Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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The Government and all of us share the aim of creating more jobs and resolving the unemployment crisis. It is the collective aim of the Deputies from every party in this House and the Independent Deputies. In the 2011 mini-budget, the Minister, Deputy Noonan, announced a reduction in the VAT rate from 13.5% to 9% as part of an initiative aimed at creating jobs in the hospitality industry. Various figures point to the success of this initiative. According to the Restaurants Association of Ireland, up to 9,000 new jobs have been created in that sector alone. The Central Statistics Office has confirmed that the level of employment in the employment, accommodation and food services sectors has increased by 13.3% since the introduction of the initiative. This equates to a net increase of 15,200 jobs in the overall hospitality and tourism industry. Everybody acknowledges that this initiative has worked. It has provided opportunities to 15,200 people who might otherwise still be on the live register or might have left the country like so many others. It has led to substantial savings in the social welfare bill and in other areas.

It is hard to believe in terms of this successful initiative that the rug is about to pulled from under an industry that is creating employment. Why would the Government consider reversing an initiative that has created so many jobs? As late as yesterday evening in this House, the Minister for Finance gave a very strong indication that he was considering its reversal. Somewhat bizarrely, he said that when he reduced the VAT rate, he had not received one representation calling on him to do so. He said it was all his own idea. I remind the House that the Government has promised to create 100,000 new jobs over its five year lifetime. During yesterday's debate, the Minister described the reduction in the VAT rate as a "pump-priming exercise". He went on to explain that notion:

The idea of pump-priming is that where something is weak, one gives it a break to make it stronger. However, when it is strong it should fend for itself.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I thank Deputy Calleary for his acknowledgement of the success of the initiative taken by the Government. We made the decision to reduce the VAT rate in this area within 100 days of coming to office, when were facing an extraordinary financial situation with no flexibility at all. We determined that we would put together a €500 million stimulus package. As we did not want to dissipate that package at the time, we decided to focus the €500 million on the hospitality sector as it could have an immediate impact on job creation. The Deputy is right when he suggests that it has been a success. We now need to focus on many other sectors. It is clear from what is going on at this week's ploughing championships that there is a sense of positivity in the agriculture sector. Other sectors of the economy are also feeling an uplift because of Government policies. There is a certain irony in the Deputy's demand for this initiative to be prolonged now, given that he and his party denounced it at the time.

Paudie Coffey (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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Yes.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Not only did they denounce the jobs stimulus plan that was announced before this Government had been in place for 100 days, but they also denounced the funding mechanism. Deputies will recall that it was funded by means of a levy on pension funds. One cannot welcome the result while denying the means.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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It is a bit like the Government cutting child benefit.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I presume Deputy Calleary is belatedly acknowledging that the decision taken by the Government within 100 days of coming to office to focus on a sectoral job creation effort that has demonstrably created at least 15,000 additional jobs, as the Deputy has admitted, was the correct policy decision at that time. Obviously everything is on the agenda in the context of the forthcoming budget. We will make the right decisions in budget 2014, as we did within 100 days of coming to office. I have no doubt that Deputy Calleary will denounce those decisions, as he did at the start of our term.

Michael Healy-Rae (Kerry South, Independent)
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That was a pitiful response.

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Minister for not answering the question. We denounced the method of funding because the pension levy was imposed not only on rich pensioners, but also on small pensioners such as those in Tara Mines in Navan.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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Hear, hear.

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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The very lowest paid pensioners had to pay. We did not denounce the initiative. Any initiative that creates jobs is welcome. I will not take a lecture from any Labour Party Minister on denouncing, given that party's record in opposition.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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Ouch.

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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In August, Fáilte Ireland published a study for the Minister, Deputy Varadkar, and the Minister of State, Deputy Ring, which said that the jobs created by the measure equated "to a benefit to the Exchequer of circa €55 million" and further estimated "that the Exchequer’s tax take on the growth in spending by overseas visitors in 2012 was worth €40 million". The study also pointed out that "the tax foregone through the implementation of the rate reduction is below" what the Minister for Finance has been saying. The Minister for Finance has suggested that this initiative has cost more than he said it would. The Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport has suggested that it has cost less than the Minister for Finance said it would. What is the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, who will be responsible for introducing the budget side of things, saying?

Michael McNamara (Clare, Labour)
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Is the Deputy in favour of the extension of this measure or against it?

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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I acknowledge that it has created jobs. We want to keep the jobs that have been created in domestically owned businesses in local communities throughout the country.

Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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We are trying to make up for the 250,000 jobs that the Deputy's party got rid of.

Barry Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Perhaps the Government will keep one promise.

