John Halligan (Waterford, Independent)
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5. To ask the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform the number of public sector workers currently employed here; the number of job losses which will be seen up to the end of 2015; his views on whether his plan to further reduce the numbers of public service workers is flawed and will ultimately result in already stretched Departments reaching breaking point; his views on whether having a public service that currently barely functions having no cover for either sick leave or maternity leave seriously affects the service it provides; his views on whether the backlogs in various Departments are accumulating as a direct result of the cutbacks and reduced staffing levels; will he commit to putting in place an alternative strategy to reach the €1 billion in spending he hopes to achieve by 2015; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [42740/13]

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Public service numbers stood at 290,400 at the end of 2012. That number should have decreased to 282,500 by 2015, in line with the target set by the Government. This means that between now and 2015, the number employed in the public service will fall in net terms by a further 2.7%. I anticipate that this will mostly be achieved through natural retirement across the service, while allowing for recruitment in areas where that is authorised. The 282,500 target will mark a 12% reduction in the size of the public service since the peak value of 320,000 in 2008.

The Government's policy on reducing the size of the public service is one of its key broader reform agenda items. It needs to be understood in the context of two main drivers. First, there is undeniably a need to repair the public finances. Second, we need to improve and catch up with international best practice in how public services are delivered. This is why through reform initiatives we are building on existing good practices and addressing areas where there are too many agencies, too much duplication, not enough automation, not enough use of e-technologies, not enough shared services, poor practices and sub-optimal structures. This transition is difficult. It is difficult to shed staff while maintaining service levels and rolling out new services, but it is necessary.

To help us safeguard our core public services, we will deliver an unprecedented increase in productivity across the public service through the Haddington Road agreement, which is currently under way. We will provide for almost 15 million additional working hours and a range of other reforms and efficiencies agreed by the public sector unions. One of the main benefits of these additional hours is that they will allow public service management to maintain services with fewer staff. We have already achieved real and tangible progress in areas such as cost reduction, improving efficiency and enhancing service delivery. The roll-out of reform against a backdrop of reduced numbers has produced challenges. I compliment all those in the public service who have risen to the challenge.

Additional information not given on the floor of the House.

In so far as possible, front-line services have been protected. In parallel, there has been real and permanent reform of service delivery models to the benefit of citizens and businesses. Earlier this year, we launched the Civil Service human resources and pensions shared services centre. It serves over 15,000 employees across 13 organisations. When it is fully operational, it will lead to substantial savings estimated at €12.5 million annually, with a reduction of 17% in staff numbers in human resources across the Civil Service. We have allowed for some targeted recruitment into priority areas, particularly health and education, while continuing to reduce the size of the public service overall. Redeployment has been an important enabler of this managed reduction of public service numbers. Since 2010, more than 10,000 surplus staff have been redeployed into priority areas. With regard to alternative strategies to achieve savings, I remind the Deputy that the cost of running the public service in Ireland accounts for some 36% of total Government expenditure. It would be impossible to put the public finances back onto a sustainable footing without addressing this sizable element of the cost base.

John Halligan (Waterford, Independent)
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I acknowledge that the Government is adamant that the downsizing of the public service has saved the country a great deal of money, despite its catastrophic impact on public services. Many people are not buying the Government's line that the reduction of almost 30,000 in public service numbers since 2008 is a success story. Would the Minister agree that the exodus from the public service has hit the front line hardest and has resulted in a disastrous draining of knowledge, skills, experience and expertise that has been developed over many years? I will give two examples. As a result of the loss of almost 5,000 posts in the health service, some 160,000 people have been on Waterford Regional Hospital's waiting list for up to 12 months, some 46,000 people have been on the list for over a year and some 570 patients have been on the list for more than four years. In the education sector, approximately 400 posts are currently being filled by teaching staff who are in receipt of pension payments even though many newly qualified teachers are being forced to emigrate. Can the Minister clarify whether the Cabinet has an actual strategy to deal with the impact on services of these job losses? If there is such a strategy, everybody would be pleased to hear about it. The Minister mentioned the delivery of services. I have given two examples - in the health and education systems - of services that are not being delivered.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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The Deputy is wrong.

John Halligan (Waterford, Independent)
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These are facts.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Many more people are being treated in the health service this year than ever before. We have 80,000 more pupils being taught in our schools. There are 900 more teachers this year. We can be fanciful about things and play politics with them, but that is the reality.

John Halligan (Waterford, Independent)
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These are the Government's figures. They are not my figures.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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We are trying to create a new type of public service. It is difficult to do so because there is a resistance to change. A great deal of work that used to be done at clerical officer level, for example, is no longer required because many people now do their own direct inputting. We are creating a different type of public service, which is much more in tune with the needs of a modern, 21st century economy. There have been no compulsory redundancies since we came into office. The Deputy is wrong when he speaks about a brain drain. The people who have gone were approaching retirement, by and large. They went to ensure they could retire at the pre-cut level of salary. There have been no compulsory redundancies. Nobody has been forced out. The specific point the Deputy made about teachers is valid. The Minister for Education and Skills has issued a directive on this matter. It was to be incorporated in law and I think it should be. It is a matter of practice on the ground. Retired teachers should not be recruited to fill substitution posts. Those posts should be filled from a panel of unemployed teachers. The Minister, Deputy Quinn, is determined to achieve that objective.

John Halligan (Waterford, Independent)
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I am not arguing that there is no need to make savings. Everyone in opposition knows that public sector reform must happen. It would be folly for us to think otherwise. The persistent slashing of public sector members will not solve the State's economic problems. I would like to mention an interesting impact study that was published by the ESRI recently on the impact of fiscal cuts on the general Government debt. The ESRI found that reducing the number of public service employees actually increases the debt. I do not know if the Minister is familiar with the study, which the ESRI released recently. According to the ESRI study, the only real long-term reduction in the debt happens because of emigration. I have cited the health and education services as examples of quality not increasing as a result of cuts. Like many others, I accept that we need to deal with the public service by making it more efficient. I do not know whether everybody in opposition acknowledges that, but I am prepared to do so publicly. Having spoken to teachers, doctors and nurses who work on the front line, I know they do not see a good end result.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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As the Deputy knows, no teachers have been made redundant. Teachers who retire are replaced, which means there are more teachers now than ever before.

John Halligan (Waterford, Independent)
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There are more pupils.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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The pupil-teacher ratio is fixed. If there are more pupils, there are more teachers. The fact is that there are 900 additional teachers this year. The Deputy has spoken about slashing public services. I reiterate that there have been no compulsory redundancies. In such circumstances, how can he say there has been slashing? Everybody who has left has retired naturally or has chosen to leave. Nobody has been forced out. There has been no slashing in this country, unlike other countries that have faced the economic pressures and crises we have faced. We have had none of what happened in Spain or Greece. We have maintained and increased the level of efficiency in the public service with the co-operation of public servants, to their great credit. I acknowledge that they have endured reductions in pay rates, increased hours and more pressure. They are to be lauded and congratulated for that. When we get beyond this crisis, we will have a better public service that is more in tune with modernity. We will be able to grow the public service again to meet the new demands of a different type of society.