Billy Kelleher (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I want to say at the outset that I am conscious we are talking about an individual who is not here to speak for himself. I do not want to impugn anybody's character or integrity but in the public interest I would be failing in my duties if I did not raise this issue. We need to get a full statement of clarification following reports that the director general of the Health Service Executive, HSE, Mr. Tony O'Brien, had received a salary top-up for a job he was no longer doing. It would appear that Mr. O'Brien initially received the payment when he was the head of the National Cancer Screening Service in 2006 and had taken on extra responsibilities as project director of the national plan for radiation oncology on which he did a very fine job. It is now reported that he retained the top-up payment after he moved to the role of assistant director of the HSE in 2010 and continued to be paid until 2012 when he took over the running of the HSE. The error, as it was described, was only discovered when Mr. O'Brien took up his new role in 2012, and no fault on the part of Mr. O'Brien has been found. However, serious questions remain about how a senior HSE official could have been paid a salary top-up for a job he had already left. When the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform was initially asked to ratify the HSE director general salary of €195,000 a year, it refused amid concerns that 18% of Mr. O'Brien's previous salary should not have been allowed. We need to know whether Mr. O'Brien legally retained an 18% top-up on his salary for two years after he left the job, and whether the HSE continued to pay the top-up regardless of the Department's concerns.

We must remember the context in this regard because Mr. O'Brien has indicated that the HSE will claw back funds from any hospitals or health agencies that continue to flout a ban on top-up payments to senior officials. Could an arrangement be put in place whereby Mr. O'Brien's salary is reduced by the relevant amount he received annually in the years after he joined the HSE?

I watched Mr. O'Brien's appearance before the Committee of Public Accounts and he was quite forceful in saying that a full review of the agencies and voluntary hospitals would be carried out and, where possible, that the money would be recouped. He went on to state that the nod and wink practice of the past is over. If there is to be consistency and credibility in dealing with this issue we need a full statement from the director general and the Minister in that context.

There is another key question that must be addressed rather than me trying to extract this information over a period. When Mr. O'Brien was negotiating as director general designate with the Department of Health and the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform did he request, and this is critically important, that a top-up payment should be included in a financial package as part of the new salary? That is what we need to find out because we know that some section 38 voluntary organisations and agencies in hospitals have been involved in the practice of top-up payments. The Committee of Public Accounts is dealing with that and the HSE director general, Mr. Tony O'Brien, was very forceful on the issue but to be consistent and to have credibility we must have that information. The key question is whether Mr. O'Brien requested that top-up be included in his financial package when he was negotiating with the Department of Health and the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform and finalising that package for the role of director general designate of the HSE.

Kathleen Lynch (Cork North Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the Deputy for raising this matter. The current director general of the HSE was in receipt of an allowance of approximately €26,000 between 2006 and 2012. This allowance was granted by the HSE to the Director General when he was chief executive of the National Cancer Screening Service in recognition of very significant additional responsibilities which he took on as project director for the National Programme for Radiation Oncology from 1 February 2006. Even the Deputy would agree we are all grateful for the people that introduced, including his party when in government.

While the allowance granted was intended to reflect very significant extra responsibilities, and these additional duties were discharged successfully over a number of years, this arrangement was put in place without the approval of the then Department of Health and Children and the Department of Finance. As I said, and to be transparent, that was in 2006.

In these circumstances the Department of Health wrote to the HSE in November 2012 requesting that it review its procedures for the sanctioning of pay levels, including allowances. In particular, the executive was asked to take the necessary steps to ensure that adequate governance and oversight controls are in place to ensure that the required sanctioning procedures are strictly adhered to.

The Department of Health has reviewed the circumstances of the case of the director general of the HSE and it is not proposed that recoupment of the unsanctioned allowances be sought. Deputy Kelleher referred to the context, and we have to see it in that context.

The approved salary rate for the post of director general is now €185.350. This rate is at a much lower level than the rate at which the chief executive officers of the HSE were paid in the period 2005 to 2012. The salary of the last chief executive officer of the HSE was €322,113 per annum plus additional benefits. It is important to point out that the role of director general of the HSE is one of the most challenging and onerous roles within the public service. I think we are all agreed on that.

As the Deputy is aware, I have requested urgent action to ensure that every section 38 agency is fully compliant with Government pay policy. The HSE has a team of senior managers following up with individual agencies. In addition, the director general of the HSE is meeting the chairpersons and the chief executive officers of all the section 38 organisations this Thursday. Separate meetings are also being held with the organisations concerned.

Due process will have to be followed in the examination of top-ups to senior staff in section 38 agencies. As outlined in the national pay policy, a section 38 provider may make a business case to the HSE to continue to pay a specific allowance. Where the HSE is satisfied that there are legitimate reasons for continuation of the allowance it may decide to apply to the Department of Health for sanction. Each such case will be determined on its merits and my Department will liaise, as appropriate, with the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform.

I am confident that the HSE will take whatever action is necessary to achieve full compliance with Government pay policy from the agencies concerned and that any governance deficits identified are comprehensively rectified immediately. I agree with Deputy Kelleher that this is an issue of public concern.

Billy Kelleher (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I appreciate the Minister of State's reply in this context. As I said at the outset, this is not impugning anybody's character but it would be remiss of me in my role as an Opposition spokesperson not to raise the issue and call for clarity and a statement from Mr. O'Brien as director general of the HSE which, bear in mind, oversees the spending of approximately €13 billion per year of public funds and has a critical role in the lives of people on a daily basis, as was discussed in the previous Topical Issue matter.

I did not expect the Minister of State to refer to it but Mr. O'Brien stated he was unaware this top-up continued to be paid and that it was an error in the context of the HSE not receiving sanction from the Department of Health or the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform. When Mr. O'Brien was appointed director general designate, did he at that stage request that top-up payment be rolled into the financial package, or remunerative package, he was looking for as director general designate of the HSE? If that is the case, then a major issue has to be addressed because the error would have come to light at that stage and yet he would have still have insisted on it. That is the key issue. We have to ascertain whether that request was made. I do not know if it was but we need a statement from Mr. O'Brien and the Department that at no stage was a top-up requested to be formalised as part of his remunerative package as director general designate. That is the key issue because as the Minister of State and I have said, this is an issue of credibility and consistency and the idea that the nod and the wink practice of the past in regard to top-ups must be rooted out. Clearly, the person most in charge and responsible for rooting them out will be the director general himself and there cannot be any questions about that particular individual in terms of top-up payments when he is trying to root out a practice that has gone viral through lots of other agencies.

Kathleen Lynch (Cork North Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is unfair to ask that question when we simply do not know. The only people who know are Mr. O'Brien and those who were present at that meeting. It is unfair to ask a question like that because it simply leaves it hanging there. The question will probably get a lot of publicity but if the answer is "No", it will get very little airtime and we will have to come back to the House and make that very clear because it is about ensuring natural justice is applied not only to the man in the street but to those of us in whom great trust is placed.