Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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10. To ask the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs her response to the taking into care, and subsequent early return to their families, of children from Roma families in Dublin and Athlone; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [48045/13]

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I wish to ask the Minister for an update on the recent disturbing cases where children from Roma families in Dublin and Athlone were taken into care. Has the Minister received the HSE report or the report of the Garda Commissioner? Is she in a position to confirm that the Ombudsman for Children has received both reports? Is Ms Logan's inquiry under way? Is she directly involved in this exercise now and when will she report her findings and recommendations?

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy refers to the two cases of Roma children who, following Garda action, were removed under section 12 of the Child Care Act 1991 and provided with foster care immediately while investigations took place. This has clearly been an extremely distressing situation for the families concerned.

In the first instance I have asked Mr. Gordon Jeyes, the national director of HSE children and family services, to ensure all possible supports are made available to the families from statutory or voluntary groups should they wish to avail of them.

The use of section 12 is a power of the An Garda Síochána which is used in very particular circumstances. The Deputy will be familiar with the Child Care Act and the clear directions which are given therein. By its nature, it is an exceptionally used power to secure the safety of children. Under section 12 a member of An Garda Síochána takes such action when they have “reasonable grounds for believing that there is an immediate and serious risk to the health or welfare of a child”.

Child protection is a complex and sensitive issue. An Garda Síochána and the HSE are often required by law to deal with very complex situations and to make immediate decisions when dealing with concerns which come to their attention. It is important to review such incidences to ensure that practices and procedures are in line with best practice.

My colleague, the Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Shatter, and I felt that there should be examination of the involvement of An Garda Síochána and the HSE in these two cases. In this regard, I have asked Mr. Gordon Jeyes to provide me with a report and the Minister, Deputy Shatter, has also requested a report from An Garda Síochána. The Ombudsman for Children, Ms Emily Logan, has initiated an investigation in relation to these cases and has also agreed to undertake an investigation of An Garda Síochána's actions under section 42 of the Criminal Justice Act 2007 and under the Ombudsman for Children Act 2002.

I can confirm that I have received the reports for each of the cases from HSE children and family services but I have not yet received the Garda Commissioner's report. The report I have received was referred immediately to the Ombudsman for Children, Ms Emily Logan, for consideration. The Ombudsman for Children is an independent statutory authority and will independently assess the actions of the HSE.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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The remainder of the Minister's reply will appear in the official report.

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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May I conclude by saying-----

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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If I allow the Minister to run over time we will not reach the other questions.

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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In respecting the independent investigations of the Ombudsman for Children, it would be wrong of me to make further comment.

Additional information not give on the floor of the House

I look forward to the conclusion of the process and to addressing the independent findings of the Ombudsman for Children, once she reports on her investigations.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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What happened in these cases is a far cry from what we expect from our State child care and support services. Everybody is clearly of this view. Under the Child Care Act 1991 the Garda Síochána must, as referred to by the Minister, have reasonable grounds to believe there is an immediate and serious risk. I am disappointed to hear that the Minister has not yet received a copy of the Garda report, which is referred to in some detail in the media. The Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Shatter, has received the report and was able to elucidate on it. I believe the Minister, Deputy Fitzgerald, should seek receipt of the report as a matter of urgency. It is important that the HSE and Garda Síochána reports are looked at together.

I am anxious to know the reasonable grounds on which it was believed that the children in these cases were at risk or in danger. These are serious questions. I understand there were other children involved in one, if not both, cases. Why were those children not taken into care? Why were only those children who had a particular hair or eye colour as the case might be taken into care? While I agree that we must await the report and recommendations of the Ombudsman for Children, Ms Emily Logan, we must not delay in making it clear to those who are responsible at the coalface of dealing with cases such as this that the required test in this particular instance could have been undertaken without taking the children from their homes and parents. What immediate steps has the Minister taken to ensure there will be no recurrence of such dreadful cases as these?

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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We have asked for an independent report. It would not be appropriate to be deciding on the outcome or to make any references to what actually happened until such time as that report has been received. Many people are jumping to conclusions. I do not know how those conclusions will be dealt with by the Ombudsman for Children. We do not know precisely what she will come up with. We do not know the details that led to influencing the Garda Síochána or social workers. We must respect the independent investigation. The Ombudsman for Children, Ms Emily Logan, is well respected. It will be worthwhile awaiting her report, following which it will be acted upon.

The Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Shatter, is still drawing up the terms of reference required to allow the Ombudsman for Children to investigate the Garda Síochána, which is a new power for her. This work will be concluded within a few days. I have no doubt I shall shortly receive the report from the Garda Commissioner via the Minister for Justice and Equality. Neither the Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Shatter, nor I have commented at all. I have noted the media reports but neither I nor the Minister, Deputy Shatter, have spoken about these cases and will not be speaking in detail about them pending the outcome of the investigation by the Ombudsman for Children.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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That is not the case.

The Minister for Justice and Equality has indicated to the media that the confidential Garda report into the seizure of two Roma children from their parents shows they acted in good faith. The preparation of the report continues, but the issue is in the media and it is not good enough, because of the horrors involved in this instance, to say that we will do absolutely nothing until such time as Emily Logan reports. I am doubly concerned because this is the fourth week after these dreadful events were first revealed and the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs is telling me that the terms of reference are being drawn up and have yet to be presented to the Ombudsman for Children. This dillydallying is simply unacceptable. This is a very worrying situation for many people and it requires more expeditious address than the Minister's responses are indicating. When will those terms of reference be presented? Will Ms Logan's report have a timeframe so that there will be no further undue delay? Having argued that the Ombudsman for Children should be brought in as the independent person responsible, I have every confidence that the Minister will do the right job and make the right recommendations, but I do not want everything parked in the meantime.

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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The Ombudsman has the terms of reference as far as the inquiry into the HSE is concerned and she can clearly get on with that element of the report. That is covered by the Ombudsman for Children Act 2002, so there should be no delay with it. I am merely quoting from the Minister for Justice and Equality that on receipt of the report from the Garda Commissioner, he wanted to draw up the terms of reference to ensure that they were appropriate and that he had the opportunity to study the reports which had been submitted to him. He said the terms of reference would be finalised within the coming days. There is absolutely no delay. Both reports have been submitted within the two week timeframe that was agreed. My report has gone to the Ombudsman for Children and I have no doubt she will receive the report from the Garda Commissioner very shortly, as well as the terms of reference from the Minister for Justice and Equality.

For many decades in this country there was a denial about the suffering of children. Many people turned a blind eye and it can be difficult to get the balance right for the front-line workers when they are in these situations. We certainly do not want the community, gardaí, social workers or anybody else turning a blind eye to concerns about children. I am sure the Deputy agrees that we do not want to return to that situation, but it is important that we examine precisely what happened in these two cases. We will have an independent investigation by the Ombudsman for Children, which is the right thing to do.