Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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There have been many debates on the pros and cons of selling State assets. The Government withdrew the option of selling Coillte, which was the right decision. Fine Gael had a plan in 2009 to sell State assets with a view to creating new jobs. One hour ago in the Chamber the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Brendan Howlin, confirmed no proceeds had been received from the sale of State assets, that none would be received by 15 December when the troika leaves and that none would be received in this calendar year. We all welcome the departure of the troika on 15 December. It is clear that during the three year plan no proceeds were received from the sale of State assets. Now that the troika is leaving and will no longer be here to ask the Government to sell them, the European Union is not asking the Government to sell State assets, as is no one on the Opposition side.

Aodhán Ó Ríordáin (Dublin North Central, Labour)
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Wrong; the Deputy told us to do so.

Dinny McGinley (Donegal South West, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Sean Fleming's party sold the whole country.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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In 2014 why is------

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Will Members, please, allow Deputy Sean Fleming to pose his questions?

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Why is the Labour Party, headed by the Tánaiste and ably assisted by the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, Deputy Pat Rabbitte, determined to proceed with the sale of Bord Gáis in 2014, as well as the sale of power generation plants owned by the ESB iwhen no one other than Fine Gael is asking it to do so? As the leader of the Labour Party, will the Tánaiste move away from his programme for Government commitments? It may have been part of the troika arrangement, but the troika is now gone and no one is asking the Labour Party to do so except Fine Gael.

Ciara Conway (Waterford, Labour)
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No thanks to Fianna Fáil.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Will the Labour Party stand up for the national assets?

Derek Nolan (Galway West, Labour)
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The Deputy is a hypocrite.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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The Government would privatise their grannies.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Settle down.

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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Of all the hard-necked hypocrisy I have heard-----

Deputies:

Hear, hear.

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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-----in this House in the past three years, this beats it all. This is wonderful. Here is the party that did a deal with the troika when it came in here three years ago-----

Ciara Conway (Waterford, Labour)
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It said the troika was not coming in.

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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-----to sell €5 billion worth of State assets.

Arthur Spring (Kerry North-West Limerick, Labour)
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Correct.

John Lyons (Dublin North West, Labour)
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Remember that?

Niall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
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The Tánaiste did not agree with it.

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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To get €5 billion by the end of 2010, one would have had to sell every State company, port, airport and virtually everything that the State owned. That is what Fianna Fáil agreed, and we had to renegotiate.

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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Hear, hear.

Niall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
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The Tánaiste did not agree at the time.

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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The Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Brendan Howlin, renegotiated that deal with the European Commission. Incidentally, under the previous terms, all €5 billion of the proceeds of the asset sale were to be used entirely for writing down debt and none of it was to be used for reinvestment in the Irish economy.

Dinny McGinley (Donegal South West, Fine Gael)
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An own goal.

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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The renegotiation by this Government was for a minimum of €1 billion, with a target of €3 billion and 50% of the total, to be used for reinvestment in the Irish economy to generate employment. We had always stated in the programme for Government that there could be a strategic sale of non-strategic State assets, with income arising from sales reinvested in the economy in order to generate employment and bring about economic recovery. It is almost to the day the third anniversary of Fianna Fáil's bringing the troika to the country, and it is almost to the day the anniversary of the party's putting the country into receivership. For the Deputy to come in today with this cant, hypocrisy and nonsense, it really does beat Banagher.

Deputies:

Hear, hear.

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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Shame on them.

Paudie Coffey (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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Add that to the shopping list. Put the lot on it.

Aodhán Ó Ríordáin (Dublin North Central, Labour)
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They should apologise.

Dinny McGinley (Donegal South West, Fine Gael)
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Those opposite have a bad case of political amnesia.

Paudie Coffey (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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The shelves would be clear.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Settle down.

James Bannon (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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They have the wrong script.

John Lyons (Dublin North West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

They keep digging.

Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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Stop digging, Deputy Fleming, and sit down.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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It is clear that I have rattled the Tánaiste.

Tom Hayes (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Dooley should tweet Deputy Fleming something else.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Please, allow the Deputy a minute to respond.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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That outburst will go down in history.

Aodhán Ó Ríordáin (Dublin North Central, Labour)
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Taxi for Fleming.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Allow the Deputy to respond.

Pat Rabbitte (Dublin South West, Labour)
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Hold my jacket.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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As the Tánaiste knows, there was no mention of €5 billion in any agreement with the troika.

Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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That is a fact.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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As the Tánaiste knows, we have met all the targets in the 12 quarterly reviews. We have received no money from the sale of State assets during the three-year programme, which is now ending. The question remains of why the Labour Party is determined to take on Fine Gael clothes and sell national infrastructure.

Ciara Conway (Waterford, Labour)
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It is better than taking on Fianna Fáil's.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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This includes electricity generation by the ESB and Bord Gáis Energy. Why is the Labour Party agreeing to this when nobody inside the House, other than Fine Gael, or outside the House is looking for it? The IMF has not asked the Government to sell State assets, as its representatives are on the way home, and the EU has not asked us to sell State assets. When nobody is asking it to do so, why is the Labour Party determined to sell our national infrastructure?

Aodhán Ó Ríordáin (Dublin North Central, Labour)
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Well, that was a disaster.

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick, Fine Gael)
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Why does the Deputy not ask Mary O'Rourke?

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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The Deputy mentioned a rattle. The only rattle we are getting here is the rattle of the decrepit memorandum of understanding that is still around-----

Ciara Conway (Waterford, Labour)
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Rattles thrown out of a pram.

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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-----and the empty vessel that is now Fianna Fáil. Will the Deputy make up his mind on his position?

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
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What is the Labour Party's position?

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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He was in here an hour ago asking the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform why State assets had not been sold-----

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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-----and why he had not raised money to date from the sale of State assets.

Tom Hayes (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Healy-Rae cannot even back him up.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Unreasonable.

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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It is true that Fianna Fáil did not put the figure of €5 billion in the memorandum of understanding.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The Tánaiste stated a minute ago that we had.

James Bannon (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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Be quiet. It is a bad day for the Deputy.

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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It was very clear-----

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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It is backtracking.

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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It was plain that this was the clear understanding with the troika, and it was certainly made known to us when the Government was formed. We are now exiting the troika programme in which Fianna Fáil placed us. If the party had had its way we would now be in a position in which virtually every port, airport and State company had been sold. Instead, the Deputy is complaining today that no money has been raised from the sale of State assets.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Nobody believes that.

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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That was the effect of what Fianna Fáil agreed with the troika.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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There was no agreement to that effect.

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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It takes some neck and hypocrisy-----

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
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What is the Labour Party's policy?

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The Labour Party is rattled.

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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-----to come here today and raise this issue-----

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Why is the ESB being sold?

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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-----of all issues.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Why is it being sold?

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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Make up your mind where you stand on the issue.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Where does the Tánaiste stand?

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

An hour ago it was a different tune.

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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Fianna Fáil should make up its mind on where it stands on investment in the economy and the creation of jobs.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Why are the assets being sold?

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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Happily, this country is in a position in which it has-----

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The Government has the same power-----

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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-----exited the bailout into which Fianna Fáil put us. We are moving towards economic recovery.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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The Tánaiste did not answer the question.

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal North East, Sinn Fein)
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There are reports in this morning's media that the Garda Commissioner has demanded the return of files from the Committee of Public Accounts with regard to the penalty points debacle. I hope the Tánaiste agrees that this a disturbing development. We can recap what has happened. Two Garda whistleblowers were very concerned about practices surrounding the termination of penalty points. They reported concerns to the internal Garda confidential recipient in March 2012 and the issue went nowhere, so the whistleblowers were essentially stonewalled for months. In autumn 2012, under section 62 of the Garda Síochána Act 2005, the whistleblowers passed their evidence to Members of the Houses of the Oireachtas, as they are entitled to do. No investigation that we are aware of had taken place within An Garda Síochána until the information was passed. The people in question were discredited and talked down afterwards. An internal Garda investigation that followed was not in the public interest, and there should have been an independent investigation. When the results of the investigation were published, the Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Shatter, sought to discredit the whistleblowers and downplay the extent of the scandal.

There were ongoing attempts afterwards to discredit the Garda whistleblowers, but they have now been vindicated. We now have the report of the Comptroller and Auditor General, which reveals that one in five motorists facing offences got off and half of all summonses that should have been served for road traffic offences were not carried through. It was a widespread problem and in some districts there were 50 times as many terminations as in other districts in the State. It was a major issue. We have seen revelations that senior journalists and one State solicitor allegedly had penalty points terminated.

The public must know all the facts. Will the Tánaiste ensure that the Committee of Public Accounts can do its work with the evidence it has and reveal the full facts of what was a scandal? Thanks to the whistleblowers, such events should not be repeated, as there are now clear directives to all gardaí concerning the termination of penalty points and the framework in which gardaí operate. Will the Tánaiste stand by the whistleblowers and protect them from this latest assault?

