Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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I thank the Ceann Comhairle for allowing me to raise the important issue of top-up payments made to senior executives of the Central Remedial Clinic in Clontarf in my Dublin constituency. I commend my colleague, Deputy Shane Ross, for highlighting issues of accounting and governance at the clinic at a recent meeting of the Committee of Public Accounts. When I first heard about these top-up payments, I was appalled and gutted. I speak as someone who has actively supported the Central Remedial Clinic for many years, both financially and politically in this House. I also felt let down and angry on behalf of the 4,000 families who used the clinic's services.

As part of the austerity measures, funding for the Central Remedial Clinic has been cut in recent years. We have now discovered that between €12 million and €14 million had been stashed away in an account. This is not an example of good practice.

Does the Minister agree that parents, service users and members of the public deserve clear answers on the top-up payments made to senior personnel in the Central Remedial Clinic? Who authorised these payments? Were the 4,000 families using the services of the clinic aware of them? Did the relevant authorities breach Government pay policy? What was the role of the Health Service Executive in the matter? Why does the Government lack the appetite to police voluntary organisations? Why has the Charities Act of 2009 not been implemented? While a charities regulator is to be established, it will not be effective until 2014.

Was there a cover-up in relation to the HSE and the CRC?

There is also a serious credibility issue here. The political advisers of both the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation, Deputy Richard Bruton, and the Minister for Social Protection, Deputy Joan Burton, got €35,000 over the pay cap with the special pay scale of €127,000.

I raise these issues because they are important. Parents and service users in the CRC are demanding answers and they want credible answers.

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick, Fine Gael)
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With the leaders' allowance, the previous speaker would know a great deal about top-ups. The Minister for Health, Deputy Reilly, needs to be complimented-----

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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As Deputy O'Donovan will be aware, I am accountable.

James Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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To himself.

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick, Fine Gael)
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The Minister needs to be complimented for initiating-----

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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It is up on my website for the past five years.

Peter Mathews (Dublin South, Independent)
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I cannot hear Deputy O'Donovan.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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Deputy O'Donovan started it.

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Acting Chairman. The truth hurts.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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I use the money to employ staff.

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick, Fine Gael)
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I think I deserve a little time at the end.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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Deputy O'Donovan should get his facts right.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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At long last, the Minister is doing what we asked him to do.

Peter Mathews (Dublin South, Independent)
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I am finding it uncomfortable. Would Deputy Finian McGrath please desist?

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick, Fine Gael)
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The truth hurts. Deputy Finian McGrath knows that as well as I do.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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Deputy O'Donovan would want to get his facts right.

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick, Fine Gael)
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There is 30 seconds gone and I presume the Acting Chairman will allocate me a little time.

Peter Mathews (Dublin South, Independent)
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Deputy O'Donovan is not to worry, I am a fair cathaoirleach.

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Acting Chairman.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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Deputy O'Donovan should get his facts right.

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick, Fine Gael)
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The Minister should be complimented for initiating the study which unearthed this in the first place. It strikes at the heart of the culture in these organisations. I am confident that this is not the only organisation in this position. I am also sure that this Department is not the only Department in this position either. What has been unearthed here is symptomatic of what was probably going on with a nod and a wink type culture which existed primarily under the previous Government of which the previous speaker was also a keen supporter.

One of the issues I want the Minister to address is the governance in many of the organisations that have been referred to, particularly the sections 38 and 39 ones. I refer to the holding of AGMs, the allowing of persons to become members of them, the accountability of board members and the suitability of board members. Also, there is a need for public-interest board members who can articulate the public's concerns but, more importantly, to be the eyes and ears for the Department in how its funding allocation has been spent.

