Clare Daly (Dublin North, Socialist Party)
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10. To ask the Minister for Defence if he will undertake a study in relation to redeveloping the garrison community in the Curragh Camp through the re-use and restoration of the numerous buildings, housing, hospital, businesses and many other premises that could be put to beneficial civilian, military and community uses. [52901/13]

Mick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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18. To ask the Minister for Defence if he has carried out a cost benefit analysis in relation to renovating and re-using all or any of the many different empty properties in the Curragh camp for military or civilian purposes. [52911/13]

Clare Daly (Dublin North, Socialist Party)
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It is the policy of the Minister and previous governments to drive the remaining civilians out of the Curragh Camp and to have it as a purely military facility. Will the Minister stop that policy before it is too late? This was once a thriving community and there are many important buildings in the Curragh Camp, including a hospital, a prison, businesses, accommodation and dwellings of unique architecture and history. Will the Minister engage with the local historical society and people there to see what could be done to return the Curragh Camp to what it once was?

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. 10 and 18 together.

My Department is engaged on an ongoing building programme designed to modernise and enhance the training, operational and accommodation facilities available to members of the Defence Forces. Under the building programme, there has been considerable capital investment at the Curragh Camp in recent years. For example, between 2008 and 2012, my Department spent in excess of €10.7 million on major building projects at the camp.

The defence capital works provision has reduced over the past five years, from €25.6 million in 2008 to €6.24 million in 2013. The reduction in funding of 75.6% has significantly impacted on the number and scale of construction projects which it is now possible to undertake in any given year. Notwithstanding the constraints on the capital budget as outlined, plans are presently being progressed for substantial works at the camp. These are the refurbishment of the ammunition depot and the conversion to natural gas consumption of the major energy consuming facilities in the camp. This is expected to generate significant savings when completed.

The Department and the Defence Forces, similar to all other Departments, must take into account the current financial difficulties and the economic environment in which we are now operating. The budgetary situation and the operational requirements of the Defence Forces are the primary factors in determining the individual projects which can be completed within the Curragh Camp, as can be seen from the work undertaken to date. Where appropriate, existing buildings within the Curragh Camp are restored. As part of the process for the allocation of funding for individual capital projects an assessment of requirements, which includes a cost benefit analysis, is undertaken.

Clare Daly (Dublin North, Socialist Party)
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I am afraid the Minister has avoided the central thrust of the question. Clearly, expenditure on improvements and capital projects in the Curragh for military purposes is one thing, with which I do not have a difficulty, but it does not, in any way, take from the very valid points I raised in the question. The heart of this issue is that a very narrow and I suppose neoliberal view has been taken of the Curragh Camp that it is to be stripped down and redeveloped for military purposes only. That is quite short-sighted.

There are numerous buildings in the facility which the Minister is planning to demolish in an act of social vandalism and of annihilating a key part of our State's history. Thousands of people have lived in the Curragh Camp for more than 100 years. There is a hospital and there are businesses and three schools there and life is becoming very difficult for the remaining people who are there. Is this whole phase of our history to be wiped out? I believe it could be developed.

There are many uses to which it could be put. For example, there are 8,000 Kildare County Council's housing waiting list. Many of these properties could be redeveloped at very little cost. We could engage in a public works programmes which would have valid community uses. I am well aware that is a project beyond the Department of Defence but somebody with vision and who cherishes Ireland's history and heritage would engage with that because these buildings are not beyond salvation. The time is running out on them and if they are destroyed on the Minister's watch, it will be a legacy of vandalism.

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy seems to have lost sight of the fact the Curragh Camp is a military one. She seems to want to create another version of a new city or a new town in the Curragh. As I said to Deputy Wallace yesterday in another context, I would be interested in him sharing with me what it is that is good that the Garda does. I would be interested in Deputy Daly sharing with us one day what it is that is good that the Defence Forces do because it seems her only approach to defence matters is to raise a number of issues that are not directly connected to defence and the functions our military perform at home and abroad but are issues in which the Deputy has a personal interest, which she is entitled to have, and are designed always to suggest that the Defence Forces or my Department lack insight into what we are doing.

Our primary role in the Department of Defence is to ensure the Defence Forces receive the training and have available to them the resources to which they are entitled, that our barracks are fit for purpose in the 21st century and that improvements are made which benefit the functions and capabilities of our Defence Forces.

As I said previously, there is an ongoing building programme to modernise and enhance the training and operational facilities available to the members of the Defence Forces. I do not have an open pot of money I can spend on other matters. The funding does not exist. The Deputy may have noticed the State has had certain fiscal difficulties. I know that she and her colleagues believe there is an open pot of money to throw like confetti at a wedding at every project of which they think without ever having to raise any taxes in order to meet that expenditure.

The Curragh Camp, effectively, is an operational military installation and, as such, the priorities on development of facilities to enhance the operational capability of the Defence Forces where facilities are needed, existing buildings are assessed and if cost effective they are restored to meet the need. I make no apology for developing facilities to enhance the operational capabilities of the Defence Forces because that is what is required and that must be the primary objective.

