Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Yesterday, the Taoiseach was adamant that the Oireachtas inquiry into the collapse of the financial and banking system, under the Bill proposed by the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Brendan Howlin, would be more than adequate to hold bankers and all involved to account. We know that is not the case. No sooner were we finished yesterday than the Taoiseach's spokesperson was briefing journalists in the main newspapers that the Cabinet had been discussing the matter and was considering giving extra powers to such an inquiry via a re-run of the referendum on Oireachtas inquiries. That seems to suggest an admission on the part of the Government that the Bill of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform does not have the powers to hold bankers to account. I have put forward an alternative view: that the Tribunal of Inquiry Bill 2005, which provides for a radically different version of the tribunals we have had in the past and much of which was used in the Leveson inquiry in the UK, is a model that can hold bankers to account. People are expecting that bankers will be held to account, given the revelations in the Irish Independent tapes.

In terms of the culture and power of bankers, they have been given additional power by the Government to put pressure on people in mortgage arrears. The Government has changed legislation to give banks greater powers to repossess family homes without conditions attached. The Government has changed the code of practice in respect of how banks deal with customers and mortgage arrears. There is now no limit to the amount of contact between banks and people in mortgage arrears. I am talking to families out there in mortgage arrears who cannot put bread on the table because they are trying to meet payments.

Eric Byrne (Dublin South Central, Labour)
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Has Deputy Martin told them why?

Gerald Nash (Louth, Labour)
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Do these people understand why?

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Some 26,000 families are in the firing line when the legislation giving the power to bankers to repossess goes through the Houses.

Aodhán Ó Ríordáin (Dublin North Central, Labour)
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Let us bring back Fianna Fáil.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The tapes revealed by the Irish Independent reveal a certain culture, and the people do not trust the banks on the issue of mortgage arrears.

Dinny McGinley (Donegal South West, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Martin trusted them for long enough.

Gerald Nash (Louth, Labour)
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Deputy Martin was owned by the banks.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The people believe there should be independent oversight and there are proposals on this side of the House to have independent oversight of the banks as they deal with customers in mortgage arrears. I suggest it is now essential and it seems the Government is on the side of the banks in dealing with people in mortgage arrears. It seems the Government trusts the banks to deal with people fairly-----

Dinny McGinley (Donegal South West, Fine Gael)
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Hypocrite. Deputy Martin was there.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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-----and in an even-handed manner on mortgage arrears. It is a serious issue for people who are in arrears and under considerable pressure.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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No one can hear what anyone is saying, so I ask Members to remain quiet. A Member has asked a question and the Taoiseach does the answering, not the mob.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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Not the hecklers in the Labour Party.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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That intervention is a pathetic attempt to acquire and involve Deputy Martin in political opportunism. Deputy Martin knows the licensed regulator of the banks is the Central Bank, and the conditions and attitude have changed entirely from his time in government in terms of the operations of the Central Bank, the licensing of banks, the introduction of the personal insolvency agency, and the result of the Dunne case, but also, it has been made perfectly clear that house repossessions in this country are a last resort, as was specified by the banks. The targets set down by the Central Bank require banks to offer those in mortgage arrears or mortgage distress opportunities by the end of this quarter to find a solution to get them out of the difficulties they are in. These targets will be achieved and overseen.

The Government was of the view that we should put a referendum to the people in respect of inquiries and the authority in that regard. It was rejected by the people and we cannot argue with the people.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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They copped on.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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They should have copped on to Deputy Finian McGrath earlier.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Martin has argued with them a few times but they made a decision on the referendum and I accept the outcome of it. On a number of occasions, I said we would have a referendum in the autumn on the abolition of the Seanad and on the court of civil appeal, because of the backlog of court cases, and we will give consideration to other referendums. The question has been raised of re-running the referendum and I have not given a definitive answer to it. The Bill currently going through the House deals with the setting up of a parliamentary inquiry with the appropriate authority and facilities in the law and in the Constitution.

Deputy Martin had an opportunity to have an independent investigation into the banks back in 2010. However, his Government created a secret commission of investigation, the Nyberg commission, which produced no names and no accountability. Before that was established we were promised it would get to the bottom of all these issues, but when the terms of reference were eventually produced it was watered down.

Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Independent)
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Two wrongs do not make a right.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I am not interested in weak, secret investigations that produce nothing. What the people want is that justice be seen to be done. An inquiry is one element and a criminal court case is something else. The State structure of the Garda, the Director of Public Prosecutions, DPP, and the Director of Corporate Enforcement has done the preparatory work. Charges have been levelled against a number of individuals and books of evidence have been prepared and produced. I understand that the criminal case will go to court some time early next year.

The inquiry cannot do that, nor was it ever intended to do that. However, I believe it is appropriate that the Oireachtas should have at its disposal a proper parliamentary committee of investigation to deal with what the public wants to know, which is how all this happened, who met whom and why decisions were taken in that manner. These are matters of public interest and whether it is an inquiry such as described by the Deputy or a parliamentary inquiry, it cannot deal with what people would like to see in this case which is that if there are people of criminal intent who conducted criminal activity the court system should be brought to bear and the court should make its decisions to deal with those people under the law.

To be honest I do not wish to have anything to do with ten year investigations that will make lawyers millionaires and bring nobody to account. We should move through the parliamentary system. This is the people's House. We should set up a properly structured and properly resourced parliamentary inquiry to get on with the work it can do. It cannot do work that will put people behind bars as it is the criminal law and a judge and jury that convict people who might be brought before the courts.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Taoiseach's reply is not clear regarding whether there will be a referendum. What he has said gives confusing signals in that regard.

The Oireachtas inquiry provided for in the Bill introduced by the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Brendan Howlin, does not have the powers to bring non-officeholders to account or to make any adverse findings regarding the behaviour in the banks. That is a fact and nobody disputes it. Clearly, it falls short of what is required.

With regard to the statement by the Taoiseach that things have now changed in the banks and people can now trust them, which he said in the context of mortgage arrears, I met a family last week that is in that position. There are two children and the husband is in a permanent pensionable job. He is only on 12 months interest-only repayments but last Christmas week he got a telephone call from the bank telling him to start preparing to sell his family home.

Aodhán Ó Ríordáin (Dublin North Central, Labour)
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Did the Deputy apologise?

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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That is what is happening. This person has engaged with the bank and sought to find a resolution mechanism with the bank, but there was no response.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Will the Deputy put his question?

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The point is that the banks have not changed. There is no confidence among the public in the capacity of the banks to deal fairly with the thousands of people in mortgage arrears because of the change in the code of practice and the change in the legislation which essentially gives carte blanche to the banks and puts them in the driving seat. I am not the only person saying that. People at the coalface who are helping families are saying it and they have briefed Deputies on it. They find it incredible that the banks have been given such additional powers by the Government to put additional pressure on families in mortgage arrears. The people do not trust the banks to deal with them fairly and independently. That is the actual position and it is why the Taoiseach should have introduced an independent oversight mechanism.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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As I said yesterday we are discussing a situation in which tens of thousands of people in this country are now existing for their families and living for banks because of the pressure that is on them and the way this thing happened. It all happened through a culture in which banks, developers and members of the Deputy's party were heavily involved. We must find out what happened; we need to understand that culture. Due to the fact that particular behaviour was investigated by the Garda, files were confiscated and sent directly to the Garda. The DPP is now in receipt of all those documents and charges have been preferred against a number of individuals. That process is under way.

However, we need to find out about the elements of what happened during the run in to the guarantee being given and the way it was given. I do not have the answers to that, but I expect the parliamentary system would be able to bring to public awareness, in public, why much of this happened. That inquiry cannot, as the Deputy correctly said, say that person X is guilty of this or that, but it can find out about the background, the connections, the decisions that were made and why they were made, without imputing guilt. That is in the public interest. However, it is something I do not want to see dragging on for eight, ten or 12 years where one makes millionaires of lawyers and nobody is called to account. There are two separate issues here.

The Deputy's question is about the behaviour of the banks in dealing with thousands who are under pressure with their mortgages and distressed mortgages. This morning I listened to the director of the personal insolvency agency, which is now open for business. There is an opportunity for the individual the Deputy mentioned to go to the personal insolvency service to deal with that matter. The service was introduced to provide a different option for persons who have mortgages to find a way out of the situation in which they find themselves.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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It is not happening.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I do not know the circumstances of the person the Deputy mentioned. The Central Bank has set down conditions for the lending banks and these conditions must be met.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Central Bank has said it cannot be prescriptive on this. It does not have the powers that are suggested.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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That means people must be made offers of sustainable solutions for their individual circumstances.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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We are way over time on this question. Please co-operate with the Chair.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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It is not just dealing with interest-only repayments but is about finding a sustainable way out of the problem.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Central Bank does not have the power to instruct the banks on this.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The legislation has been changed and these facilities have been introduced. The conditions of the licensing authority, which is the Financial Regulator and the Central Bank, have changed substantially from what they were when the Deputy was in office.

Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Bhí mé ag éisteacht leis an Taoiseach agus an Teachta Martin. Sílim go bhfuil siad caillte. Níl said ag éisteacht leis an bpobal ag an uair seo. Tá fíor-ghá ann ag an bomaite na polaiteoirí, na baincéirí agus na Státseirbhísigh a choimeád cuntasach.

Yesterday, when I asked the Taoiseach what he intended to do about the shameful behaviour of the untouchables in the banking system, he said: "The buck stops with the Government and I am going after them." Will the Taoiseach explain how he will do that? Since he came into office he has pandered to the banks. Every measure introduced by Fine Gael and the Labour Party has given a veto to the banks. The Taoiseach is not listening to the people because this is a matter of intense public frustration. Five years later nobody has been jailed for their role in bankrupting the State. Both the Taoiseach and the Dáil have been talking about establishing an inquiry into these matters for years. It is all talk. There is no action. Ní fiú tufóg mhuice é.

We need to understand that politicians, bankers and civil servants must be held to account. The most important inquiry is the criminal inquiry into the corrupt criminal wrongdoing. The Garda and the Office of the Director of Corporate Enforcement have been investigating this for almost five years.

The Taoiseach knows that if these people were not rich or well-connected and were ordinary citizens, there would be no delay in prosecuting them. Yesterday, the Taoiseach confirmed that the Anglo Irish Bank tapes were seized by the Garda from the bank over four years ago. The State has bailed out Irish Nationwide, Irish Life & Permanent, EBS, Allied Irish Banks and the Bank of Ireland. Do any tapes from these banks exist?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I cannot answer that question for the Deputy. The tapes of which we have heard sections were acquired by the Garda four years ago as a result of warrants served and confiscations made.

Bí cinnte go bhfuil mé ag éisteacht leis na daoine an t-am ar fad, agus casaim orthu ar fud na tíre gach uile lá.

Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Cad a dhearna tú faoi sin?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Ní cheart duit é sin a rá ar chor ar bith. Bím ag éisteacht leo, cosúil leis an Teachta agus gach Teachta eile. Tá fhios agam go maith an brú atá orthu.

What we are going to do is process the legislation currently proceeding through the House in order to set up a parliamentary inquiry. It is to commence in the autumn, and we will do the work on the terms of reference. With regard to all activities and connections mentioned by the Deputy, it is time for the public to have some understanding of how this culture evolved, how the decisions were made within that culture, how we were told people should commit suicide if they claimed the housing bubble would burst, and how many people were convinced they should take out exorbitant mortgages to buy properties with highly inflated values all over the country. The latter now find themselves stranded in distress, in arrears and under pressure in their family lives.

Joe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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The Taoiseach never said anything about it at the time.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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We need to find out the reasons for the evolution of that culture, the personalities involved and the way the decisions were made. I repeat as I stand at this seat that there is nothing in the Department of the Taoiseach with which I can inform myself about the visits by bankers to senior Ministers or predecessors in my office, to record what was discussed or agreed or to point out the decisions made. Does Deputy Adams not believe it would be appropriate to find out that information? Does he not believe it would be in the interest of every citizen, including the hundreds of thousands in financial difficulty, to determine why we incurred a cost €64 billion, which will take generations to repay. We must work at European level to seek agreement and co-operation in respect of decisions taken. That has been a different argument and we have made some progress in that regard. We need to find out in this House what happened, who made agreements, who was involved, the nature of the discussions, what was said to the former Government about bringing in the guarantee, and why the bankers were able to convince that Government to go down this road, as evidenced in some of the tapes to which we have listened, which tapes imply the bankers played games with the former Government and said, "We have them." They referred to €1 billion per day or other figures. We need to find out this information and that is why we want the co-operation of the Deputy in processing the Bill to allow for inquiries in the Houses such that we can find out, in public, some of the required information in the public interest. The inquiry will not result in the conviction of people but will find out the truth behind some of what happened. The courts can deal with those against whom criminal charges are made. The people want to see the courts process such cases in accordance with the law of the land.

Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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We are having this discussion because of the Anglo Irish Bank tapes. I asked the Taoiseach whether there are tapes from Irish Nationwide, Irish Life & Permanent, EBS, Allied Irish Banks and Bank of Ireland. If I heard him properly, he said he cannot answer the question for me. Why not? Since he is stating this Parliament needs to know all the answers, he should please ask somebody for the answer. When he sat at his desk in Government Buildings to face one of the biggest scandals in banking, did he not decide he would get to the bottom of it? He should please ask for a response. Must we depend on the newspaper to tell us the story of whether there are tapes and other revelations about the other banks?

Since he came into office, the Taoiseach talked a lot about restoring the reputation of the State and its financial institutions. Yesterday and today, he will have noted that the international media is awash with justifiable and scathing criticism of the Fianna Fáil and current Governments. The truth is that this is the best small country for big bankers, corrupt politicians and speculators.

John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy should play his own tape.

Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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In so far as we can, we will support measures that will actually get to the truth of matter. However, the Taoiseach urgently needs to create the space for the Dáil and citizens to be told why the executives in question were kept in place by the previous and current Governments. He needs to tell us why they were protected and rewarded and to invite the leader of Fianna Fáil to tell the Dáil the names of the senior Ministers who met bankers during the period in question.

Dinny McGinley (Donegal South West, Fine Gael)
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He should ask him.

Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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The Taoiseach needs to move with urgency in this regard. As he said yesterday, the buck stops with the Government.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I discussed this yesterday with Deputy Martin. In order to create the space that Deputy Adams talks about, it is necessary to pass the legislation for the parliamentary inquiry system in both Houses, give the inquiry specific terms of reference, resource it properly and allow it to do its job. That job includes calling in the principals and other personalities involved to give their accounts, recollections and evidence as to why all these events happened.

When I had the privilege of going into the Taoiseach's office after being elected, I did ask for files in regard to all this business. There are no papers.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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There are.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Yes, and they are meaningless.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I asked the Taoiseach a parliamentary question on this matter and he told an untruth in here on that one.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Please allow the Taoiseach to do the answering.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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There is a Government memorandum on it.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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What was obtained under the Freedom of Information Act was a whole bundle of meaningless acknowledgements and e-mails.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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We found out that the Taoiseach was telling an untruth in the House about the shredding of documents. He told an untruth in here and he is now at it again.

Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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The former Government shredded them before it left.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Let me say to Deputy Martin in response to Deputy Adams's question-----

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Martin had an opportunity to speak and should now stay quiet.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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When the time comes for releasing the files of this Government, in regard to the agreement reached-----

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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He will get some shredding when he goes to the country.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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-----with the European Central Bank on the promissory notes, for example, which agreement was raised by the Opposition day after day, it will be discovered that the decision was properly recorded. It was read out in respect of every Minister, it was agreed and it will be on the record long after I leave here. I wanted to find out from my Department the location of the files on the bankers who came here to meet the former Government and the evidence on the requests, discussions and decisions. There is nothing but empty space. We need a parliamentary inquiry to call before it the relevant people, including Deputy Martin, who was a Minister at the time when the incorporeal meetings were held, and ask them to give us their best recollection. That is in the public interest. The people in question, the bankers and other relevant individuals should be called before the parliamentary inquiry to give their evidence and the truth of the matter. While the inquiry will not be a court of law, it will be able to deal, in the public interest, with some of the information and the truth behind what happened, and perhaps it will fill in the blank spaces that Deputy Adams and I would like to see filled in.

Frank Feighan (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Fine Gael)
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They are good at cleaning up the crime scene.