I would also like to see the publication of reports of audits that have been carried out. The assignment of auditors is also important. While I would agree that the Committee of Public Accounts has a role in the matter, the role of other Oireachtas committees also needs to be looked at because, as I said at the start, I do not believe the Department of Health is the only Department that will unearth issues of this nature. The Minister's Cabinet colleagues need to be encouraged to initiate investigations across all organisations that are in receipt of funding from their respective Departments because what has been unearthed in the Central Remedial Clinic is symptomatic of what was wrong with this country for the previous 14 years in the type of cronyism and nepotism that has destroyed the country.

Support needs to be given to the Minister for Health but, in addition, space needs to be given to ensure the investigation is proper.

Peter Mathews (Dublin South, Independent)
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Deputy O'Donovan got an extra 30 seconds there.

Derek Keating (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Ceann Comhairle for the opportunity of addressing this issue briefly and I thank the Minister for Health and the two Ministers of State for coming into the Dáil today.

Shock waves have been sent down the spines of the Irish people in recent days and weeks and one of the reasons is that Irish people have shown themselves, time and again down through the years, to be the most generous people on this earth, supporting local, national and international deserving causes.

One of the issues I have concern about is the reports of the recent top-up payments to the chief executive and senior officials in Our Lady's Hospice in Harold's Cross. It is one of Dublin's most famous charities and has been supported generously by the Irish people for many decades. It has been reported that a top-up payment of over €21,000 has been paid to the chief executive and two senior officials. Over a five-year period, that amounts to over €100,000. As far as I am concerned, that is a serious issue. It shows an absence of transparency. It shows an absence of accountability. It shows an absence of respect to the Irish people. My understanding is that this is funded by interest on an investment of over €2 million. The Irish people did not know about that. They deserve to know about that.

I ask the Minister to comment on that issue and state what we can do to ensure that confidence is restored to those charitable organisations to allow the people to continue to provide the generous support that they have been giving for many decades.

James Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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I thank Deputies Keating, Deputy Donovan and Deputy McGrath for raising this issue.

As Minister for Health and a member of a government that is currently trying to address an unprecedented financial crisis, I reiterate my commitment to ensuring that scarce public funds are expended on services, not on unsanctioned payments to senior managers.

Front-line staff in the health services are subject to the Government's pay policy and are also playing their part in the reform of the health services through new working practices and rosters. The same rules must be applied to senior managers as to those on the front line.

I take this opportunity to thank all those who work in the health services on the front line for the sterling work that they have done. Despite a reduction of 10% in staffing numbers and a 20% reduction in the budgets, they have improved the service, as is evident from the reduction of 34% in the number of those who must endure long trolley waits and meeting the one-year inpatient target in 2011 and the nine-month target in 2012, and they will meet the eight-month target for inpatient treatment this years and it is a significant credit to them.

In the light of the 2012 HIQA report on Tallaght Hospital, at my request the Secretary General of my Department wrote to the then CEO of the HSE in May 2012, asking him to take steps to ensure that senior managers in other section 38 agencies were not in receipt of remuneration in addition to the approved rates. On foot of this, the CEO of the HSE requested the HSE's internal audit directorate to undertake a review of remuneration in section 38 agencies. This exercise identified a significant number of cases in which senior personnel were in receipt of additional remuneration outside the terms of the approved pay scales.

In the light of these findings and having consulted with the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform, on 27 September 2013 my Department issued to the HSE a detailed pay policy for the health service, in particular organisations funded under section 38 of the Health Act 2004 to provide services on behalf of the executive. The pay policy makes clear that bodies funded under section 38 of the Health Act 2004 may not supplement approved rates of remuneration with either Exchequer funding or non-Exchequer sources of funding.

On 30 September 2013 the HSE wrote to each of the service providers concerned, providing them with the internal audit report and the pay policy, seeking confirmation that remuneration arrangements are in full compliance with this policy.

I met the Director General of the HSE earlier this week to receive an update on these matters. The HSE has a team of senior managers engaged in a detailed process, involving verification of the current position in each agency and the taking of all necessary follow-up steps to ensure compliance with Government pay policy. Meetings are currently being arranged with the organisations concerned.

