Charlie McConalogue (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
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94. To ask the Minister for Education and Skills his response to continuing concerns among teachers and parents regarding junior certificate reforms and the need for independent assessment of examination papers; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [50479/13]

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
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My question relates to the issue of junior certificate reform, particularly the need for independent assessment and marking of examinations. Parents and teachers alike have expressed their concerns regarding the changes proposed by the Minister in this area. I understand the initial advice from the National Council for Curriculum and Assessment to the Minister was that the junior certificate should remain an externally assessed examination that is set and certified by the State. The Minister, however, seems to be going down a different path. I am asking for a commitment, as part of junior certificate reform, that there be independent assessment and that it remain a State-certified exam.

Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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Extensive quality assurance measures will be included in the new junior cycle. These include subject specifications with clear learning outcomes and samples of student work outlining the standards expected; an assessment and moderation toolkit; a junior cycle for teachers team which will provide continuous professional development programmes for teachers, principals and deputy principals in educational assessment and moderation; and the introduction of standardised tests for all students in English reading, mathematics and science, and in Irish reading for Irish-medium schools.

The State Examinations Commission will set and mark the final examinations in English, Irish and mathematics until such time as the new assessment methodologies are embedded. The commission will provide the final papers and marking schemes for the other 18 subjects which teachers will use. School moderation will provide for standardisation. The results awarded by schools to their students will be monitored by the Department and anomalies will be highlighted and acted upon. A dedicated website, www.juniorcycle.ie, can be used by parents, teachers and students to access resources.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister indicated that the State Examinations Commission will, initially, continue to set the paper and assess the exams in the case of three subjects.

Will the Minister give a commitment that we will continue to have a State-certified junior certificate examination and that in future we will also have independent assessment of junior certificate examinations?

Let us consider the position. My party fully supports the need for junior certificate reform and the reasons behind it. That is why we initiated the process of consultation and reform which the Minister is now carrying on. However, the move to make the junior certificate examination a low stakes examination, a move we support, can be done without making it an examination which is not assessed by the State and which is not a state-certified examination. We need to retain that aspect of it.

Teachers and parents will make the point to the Minister. A person is not supposed to examine his own work. Teachers have made points about examining students' work, but we should recognise that in marking examination papers, teachers are also marking themselves in some ways in terms of how their classes have done. Students, parents and teachers need to have confidence that if a student is doing an examination in Carndonagh Community School, the result can be benchmarked against the result that a student gets in another school in another part of the country.

Olivia Mitchell (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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Deputy, I will come back to you. Let the Minister respond.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
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We cannot have a situation whereby the credibility of that benchmark and examination is lost because of the approach the Minister is taking.

Olivia Mitchell (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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You are stretching your time.

Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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I put it to the Deputy and to the wider teaching community that the decision taken to abolish the examination - I welcome the support for it from across the House - was a big step, just as the abolition of the primary certificate in 1968 was a big step. No one would suggest that in 2013 we should go back and introduce a written State examination for 12 year olds in primary school. That was the norm and, sadly, it was the final State examination for far too many people. We do not want young people to leave school at 15 years. They do not need a State examination. The need moderation and they need to be measured in respect of the progress they are making an education, but not necessarily by a State examination. That said, we understand the sensitivities and this is why, for a period, as the process is bedded in, the State Examinations Commission will set the examination and mark it in the three critical areas, that is, English, mathematics and Irish. Over time, that will evolve.

The first cohort starting English will enter first year next September. It will sit an examination in 2017 after the next general election. Over time, up to 2020, the process will be rolled out. As we travel that journey together we will make the changes that are necessary on the basis of evidence and the constructive engagement that we are getting all the time from the teaching community.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
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It is important to point out that the initial advice to the Minister from the National Council for Curriculum and Assessment, following consultation, was that we should keep a State examination and that it should continue to be set by the State and marked and assessed independently. The Minister has gone down a different route. I heard him say at one of the teaching conferences in the spring this was a personal political project of his.

Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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It was a decision.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
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A personal political decision. I recall the Minister describing it as a personal political project. The Minister is outlining that in the first three years the first three subjects will continue to be independently assessed.

In no way do we want the junior certificate to be a terminal examination. Much progress has been made to ensure students get to leaving certificate level. However, we want the learning to be centred around the student and absorption. I see no reason why we should go down a path whereby the credibility of the benchmark, assessment and examination is undermined and the Minister should engage seriously in that regard.

I am aware of the view the of Minister but he should listen to other people. As we start the process the Minister should give confidence to people such that the process will not be undermined. Without the Minister admitting that, he should say that he will listen to those concerns and ensure they are responded to. Otherwise, that confidence will not be there.

Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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A State examination at 15 years of age can have a detrimental affect on people, as we already see with the existing junior certificate. We need moderation and we need to assess the progress students are making but we do not need a State examination to do that. We need to have continuous discussion and understanding and review progress as we go through the process. If changes need to be made based on what the outcomes are delivering, then we will make those changes.

However, as regards the final destination of one State examination at the end of second level or post-primary education when aged approximately 18, this is what many other countries have, including Scotland, Finland and New Zealand, and is a place where we should be.