Niall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

61. To ask the Minister for Justice and Equality the timeframe for the completion and publication of the investigation into the removal of two children from members of an ethnic minority; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [46615/13]

Niall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The question is based on the recent taking into care by the Garda Síochána of children in Athlone and Tallaght.

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is important to ascertain what lessons can be learned from these events. For that reason, I requested a full report from the Garda Síochána and I expect it to be delivered to me by Friday, 8 November. The Minister for Children and Youth Affairs has similarly requested a full report from the HSE on the matter and it is expected to be delivered to her within the same timescale. The Minister for Children and Youth Affairs and I have requested the Ombudsman for Children, Emily Logan, to carry out an examination of the matter. The Minister for Children and Youth Affairs and I have confirmed to the Ombudsman that we will provide the two reports requested from the Garda Síochána and the HSE upon their receipt on 8 November.

In order to ensure that the Ombudsman for Children is in a position to comprehensively and independently address all issues arising out of these events in so far as An Garda Síochána is concerned, I have already announced my proposal to appoint her, in accordance with section 42 of the Garda Síochána Act 2005 as amended by section 42 of the Criminal Justice Act 2007, to conduct an inquiry. This is intended to ensure that she has sufficient powers to carry out an inquiry and is in a legal position to access all information that she may require from An Garda Síochána. She is already vested with legal powers in respect of any engagement she may undertake arising out of these matters with the HSE.

I am not in a position to inform the Deputy of the exact timeframe for the completion of the Ombudsman for Children's report. The Deputy will appreciate that the Ombudsman for Children will be carrying out an independent investigation and will take the time she believes she needs to ensure that her investigation is comprehensive so that her report can address these matters fully to her satisfaction. Upon the completion of this important task I look forward to receiving from her a detailed report containing such observations and recommendations as she may make. I believe this is an appropriate response to the issues that have been raised and I am grateful to the Ombudsman for Children for agreeing to undertake this task.

Child protection cases can, of their nature, involve complex and difficult choices. It is important now that an appropriate period of time be allocated to allow this process to take place and that people do not prejudge its outcome.

Additional information not given on the floor of the House

It is also important that we do not undermine faith in the child protection services. Of course people should report to the authorities any reasonable concerns they have about the safety of children. However, in seeking to ensure that the welfare of children is safeguarded and that every child in this State is afforded, where necessary, the protection of the State, it is important that no group or minority community is singled out for unwarranted attention, or indeed suspicion, in child protection issues.

Niall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We all agree it was difficult in this situation for An Garda Síochána to get the balance right. Obviously, protecting vulnerable children and children at risk is a priority for all of us, but we also have to recognise people's basic human rights. As I stated in my introduction, there were two cases, in Athlone and Tallaght.

It must be pointed out that there are also data protection issues, because those children were no sooner taken into care than it was fully across the media. I ask the Minister whether he has contacted the Data Protection Commissioner in that regard. He might comment on the matter.

For me it is not about the allocation of blame, but there must be proper accountability, given that there is impending legal action or that it has been flagged.

The Minister stated that he is awaiting the Garda Commissioner's report, which I believe he will receive on Friday next. Specifically, that report needs to spell out what was the immediate risk based on which An Garda Síochána engaged section 12 of the 1991 Child Care Act, why the HSE was not asked to conduct an assessment and why other children in the same locations from the same community were not taken.

The Minister stated that he had asked the Ombudsman for Children, Ms Emily Logan, to produce a report. Why has he not tied in the Garda Síochána Ombudsman to conduct a joint report, given that office's expertise in investigating the activities of An Garda Síochána? Both offices have dovetailed on previous assignments.

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I have not been in contact with the Data Protection Commissioner. It is a matter for him if he wants to investigate an issue. However, I agree with the Deputy that it is a matter of concern that these matters concerning two children appeared in newspapers in the context of an issue that, under the child care legislation, should be dealt with confidentially. That is one of the matters that I will be asking the Ombudsman for Children to look into.

The purpose of asking the Ombudsman for Children to engage with this matter is that, essentially, this relates to child care and also to the question asked by the Deputy - that is, the immediate risk to the children which warranted the invocation of section 12 of the Child Care Act 1991. The Garda Ombudsman Commission would normally investigate allegations of Garda misconduct. This concerns actions taken in respect of two particular children, the appropriateness of the actions, the obligation on An Garda Síochána to protect the welfare of children and the powers the Garda exercises under section 12 of the Child Care Act. I do not want in any way to prejudge the consideration of the Ombudsman for Children but I anticipate that whatever report she makes will be published and will be available for people to consider and comment on, and if there are any recommendations arising from her report they will be taken with great seriousness.

Niall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It merits consideration by the Minister and his Department to complete such an investigation in the first instance. Serious consideration should be given to a joint assignment by the said two ombudsmen, Ms Emily Logan and the Garda Ombudsman. The Garda Ombudsman has a lot of experience in dealing in detail with investigations into An Garda Síochána. I do not wish to attribute blame, but there is a lot of disquiet in the community about what happened. We all recognise that the Garda must try to get the correct balance to protect vulnerable children.

In as much as possible within the constraints of the current issue, I ask the Minister to describe the particular advice he may have received from the Attorney General on the impact on any child protection legislation. Has the Minister discussed the matter with the Attorney General and the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs? Does he intend to amend child protection legislation?

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Under section 42 of the Criminal Justice Act 2007, the Ombudsman for Children will have all the powers she requires to fully and properly look into this matter. I know it is also of concern to the Deputy that we protect the welfare of children. We could swap a whole range of questions on which we would agree that answers were needed. Was it in the interests of the welfare of these children that this action be taken? What was the immediate risk to their safety that resulted in a judgment that the action be taken? What was the connection in the context of each of the cases between An Garda Síochána and relevant HSE personnel? Were relevant HSE personnel available to An Garda Síochána? In this context, the Deputy needs to understand - I know he is aware of the fact - that this provision, section 12 of the Child Care Act 1991, has been utilised on many occasions to provide immediate protection for children whose safety is at risk. It is very important that members of the public make these reports if they genuinely believe a child's safety is at risk. It often falls on the shoulders of members of the Garda force in a very short time to have to make judgments on whether children will be taken into temporary care. These matters end up being dealt with by the District Court at Children Court level, which is appropriate. However, I will not prejudge any aspect of this matter. It may well be more a matter of judgments supplied and procedures than there being a frailty in section 12 of the Child Care Act 1991. I will not prejudge whether any amendment is required to that Act. I will await the Garda's report which I will furnish to the Ombudsman for Children. The Minister for Children and Youth Affairs, Deputy Frances Fitzgerald, will furnish the HSE's report. We will then consider the outcome of that report.