pending, or successfully convicted so that they are now guests of the State within our Prison Service. The Deputy should not deride the concept of smart policing. It means targeted, specialised approaches to the different areas in dealing with every type of crime that arises, from fraud to burglary and a whole range of other issues.

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal North East, Sinn Fein)
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The Minister is the most skilled man I have ever seen at answering a question that was not put.