Dáil debates

Thursday, 3 October 2013

Topical Issue Debate

Local Authority Staff Issues

4:20 pm

Photo of Eric ByrneEric Byrne (Dublin South Central, Labour)
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I thank the Minister for his presence. What we seek is contained in the matter submitted for debate, which is "the need for an ongoing engagement between local development company workers and the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government to address issues and concerns raised by the proposed alignment of local government". That is very straightforward and all I seek from the Minister is a commitment that the coalface workers at community development level will be incorporated into the debate as equal participants to those who are currently debating the future alignment.

This is a very important sector. For example, approximately 7,500 people are engaged in the Tús programme, and the Leader and local development programme have 2,600 people. In other words, approximately 10,000 people are engaged in the sector. The people who work alongside these people - who conceive, prepare and supervise the programmes - are not party to the debate on alignment. We know the local area partnership boards have managers who are aligned to the Irish Local Development Network, ILDN, group, and they have representation, which is only correct. I seek a commitment that the socioeconomic committees, for example, will have an implementation group incorporating the voice and influence of workers who feel rather vulnerable because of a move away from the past and local development boards being subsumed by local area boards. Local authorities will subsume those bodies again.

The workers are feeling rather vulnerable because they do not know what the future holds, so will the Minister guarantee that the worker's voice will be given equal status in the implementation group?

Photo of Joan CollinsJoan Collins (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Following from Deputy Byrne's comments, the alignment process is a different scenario, and we are not really here to debate the merits or otherwise of that. We are demanding that the workers' voices be heard because they have continuously tried to contact the Minister: union members met representatives of the Department on 24 September to try to get meaningful negotiations rather than just being told what is to happen.

The uncertainty for these workers created by the process has made it difficult for them. In some local authorities, there has already been movement on the alignment process, with workers in local development companies asked to work with the local authorities to map work; they are refusing to work with the local authorities. I support such action as these people need to know what the future holds. These people have worked for up to 20 years in this area, which is at the coal face of communities. They deal on a daily basis with the matters affecting communities in the likes of Crumlin, Bluebell and the canal area. They know what is happening and they should be involved in negotiations on what the future holds for the alignment process.

How would the Minister feel if the Taoiseach was to create a new Department that could include parts of the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government but that excluded the Minister?

Photo of Phil HoganPhil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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He probably does that on a regular basis.

Photo of Joan CollinsJoan Collins (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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We know the Minister is not legally obliged to speak to workers but he should do so. There are 50 local development companies and there is much work in the area. As a broad church of Deputies, we appeal to the Minister, and I know many of the Minister's party members have signed the petition for the Minister to respect the workers.

Photo of Phil HoganPhil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I thank Deputies Byrne and Collins for raising the matter and allowing me to clarify some of the issues. Last October, the Government approved a new programme for effective local government entitled Putting People First, which included recommendations by an expert alignment steering group for enhancing alignment between local government and local communities. The steering group made a number of recommendations aimed at improving co-ordination across the range of local publicly-funded programmes, achieving greater efficiency and effectiveness in the delivery of those programmes and, most importantly, improving the delivery of services to the people we all represent, the citizens and communities. I established a working group to assist and advise my Department on the implementation of the recommendations, and this working group comprises representatives of the City and County Managers Association, the Irish Local Development Network and Pobal. It is supported in its work by my Department.

As well as the ongoing work of this group, both I and my Department have had engagements with representatives of the local development and community and voluntary sectors regarding alignment and other issues of common interest. I am glad Deputy Collins acknowledged that my officials met representatives of the worker trade unions recently to discuss a number of issues at my request. I will not meet representatives of every local community group around the country as I have representatives to do so. I know the Deputy is not advocating that. The Irish Local Development Network is the representative body for the 50 local development companies throughout the country and has three places on the working group. It is the responsibility of these representatives to consult with their nominating body, the staff in the local development companies and other relevant stakeholders, as necessary, as part of this process.