Mick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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We fully understand that funding is scarce but that should not prevent the Minister from looking at the best option for the State. We were in the Curragh Camp two weeks ago looking at the properties and many of the old red brick houses - the married quarters - were very well built. Good brick, slate, cast iron fittings and hardwood timber was used in them. However, much of the repair work was poor and cheap materials were used, including cheap PVC and white deal, which is not suited to Irish weather, and they give the properties a bad look. The houses could be renovated in a sensible way and it would be worth it given what they would cost to renovate.

There is a shortage of alternative housing, which is a serious problem. As Deputy Daly said, there are 8,000 on Kildare County Council's housing list. I know the Minister said it should be a military facility only but the community is involved in the place also. There are three schools there which run successfully and people from outside the camp are involved in them. It would be a good investment on the part of the State. I do not know if the Minister has looked at a cost benefit analysis of the alternatives if the State does not look after these houses.

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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First - I mean this seriously - I bow to the Deputy's expertise in the construction industry and in looking at the houses and at their possibilities but, put simply, I do not have the funding to restore housing accommodation and I have a responsibility, as Minister for Defence, to ensure we do everything necessary to facilitate the operational capacities of the Defence Forces and the best training possible. In the context of the limited capital available to us, it is important we focus this expenditure on facilities related to that.

The Department of Defence does not have a role in providing housing or facilities other than those necessary for operational requirements. I will reflect on what the Deputy has said. I am familiar with the houses that have been referenced. For a range of security reasons, we cannot open the Curragh Camp to general housing for individuals who are not connected with the Defence Forces. As the Deputy will presumably understand, that would create its own range of difficulties and problems. I will be happy to reflect on the manner in which the Deputy has raised this issue. Unfortunately, my hands are substantially tied from a financial perspective. The dramatic reduction in the capital available on the defence side was detailed by me earlier. I have to ensure there is a focus on ensuring the training, safety, well-being and operational capacities of members of the Defence Forces.

Clare Daly (Dublin North, Socialist Party)
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We understand the Minister's priority in that regard. We appreciate that this task is probably bigger than the Department of Defence. This is not about creating a new city - it is about recognising that this was always a garrison community. Civilians with connections to the Army lived in that community and assisted it. The value of this key and unique part of our history should be maintained. The unique architectural properties that are still there could be put to ongoing use rather than being destroyed. It is poor form that the Department is demolishing properties and not keeping a record of the housing stock that is being demolished. While these structures can be saved for many purposes, I recognise the Minister's point that it is not up to the Department of Defence to do so. Would he consider asking his Cabinet colleagues from other Departments that are responsible for housing and related matters to participate in a joint task force on heritage value to save those aspects of the Curragh Camp that are currently under threat? Does he think there would be value in undertaking such a project on a cross-departmental basis?

Mick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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I understand the principle that underpins the Minister's statement that he would prefer to confine this facility to military personnel. If accommodation is not provided for military personnel at the camp, they will have to be housed from the pot of housing that is available outside the camp. Regardless of whether social housing, subsidised private rental or some other form of provision is made, the State will have to meet the cost. I have seen houses that could be made habitable for a much smaller amount of money than that which would have to be spent in such circumstances. At a time when there is a shortage of social housing in this country, it would cost more to build social housing than to put right the more substantial housing stock at this camp.

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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It is important for me to reiterate that the Department of Defence is not a housing authority. I am quite happy to reflect on the issues raised by the Deputies. I was asked to engage with my Cabinet colleagues. I remind the House that they are facing similar capital expenditure constraints. A cost-benefit analysis of the Deputies' proposal would be very interesting, especially if it revealed whether public housing could be provided more effectively in a better location. I refer to the provision of new accommodation as opposed to the restoration of the accommodation at Curragh Camp. Certainly, the housing at Curragh Camp could not be opened to the general community.

I was also asked whether some discrete form of housing, which would be impossible to provide elsewhere because of the limited amount of it that is there, should be provided for a small number of members of the Defence Forces. I am reminded of the issue on which Deputy Daly attacked me earlier. We can assume for a minute that these properties could be made available for rental to current members of the Defence Forces, just as the properties we were discussing earlier have been. If people who have been in the Defence Forces for some years engage in overholding and fail to vacate those houses, will my successor as Minister for Defence be attacked for showing a lack of humanity? In such circumstances, will the Department of Defence and the Defence Forces get entangled in public housing issues that are more appropriate to local authorities? There is a difficulty in this area.

I absolutely understand that the Deputies have a genuine concern in this regard. I respect that. The question of whether this issue could be dealt with differently is an interesting one. They cannot have it both ways, however. They cannot say the Department of Defence should provide housing, but then attack the Minister for Defence of the day - regardless of who he or she happens to be - on the basis that he or she lacks humanity when people do not vacate that housing as they are legally required to do. It is not reasonable for one to argue that the Department of Defence should create additional housing to be let out if one is going to suggest that the next Minister is evil incarnate for seeking to get those who do not comply with the leasing arrangements to vacate those properties.

Clare Daly (Dublin North, Socialist Party)
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This is about more than housing.

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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I suggest that the Deputies might consider a coherent and comprehensive approach to addressing these issues, rather than dealing with them on a fragmented basis and in a manner generated to create newspaper headlines.

Clare Daly (Dublin North, Socialist Party)
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Maybe the Department could consider such an approach.

Mick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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We are encouraging joined-up thinking.