In regard to the Central Remedial Clinic, the HSE has advised me that the unsanctioned payments arrangements entered into by CRC with its former CEO and other senior staff at the organisation were not at any stage agreed to or sanctioned by the HSE.

I will be monitoring this process closely and am satisfied that the HSE will take whatever action is necessary to achieve full compliance with Government pay policy from the agencies concerned and to ensure that any governance deficits identified are comprehensively rectified immediately.

Peter Mathews (Dublin South, Independent)
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The three Deputies have a minute each - three minutes in total - for supplementary statements.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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I thank the Minister for his reply, particularly where he stated his commitment to ensuring that scarce public funds are expended on services, not on unsanctioned payments to senior managers. That is what we all agree on.

My colleague, Deputy O'Donovan, should get his facts right. The dogs in the street know that the Independent TDs use their allowances to employ extra staff.

I remind Deputy O'Donovan that the type of cronyism he is talking about has been going on under his Government's watch for the past two years. That is a fact. That cuts to services for people with disabilities are occurring is another fact. The Government cut the respite care grant, another fact. I will not take any lectures on that issue.

To return to the core issue, it is very important that people have confidence in the senior management of organisations that provide services for people with disabilities. It is important also that people know that the few extra bob that they give is going to services on the ground. That is what the families want and that is what the vast majority of citizens in this State want.

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick, Fine Gael)
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I welcome the Minister's statement but I urge him to ask his Cabinet colleagues to examine their own Departments because I am certain this issue is not confined to the Department of Health and I do not believe he should be carrying the can for it on his own. I ask him to examine issues within these section 38 and 39 organisations such as cars, bonuses and the pension arrangements in place for these people. Some people leading these so-called organisations are earning multiples of the Minister's salary and the Taoiseach's salary. There is a morality issue here for the service users, the parents of these children in many cases and the people who go out collecting the money. Those people are annoyed and distraught by what has been unearthed in the past week and to restore confidence and ensure that the charitable donations are not affected, this issue must be addressed head-on. Steps must be taken either through legislation or regulations to ensure it does not happen again and that there is proper governance in these organisations.

Derek Keating (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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As someone who has spent many years on various boards of charitable organisations during my adult life, I am aware, as I am sure is the Minister, that there are more than 8,000 registered charities in Ireland. Given the news we have about these top-up payments, it is important to state that every member of every board has equal responsibility. It should not come down only to the chairperson, the financial director or controller, or the secretary. Every board member of every charitable organisation has a responsibility. We must ensure that a proper registry of charitable organisations is put in place. I have spoken to the Minister of this and he indicated that it would cost money to do that but we cannot afford to wait any longer given the news that we now know. Every charitable organisation must ensure that it has adequate transparency in its financial dealings, proper accountability, and in the times we are living in there must be proper corporate governance in every charitable organisation in this country. The Irish people deserve nothing less.

James Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Deputies for their contributions. Obviously, this is a very disturbing development for people, especially people who have given so generously during these straitened times. They will be particularly disturbed to think that money they have given for a specific charitable purpose to look after those with disabilities could be used for other purposes.

I must remind Deputy Finian McGrath that these practices developed during previous Fianna Fáil-led Government regimes which he was happy to support.

I have instructed the HSE to write to the section 39 agencies also to ensure that those who are in receipt of large amounts of taxpayers' money be made compliant with public pay policy. I am sure my Government Cabinet colleagues will be examining the issue from their own perspective and that of their Departments. I would remind people that the HSE has engaged in a very careful process, one that will yield the result that we all want, which is total transparency, because transparency brings accountability and when one has accountability one can get fairness. That has been a core value of what we have been at in the Department of Health in terms of all our reforms.

I thank the Deputies for raising this issue. I appeal to people not to in any way lose faith with the long-held tradition of giving of themselves for the benefit of others who find themselves in more difficult situations.