John Halligan (Waterford, Independent)
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There has been much discussion in recent weeks about Deputies acting on their conscience. I draw the Taoiseach's attention to a group of women in the Visitors Gallery who are also faced with an impossible decision. I also welcome members of the medical profession. The women concerned found themselves being told in heartbreaking fashion that they were carrying a baby who would live for just seconds or minutes outside the womb. They faced a crisis of conscience - whether to continue with their doomed pregnancy only to watch their baby die in their arms after taking its first breath or whether to end the pregnancy. A total of 1,500 women in Ireland face this dreadful decision every year or four women every day and 80% of them travel abroad for a termination. Last week the Government received an amendment to the Protection of Life During Pregnancy Bill 2013 from the Termination for Medical Reasons group, which is campaigning for the right to terminate pregnancies. The group comprises women and members of the legal and medical professions. Has the Taoiseach seen the letter they sent him? What are his views? The group has received legal advice that it is possible to include a reference to fatal foetal abnormalities in the upcoming Bill. Does he accept its argument? If not, is he prepared to support a referendum to repeal the eighth amendment to the Constitution? Every day in this country four devastated couples are told the woman is carrying a foetus with fatal abnormalities. There is simply no argument for forcing these women to carry an unviable foetus to term in the knowledge that it will be incapable of surviving. They face one of the most difficult and harrowing decisions any person will have to make - a decision that is not taken lightly - but by not legislating for it and providing the legal and medical framework needed, we are forcing them in tragic circumstances to leave their home and country without care or advice at a time when they should be surrounded by their loved ones. I have to use the word "barbaric". If the Taoiseach spoke to any of these women like I have from all over the country and listened to the harrowing details, he would cry. I ask him not to allow this to continue.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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As a husband and father, I know a pregnancy always brings a sense of excitement to a couple and of hoping the birth will be one of joy and lead to a child who can live a long, happy, fulfilling and contributing life. Everybody can understand the Deputy's comments and have some compassion on the issues he raises. I have come across cases where this has applied and the pregnant mother wanted to see the pregnancy through in order that she could hold the delivered baby in her arms and carry out an appropriate burial. The situation was explained to the Minister for Health by representatives of the group to which the Deputy referred at a meeting in June last year. The Minister, as a doctor and father, empathised with them on the case they had made and outlined. The Bill going through the House on the protection of life during pregnancy is strictly within the Constitution and the law and deals specifically with cases in which there is a real and substantial risk to the life of the mother and the circumstances that arise in those cases in which a termination is allowed under the Constitution and the law. In that sense, while I understand the point the Deputy is making, this is a different set of circumstances which are not contemplated under the Bill. The constitutional right to life of the unborn is being upheld in the Bill and the obligation on the medical profession to save both lives, where possible, will be confirmed in it. Unfortunately, I cannot accede to the Deputy's request. While I understand the point he made, we are dealing with a specific set of circumstances where there is a real and substantial threat to the life of the mother and the circumstances arising from this in which a termination of a pregnancy is allowed.

John Halligan (Waterford, Independent)
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While we are dealing with choice, we are also dealing with conditions that are incompatible with life. The best thing to do in the one minute available to me is to tell the Taoiseach a story of a woman I met who is too traumatised to be here today with all of the women present. She has told me that she went through with the birth having been recommended not to do so because the foetus was so badly damaged and it might have a traumatic effect on her. The young baby lived for approximately 25 seconds. That was three years ago and the woman concerned is deeply traumatised. She is unable to have sexual relations with her husband three years on. She is ill and wakes up with nightmares almost every night because of what she saw. That is not compassion. A total of 87% of the people said in an opinion poll that women should have the choice if they were told the foetus was incompatible with life. Does the Taoiseach not accept that by forcing these women to go through with this, we are damaging their lives and the lives of their husbands, partners and families forever? Some 87% of the people would be behind the Taoiseach, but with the deepest of respect to him - I informed him that I would raise this issue today - the women concerned do not need compassion. They have their partners, families and friends and the medical profession. They need help. Last June they met the Minister for Health who I am told was deeply moved and promised he would do something. I do not know what that something is, but those were his words. I again ask the Taoiseach and every other Member to look up at these women and their husbands and tell them they will not allow another 1,500 women to suffer next year in the way many of them have suffered.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I am in receipt of representations from various groups around the country regarding the Protection of Life During Pregnancy Bill which is going through the House.

Some of these groups would like a much more liberal regime, some are calling for no change, while others would prefer a very much restricted position. What I am required to do as Head of Government is to deal with our Constitution and our law. While I have sympathy for the people represented by the Terminations for Medical Reasons group, it is one of a number of groups campaigning in this area. I do not know the personal circumstances of the person the Deputy mentioned. It is not open to me, in the context of the Bill before the House, to change any of these definitions.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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It is possible to do so under the Constitution.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The provisions are strictly within the Constitution and the law. That is how the Bill was framed and that is the objective. As I said, some people want an entirely different regime, with changes that would alter the situation very much indeed. While I understand the point the Deputy is making, this Bill deals with the circumstances in which a termination of pregnancy is allowable, namely, where there is a real and substantial threat to the life of the mother.