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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Another cover-up.

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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I have not had notice of the question and there is a level of detail in it about which I am not briefed. As I understand it, the Comptroller and Auditor General's report goes to the Committee of Public Accounts, and as far as the Government is concerned, that committee is free to do its job; we do not and will not seek to influence how it does its work. The Minister for Justice and Equality takes very seriously the allegations made, and they will have to be fully investigated.

It is fair to say that the Government has made its position very clear on whistleblowers. We introduced legislation for the first time in the history of the State to protect whistleblowers and prevent them from being discriminated against or dismissed from their employment. We are committed to the legislation which passed in the Seanad yesterday. Our position on whistleblowers could not be clearer. This is the first Government that has introduced legislation to protect whistleblowers so that people in the public service who become aware of any wrongdoing can bring it to the attention of the appropriate authorities, have it investigated and be sure there will not be recrimination against them.

As far as the report of the Comptroller and Auditor General is concerned, that is a matter for the Committee of Public Accounts and the Government supports the committee in the role it has to exercise in dealing with the report.

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal North East, Sinn Fein)
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I spoke to one of the whistleblowers this morning and he advised me that they were encouraged in correspondence by the Minister for Justice and Equality to bring all the evidence they have into the public domain and to the appropriate mechanisms within the State. The whistleblower has given the dossier of evidence he has to the Chairman of the Committee of Public Accounts. The Chairman would be prevented from doing his job if the Garda Commissioner demands the return of those files.

Deputies:

Hear, hear.

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal North East, Sinn Fein)
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I acknowledge the whistleblower legislation that is being progressed and that the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Howlin, is taking the lead in that regard. I also acknowledge that it was a commitment in the programme for Government. One could ask what message we are sending to potential whistleblowers. Let us imagine if people within the financial services sector had shouted stop. One could ask whether we would have the current crisis if legislation had been in place for such people.

In this case we have two very brave men, one of whom has had to leave the force, the other one who is thinking about leaving every day, who are under severe pressure for taking a stand and changing a system that was demonstrably wrong, as was proven conclusively by the Comptroller and Auditor General. Will the Tánaiste stand by the two whistleblowers and ensure that the evidence they have courageously given to the Chairman of the Committee of Public Accounts is fully examined by the committee and all the facts and lessons will be learned? Will he also give the legislation that is coming through the best chance to be a real success in the future?

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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It should not come as a surprise to anybody that the Minister for Justice and Equality would encourage whistleblowers or people who have information to bring it to attention. That is what he has done.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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The Minister could have blown the whistle on himself.

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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An investigation is being carried out. As I understand it there is a report from the Comptroller and Auditor General and the matter is before the Committee of Public Accounts. It is the Government’s view that the Committee of Public Accounts should do its job and we support the committee in that regard.

We are in the process of bringing legislation forward on whistleblowers. The whistleblower legislation has passed in the Seanad and it will come before this House. As I understand it, the Bill extends the persons to whom information may be brought to their attention to include Members of the Dáil and Seanad. There should not be wrongdoing. Perhaps if we had legislation such as this in the past some of the wrongdoing that has taken place, to which Deputy Mac Lochlainn referred, would not have taken place. It is appropriate that the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Howlin, is leading for the Government on the legislation because there are few people in this House who understand the situation as well as he does. In his case, information was brought to him about wrongdoing. He did not come to the House and make wild allegations but he sought to bring the information to the attention of the then Minister for Justice and ended up in the courts for his trouble. He was at considerable risk as a result of the entire process. We will now have whistleblowers legislation which will protect whistleblowers so that if people see something being done that is wrong they can bring it to attention and have it addressed. I look forward to seeing the Committee of Public Accounts doing its work on the report it has before it from the Comptroller and Auditor General.

Stephen Donnelly (Wicklow, Independent)
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A woman was charged in court yesterday with the crime of assisting the suicide of a multiple sclerosis sufferer. The charge comes under section 2 of the Criminal Law (Suicide) Act 1993 and it carries a penalty of up to 14 years in prison. It is the first court case of its kind in Ireland and it is being watched very closely by a constituent of mine, Marie Fleming. Marie has lived with multiple sclerosis for 35 years. The Tánaiste is aware that earlier this year Marie and her partner Tom Curran went to the Supreme Court to challenge the constitutionality of the 1993 Act. The court did not find it to be unconstitutional, but it was stated that nothing in the judgment should be taken as necessarily implying that it would not be open to the State, in the event that the Oireachtas was satisfied that measures with appropriate safeguards could be introduced, to legislate to deal with a case such as the appellant.