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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This matter was brought to the floor of the House yesterday by Deputies Ann Phelan and Derek Nolan of the Labour Party and Deputy Brendan Griffin of Fine Gael because they want to maintain these 15,000 jobs. The Minister has an opportunity to make a similar commitment, as his backbenchers did last night.

Michael Healy-Rae (Kerry South, Independent)
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The Minister for Finance did not take much notice of them.

Willie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
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Is the Government going to stick with the policy?

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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I ask the chorus to remain quiet while people are speaking.

Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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We are being provoked, a Cheann Comhairle.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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I assume the Chair is referring particularly to the Labour Party Deputy from Clare, who is getting nervous ahead of the match on Saturday night.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I thank Deputy Calleary for praising us more forcefully and convincingly than we could. He underscored the success of this Government's sectoral strategy, which he denounced early on in our term of office.

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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I did not denounce it.

Willie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
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Is the Government going to stick with it?

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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We are pursuing the creation and maintenance of jobs as the first priority of the Government, the first priority of the forthcoming budget-----

Barry Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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That means they are going to get rid of it.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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-----and the first priority in all the decisions we will make for the remaining two and a half years of our term.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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What about the 60 jobs in the Seanad?

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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We will focus on that as we have done. The success that Deputy Calleary has outlined, in relation to the tourism sector, will be continued. While I appreciate that the Deputy does not want to take lectures, the unavoidable truth is that the last two years of his party's term of office saw the collapse of 250,000 private sector jobs.

We are now creating 3,000 new private sector jobs net per month.

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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It is about to destroy the industry creating them.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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The previous Government's strategy, which it pushed through this House, of cutting the minimum wage was the wrong one. Our strategy is not to have a low wage economy, to rush to the bottom and to think we can create jobs by pushing down people's basic wage. In the most difficult of economic times, we undid the damaging economic decision the previous Government took.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Minister is over time.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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In thanking the Deputy for his belated acknowledgment of the successful strategy being pursued by this Government, I can assure him that in the next budget we will continue to ensure that jobs continue to be created.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Yesterday was just like every other day for thousands of families struggling with mortgage distress. Some are facing eviction like the family in Kanturk in County Cork. There are many others who will be facing the same scenario. Yesterday was also the day that the Governor of the Central Bank, Professor Patrick Honohan, appeared before the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform. That meeting had a sense of the extraordinary about it. We know rightly that the public was scandalised when the Anglo Irish Bank tapes first emerged in the media. We heard at first hand the moolah men describe how they picked figures from their posteriors and how they were going down to the Central Bank arms swinging demanding a multi-billion euro bailout. Yet Professor Honohon, who is Governor of the Central Bank and the regulator, tells us that it will not forward any more information on these tapes to the Office of the Director of Corporate Enforcement or the Garda Professor Honohan then told us that neither he nor his staff have even listened to the tapes in his possession and indicated that he was not minded to do so.

Is this not incredible? On the one hand, distressed mortgage holder face arrears, possible negative equity, stress, legal letters from the banks and court appearances in many cases. Yet it seems the bankers remain untouchable. Heads, they win and tails, they win. Is the Minister satisfied with the manner in which the Central Bank and its Governor have handled the Anglo tapes affair?

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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The Deputy first raised the issue of mortgage arrears in the context of the discussion that took place yesterday between Professor Honohan and the Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform. Before I go on to the second question, I want to say that the issue of mortgage arrears is an absolute focus of Government because it is one of the deepest scars of the legacy of the collapse of the Celtic tiger. Many people are struggling desperately in mortgage arrears.

Willie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
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How much worse has it got in the past two years?

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Deputy O'Dea has a brass neck.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Could we go through the Chair please?

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I will not be distracted because the issue of mortgage arrears is too important and central to the lives of too many people for Deputy O'Dea to be making silly comments about it. He should be ashamed of his part in it. The Government has put in place a comprehensive programme of action to assist mortgage holders. The Personal Insolvency Act was signed into law last December. The Insolvency Service of Ireland has begun taking applications from 9 September. The Central Bank has set targets requiring the main mortgage lenders to offer durable solutions and has launched a framework for a pilot approach. We can give a comprehensive focus on that because we are determined that this issue will be resolved and resolved it will be. It will take time and is very complex.