I remind the Deputies that the local development companies are private independent companies with their own boards of management. I am trying to change this to ensure the local development companies and the workers can be in a better position to deliver those services in future; this is in the face of declining public funds and support through European Union programmes. My Department has no role in the internal operations of the companies and, accordingly, does not have a role in staff or employment matters. These issues are primarily a matter for the board of each company, as the employer, to manage.

The strengths of the local development companies in service planning and delivery were recognised in the final report of the alignment steering group and it is envisaged that they will have a continuing role in this regard. We will get better outcomes and value for money by better collaboration, which is why I am establishing local community development committees in each local authority area. These committees will provide a broader-based collaboration than we have had to date, and it is not good enough for people to operate in isolation, either in local government or in the community. We want to bring these people together to achieve greater benefit for the people we are trying to serve, the citizens.

My vision is for a more integrated approach to local development, with local development bodies operating in a complimentary and collaborative approach with a reformed local government system. These new arrangements will place local development structures on a more sustainable footing, eliminate unnecessary duplication and achieve better value for money. In the context of the tightening budgetary position, it is particularly important that we operate as efficiently as possible to ensure the continued delivery of quality front-line services to the community.

An alignment will not drive cuts to programme funding; rather, it will help sustain local community development services through more efficient, effective and joined-up structures. It will give local authorities, as the democratically elected level of government closest to the people, a greater role in the planning, oversight and governance of local development funding.

I will ensure the community and voluntary sector and the people the Deputies referred to will have full engagement in the process once we have completed the round with the working group. This will take place very shortly. The working group will come to its conclusions in the next two or three weeks and then I can report back to the Deputies on the next stage of the process, to assure workers we will continue to have a very strong community and local government partnership approach to the delivery of services to the people.

4:30 pm

Photo of Eric ByrneEric Byrne (Dublin South Central, Labour)
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I welcome the contribution of the Minister. However, he has not satisfied me as to our demands. They are not really private-----

Photo of Phil HoganPhil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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They are private.

Photo of Eric ByrneEric Byrne (Dublin South Central, Labour)
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Perhaps, in law, they are but they are basically community-led projects. The worry I have is that the Minister is deferring to the companies and has given the ILDN the negotiation rights on behalf of the workers of the partnerships. Let us call spade a spade. On the ground, at the coalface of poverty, alienation and hardship, people at community level know how to tap into this and to provide the programmes to assist people in development. If they are excluded, it becomes a bureaucratic structure. I must ask if the Minister believes in social partnership. The trade union movement and SIPTU are part of the social partnership structure. Why would the Minister want to exclude the union representing the body of men and women of the community and voluntary sector in the structures?

Photo of Joan CollinsJoan Collins (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Exactly. Why would the Minister want to exclude a union representing the workers at the coalface? From talking to workers on the ground, I know managers do not have a hand-to-hand approach in the communities. They see them once or twice a year when they call in to see how operations are working. The union representation, SIPTU, should not be locked out of these negotiations. It is not good enough for the Minister to refer to the situation in three weeks time, when much negotiation has already been done and the workers have not been involved in it. Already, local authorities are going to the community development workers and saying that they must work hand-in-hand with local authorities to map out the work they do. That should not be done before the workers have an opportunity to be part of negotiations rather than being told what is happening. The Minister should support the workers and I expect him, as Minister, to do so.

Photo of Phil HoganPhil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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To clarify, the working group is not about union negotiations between workers and a private company employer. The working group is about the structures that will be put in place to deliver for the people and the communities. That is what I am interested in. What is the best way of ensuring we have robust structures to deliver best for the people? The union negotiations with workers in these community companies involve private companies. My officials met SIPTU recently this and brought it up to date on these matters. In a couple of weeks time, we will know the structures and we will have further discussions with unions. I am surprised that Deputy Joan Collins, who has strong views about public versus private companies, is not supporting me on this occasion in respect of these private companies. I want public companies accountable to the democratically elected people in local government and to work together to deliver for the people she wants to represent.