What of the appellant? I spoke with Tom this morning and he said that Marie’s condition has worsened since the Supreme Court case. He told me that Marie is now completely immobile, other than her mouth. He said she is in constant pain and that the last time they tried to adjust her pain medication to deal with the increase in pain she lapsed into a coma so they cannot do that anymore. Marie’s ability to swallow is getting worse, making it increasingly difficult for her to eat. Tom said that Marie wants to live and that she has a lot of reasons to live, but her ability to eat may deteriorate and Marie has said she is adamant she will not use artificial feeding. In that case, under the current legislation Marie Fleming would starve to death. I asked Tom this morning what question Marie would put to the Tánaiste and to all of us in the Oireachtas. He told me that she would ask us the following: “Come and live my life for 24 hours and see if you think helping me to die should be a crime. Come and spend 24 hours in my house and see what you think.” He said Marie would ask for all of us to protect her family, that she would ask us in the Oireachtas to change the law so that she could die on her own terms without the threat of Tom Curran spending 14 years in prison.

When I raised the matter with the Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Shatter, earlier this year he told me that the Government would not consider changing the law as he is obliged to have regard to the wider public interest. My question is a very simple one. Does the Tánaiste believe that Tom Curran, Marie’s partner, should face the threat, as is the case under current legislation, of 14 years in prison for assisting Marie to die if she so chooses in the future?

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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First, I am conscious that there is a case currently before the courts on what is known as assisted suicide. Deputy Donnelly will appreciate that while the case is before the courts I cannot comment on it nor should any Member of the House. Perhaps it is best that the case would conclude before we as legislators have a discussion on assisted suicide.

I met with Tom Curran after the Marie Fleming case. Deputy Donnelly asked me a straight question. It is my view that as legislators we should address the issue in the House. It is a difficult issue. I have enormous sympathy for the situation in which Tom and Marie find themselves. There is no simple answer. When we come to look at the matter in terms of legislation it will not be a simple, straightforward issue. There is a range of ethical, legal and other issues associated with this topic. We should address the topic collectively as legislators. It should not be a Government and Opposition type of issue. We should address it first as human beings and then as legislators. We should approach it by putting ourselves in the situation that Tom and Marie are in.

We should address it very honestly. One must consider what is opened up if what is now known as assisted suicide is legislated for. These are obviously some of the considerations. They are considerations on which the Minister for Justice and Equality and his Department will inevitably seek legal advice. This is a matter we need to address. I suggest that once the present court case is over, we should find a way collectively, perhaps through one of the Oireachtas committees, of having the issue dealt with in a non-partisan way. The issue requires to be dealt with legislatively. We have seen the Supreme Court judgment and I read it at the time I met Tom. The straight answer to Deputy Donnelly's question is that I do believe we should deal with this as legislators.

Stephen Donnelly (Wicklow, Independent)
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I agree with virtually everything the Tánaiste said. It is a complex issue that the Oireachtas needs to address. The Tánaiste is very familiar with the case and will know, therefore, that both Tom and Marie have asked that guidelines, issued by the DPP, be put in place, probably with legislative backup from the Oireachtas. The DPP could provide guidance on what is considered a qualifying case where a penalty would not apply. The UK DPP has such guidelines already in place. We need them here very quickly.

I agree that we cannot talk about the current case. However, we should be able to debate this subject while the case is proceeding. We have no idea how long it will take. It is the first case of its kind in the country and could take a very long time. I and, I am sure, the Tánaiste would hate to have to meet anyone in Tom Curran's circumstances to explain we were not able to change the law in time.

As a reasonable input to any Oireachtas debate, an expert report might be very useful. It seems an expert report could be produced quickly and in a way that would not interfere with the current case before the courts. I ask the Tánaiste to consider commissioning an expert report, to be concluded reasonably quickly, that we in the Oireachtas could use to inform our debate on changing the legislation on this matter as soon as possible.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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I remind Members that, under Standing Order 57, there is an obligation to refrain from comment that might affect proceedings in progress.

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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As I have said, we cannot discuss the case in progress. The Deputy mentioned DPP guidelines. The DPP is entirely independent and we respect that. The Deputy suggested a way should be found in which to have an expert report compiled on this issue. It is a very positive suggestion and one that I will discuss with my Government colleagues.