In respect of the question about bankers and the Anglo Irish Bank tapes, every member of this Government and every elected Member on this side of the House was as shocked and, bluntly, as nauseated listening to those tapes as the general public was. It was characteristic of the attitude that prevailed in banking at the time. I believe it has substantially changed but there needs to be an accounting. However, I will not say anything here that would lessen the prospect of people who have verged over the edge of criminality being held accountable before the courts. The prosecution services of this State, which are entirely independent of the Government, as is right, have been working assiduously gathering the information and we all expect that there will be a conclusion that will hold people to account.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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If that obnoxious, macho attitude was characteristic of the bankers and, let's face it, the system including the political system of the time, it would also be fair to say that what is characteristic of the system today is a "Hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil" approach to mortgage distress. The Government is happy that progress is being made and the Minister stands up and gives his answer by rote. I have heard it before from his colleague, the Tánaiste. The Governor of the Central Bank comes to the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform and surprise, surprise, he sings the same song. Meanwhile back in the real world, people are still under the most enormous stress and they do not see a willingness to act and for accountability on the part of the system. They do not see those within the banking sector being held to account.

I am not asking the Minister to make comments or draw conclusions in the Dáil or elsewhere around criminal culpability in anything. I am asking him whether, when the regulator of the banks has in his possession tapes pertaining to Anglo Irish Bank, some of them become public and it appears or there is even a suggestion that there has been a ruse to fool or even defraud the State, it is not appropriate for the regulator of the bank to make sure all of the tapes are listened and scrutinised to make absolutely sure that information and material is passed on to the relevant authority? I would have thought that this was the most basic requirement of somebody who would claim to be a regulator. I not asking the Minister to make a comment on criminal culpability because he should not do that. I am asking him on behalf on the Government to say in this Chamber that it is not appropriate for the Governor to sit on his hands, that the material in his possession must be examined fully and that the outcome and materials should be passed on to the Office of the Director of Corporate Enforcement and An Garda Síochána to allow them to draw any appropriate conclusions. Let us not add to the public distress created by the system by yet again looking away from those who must be held accountable and punishing the people.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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The people of Ireland are hurting and are rightly angry. They want an accounting not some denunciation from the benches here. They want a real accounting. Those who committed criminal offences should be held to account under the law. We changed the law shortly after coming into Government to give additional powers to the prosecution authorities. I am confident that every shred of evidence they require - they are very competent people - will be available to them. They have the power to acquire it and I have every confidence that this is exactly what they have done.

I remind the Deputy that we operate courts of law under the Constitution - not courts martial. I know there are those who are more used to summary justice. We are interested in ensuring the slow, painstaking and difficult task of giving every assistance to the prosecution authorities to ensure that where there is any criminality, those people are held to account and that we do not do anything that would give any shield or comfort to people who may have committed a criminal act and allow them to escape accountability.

That is what will happen under this Administration.

Clare Daly (Dublin North, Socialist Party)
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The Minister is probably aware that yesterday there was a briefing in the House by the ESB group of unions. They represent 13,000 workers whose pension scheme is being unilaterally changed, from a defined benefit to a defined contribution scheme, along with serious funding problems whose cost is being transferred solely on to the shoulders of those workers. These people are about to join the tens of thousands of others - in the PTSB, the Irish aviation superannuation schemes, the Abbey Theatre, Waterford Glass, SR Technics, and so on, who face the prospect of being pauperised after a lifetime contributing to a pension scheme. Is it not clear that Irish society is now paying the price of an over-reliance on private pension schemes and the global capital market and that it is failing to provide for people in their latter years? There is a pensions timebomb in this country which has been ticking for some time, is getting louder and will explode. Is the Government going to stand idly by or is it going to do something about it?

The Government does not even have to struggle very hard in this regard because last week Social Justice Ireland came up with a proposal that would give it an answer to the situation and an opportunity to turn the existing policy on its head. This would start with the belief or fundamental principle that a retired citizen is entitled to the nation's gratitude and recognition of their consideration. A citizen is entitled, as of right, to a guaranteed income and standard of living upon retirement. The Minister has an opportunity to deliver this through the policy proposed by Social Justice Ireland, based on a universal pension scheme. SJI's proposal is to replace the present five or six schemes of contributory, non-contributory, widow's, etc., with a single scheme whereby a person who has reached the eligible age is entitled to a pension based on his or her residency. This would give security to all, allow people to plan for the future and get rid of the gaps that currently exist for many people, women in particular, who took time out to rear their children and in consequence have fewer contributions.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Thank you.

Clare Daly (Dublin North, Socialist Party)
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It would eliminate the contributory philosophy which puts value only on paid employment rather than on other kinds of contribution. The best thing is that it would not cost the Government anything but would save it money if it stood the present pension policy on its head and directed some of the massive tax concessions given to the wealthy into this scheme.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Thank you.

Clare Daly (Dublin North, Socialist Party)
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Will the Minister end a pension system which is based on tax reliefs that subsidise the wealthy and ensure that a philosophy which ensures that a person who is poor in his or her working life will be poor in retirement is replaced with the idea of a guaranteed, decent pension for all, on retirement?

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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Hear, hear.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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The Deputy asked a series of questions and I will try to go through them as best I can. First, she prefaced her comments with reference to the ESB pension scheme. This scheme is sound; we should acknowledge that. Changes were introduced in the scheme last year, by agreement with the workers. The new funding standards that have been set for all pension schemes have been set by the regulator, with the objective of having security of funding for pensioners into the future. The application of that new funding regime is currently being examined. That is what is taking place within the ESB

I refer to the broader pensions issue. This is an issue on which not only Ireland but all developed countries are focused. The Deputy is right in that many private sector pension schemes have taken a massive hit because of the collapse of equity values. Many of those values are beginning to recover so there is greater robustness in respect of the values of those pension schemes. However, the criteria demanded by the pension regulators are being increased to ensure there is a solvent and sustainable fund into the future. There is no question of us standing idly by. The Minister for Social Protection, Deputy Joan Burton, has been very active in examining these matters and has contributed to many debates in this Chamber. I am sure the Deputy can pursue these issues with her.

In regard to the specific proposal made by Social Justice Ireland, I and the Minister for Finance, Deputy Michael Noonan, met that organisation last week. We have heard its comprehensive set of proposals on this and a range of other issues which, as is the case with all submissions, will be taken into account very carefully.

The Deputy spoke about tax benefits to private pension funds. As she knows, the Minister, Deputy Noonan, announced in last year's budget that we are ending tax benefits to any fund or any individual once a pension of €60,000 had accrued. That is a fundamental change and legislation to enact it will shortly be introduced.

Clare Daly (Dublin North, Socialist Party)
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The Minister is correct that this is an international problem but he does not yet rule the world.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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He is getting there.

Clare Daly (Dublin North, Socialist Party)
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However, he is accountable for what goes on in this country. He has singularly failed to address the issue I posed to him, namely, the very real, costed proposal that has landed on his desk, which offers the prospect of raising living standards for retirees in this State while at the same time it saves the State money. This is an ideological question. I understand the Labour Party has lost much of its ideology but the bottom line here is that-----

Michael McCarthy (Cork South West, Labour)
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We threw the Deputy out.

Willie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
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It lost its soul.

Clare Daly (Dublin North, Socialist Party)
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-----we still have a society where billions of euro in tax relief is weighted to the wealthy, with 82% of such reliefs going to the top 20% and 56% going to the top 10% of income earners in this country. If the Minister stood that policy on its head, reduced the marginal rate of relief to the standard rate of 20%, reduced the earnings contribution cap to €75,000, or twice the average wage, and reduced the standard threshold of the fund, he could still save the State more money by introducing a universal scheme.

When the Minister departs office will the Labour Party have distinguished itself in any way from its blueshirt partners? When he was on these benches - his website still carries the sloganeering----

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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You are over time, Deputy.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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Do not get upset.

Clare Daly (Dublin North, Socialist Party)
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-----in which he stated that the Pensions Board-----

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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Bernard is getting upset too.

Clare Daly (Dublin North, Socialist Party)
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On his website, the Minister states that the last Government and the Pensions Board got it radically wrong, and that the Fianna Fáil Government of the time should immediately-----

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy, you are over your time. Please put a question.

Clare Daly (Dublin North, Socialist Party)
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Will the Minister continue to subsidise the wealthy or will he give decent rights for pensioners?

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick, Fine Gael)
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How about the people who do not pay their tax?

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I have no views on ruling the world but I thought the Deputy opposite was a traditional Wobbly, uniting the workers of the world. From the years I spent listening to her on the administrative council of the Labour Party, I know her good Trot view of that. Unfortunately, being caught in the time warp of the Sixties is of no value to us in terms of interpreting the economic crisis we now have.

Let me give the Deputy some facts. In the most difficult of economic times we have maintained the old age pension rate. One may consider the rate of €230 and compare it to that of Northern Ireland or Britain. Look at the additional benefits we provide. By any objective analysis we have protected the elderly - rightly so - from the vagaries of the awful times we have gone through.

Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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What about household and all the other benefits?

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick, Fine Gael)
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Wait until they take the leader's allowance away.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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We cannot hear.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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In terms of pension provision, we could take the line the Deputy advocates, ensure that nobody puts any private money into a pension fund and have entire dependence on the State.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Thank you.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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That is entirely unaffordable in the short term. What we are doing, for the first time, is putting a cap on the pension that can accrue with State support. I hoped, and would have thought, the Deputy might welcome that but of course she is always too busy attacking the Labour Party and the left rather than looking to attack the right and its views on what is happening.

Joe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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The words "Labour Party" and "left" should not be used in the same sentence.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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If the House would settle down we could have the Order of Business.