Michael Moynihan (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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19. To ask the Minister for Defence his views on PDFORRA taking up associate membership of the Irish Congress of Trade Unions; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [29095/13]

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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The position is that under the terms of the Defence (Amendment) Act 1990 the Defence Forces representative associations are prohibited from being associated with or affiliated to any trade unions, or any other body without the consent of the Minister. Accordingly, the representative association PDFORRA cannot be affiliated to ICTU at present. A similar arrangement applies to the Garda Síochána representative associations. The basis for the prohibition is that it would be inappropriate to apply the provisions of the Industrial Relations Act 1990 to members of the Defence Forces. The taking of any form of industrial action is felt to be irreconcilable with military service. As has been done in the past, the Defence Forces may be called on to contribute to maintaining vital services in times of industrial action. The potential for serious difficulties could arise in these circumstances if the associations were associated with or affiliated to ICTU.

A number of mechanisms have been put in place through the Defence Forces conciliation and arbitration scheme to compensate for the prohibition on affiliation to ICTU. These provide the representative associations with structures and processes which enable them to make representations and negotiate on behalf of their members.

In addition, a framework exists that facilitates the associations engaging with the official side in talks parallel to those taking place between ICTU and the official side at national level. This parallel process was successfully operated in respect of the most recent rounds of discussions, facilitated by the Labour Relations Commission on an extension to the Public Service Agreement 2010–14, which concluded last month. I am satisfied with the present arrangements in place and have no plans to make any changes.

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Fianna Fail)
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I understand that the Permanent Defence Force Other Ranks Representative Association, PDFORRA, wrote to the Minister recently seeking associate membership of ICTU. In PDFORRA's correspondence, it points out that, with the Minister's permission, it has joined the Irish Conference of Professional Service Associations and has also been allowed to affiliate to the European Federation of Employees in Public Services. It should at least be possible to explore allowing PDFORRA to take up associate membership of ICTU. One is conscious that a strike of public servants or a national strike would require members of the Defence Forces to be called upon, but one could not, nor would not, countenance a situation in which their membership of ICTU would give rise to their refusal. That is not what is envisaged.

I am also conscious that the International Labour Organisation, ILO, has pointed out that Article 5 of its Labour Relations (Public Services) Convention 1978, convention No. 151, provides that organisations such as PDFORRA "shall enjoy complete independence from public authorities". Ireland could be viewed as being in contravention of this article, given the Department of Defence's refusal to allow listed personnel to join organisations like ICTU. I would welcome any further comment from the Minister.

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy may be aware that PDFORRA requested on a number of occasions - in 2002, 2009 and 2012 - to become either affiliated to or to take up associate membership of ICTU. These requests from PDFORRA raised significant challenges requiring mature consideration. Ireland has always been at the forefront in Europe in accepting defence forces into industrial relations mechanisms. The system in place in the Defence Forces continues to operate well and I believe that Defence Forces personnel have achieved significant benefits down the years through the existing process. Personnel are the critical resources of the Defence Forces. Consideration of a request for associate membership of ICTU requires us to consider the potential conflicts and divided loyalties that may well arise where the Government decides to deploy the Defence Forces in a situation of industrial unrest. In such circumstances, it is impossible to escape the unique position of the Defence Forces and, indeed, the Garda Síochána in the State. It is important that the Defence Forces can deal with matters appropriately in the context of performing their crucial role in the State.

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Fianna Fail)
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I am aware that previous Ministers refused this request, but it is an anomaly and an anachronism that organisations such as PDFORRA cannot be represented to some extent in pay negotiations. The idea that they could be represented by their employer, who is their paymaster, is nonsensical.

The loyalty, solidarity and support of the Defence Forces, as represented through PDFORRA and the Representative Association of Commissioned Officers, RACO, are beyond question. There is no doubt in my mind, as I am sure there is no doubt in the Minister's mind, that there would be no set of circumstances in which these organisations would seek to put the security of the State or the wishes of the Minister of the day under threat or challenge.

Tommy Broughan (Dublin North East, Labour)
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I strongly agree with Deputy Ó Fearghaíl. The request for associate membership of ICTU is a reasonable one. In the recent Croke Park II and Haddington Road negotiations, there was a disquiet among members of the security forces regarding the State's major economic developments and the fact that such important servants of the State were not given a direct input into the decisions being taken on their futures.

The Irish Congress of Trade Unions has attempted to shape a way forward for the economic future of the country. Looking back at history, it is clear the right to collective bargaining is a fundamental civil right. The Minister might remember I tried to have that vindicated in this House on a number of occasions, when both he and I were on the backbenches. It is right that he consider this for PDFORRA.

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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It is very important, when there are discussions relating to terms and conditions of employment, such as occurred recently and which led to the Haddington Road agreement, that the representative bodies, be they from the Defence Forces side or the Garda side, feel they can be fully engaged. The parallel process that took place facilitated that. However, I have stated I am happy to look at how that process can be improved. We should not always assume existing structures are as perfect as they might be. I am very happy to see whether things can be changed in a way in which there might be a perception of greater engagement.

I wish to praise the different representative bodies in dealing with what were known as the Croke Park II discussions, subsequently the Haddington Road discussions. The Defence Forces representative bodies dealt very carefully and very committedly with those matters. Quite rightly, they sought to protect the position of their members but they also engaged constructively to assist and identify how crucial savings could be made. When it came to the Haddington Road agreement, the Garda representative bodies similarly engaged constructively.

I am aware Deputy Ó Fearghaíl is pushing me to do something his party has never agreed to do at any time it was in government throughout the history of the State. It is always interesting to try-----

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Fianna Fail)
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Nothing wrong with that.

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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-----to figure out whether this is a new Fianna Fáil policy, or some sort of revised policy for Opposition that will be buried should that party ever find itself, in some distant future, back in government again.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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Now, now.

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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I have no idea how serious the Deputy is in dealing with the issue.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Thank you, Minister. We want to take in the next question.

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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I will conclude on this for Deputy Broughan. It is important to note the first objective of the ICTU constitution is: "to uphold the democratic character and structure of the trade union movement, to maintain the right and freedom of association, the right of workers to organise and negotiate" - all of which are of great importance - "and all such rights as are necessary to the performance of trade union function, in particular the right to strike".

As has happened in the past, the Defence Forces can be called upon at any time to aid the civil authority. The potential for serious difficulties could arise in such circumstances, if PDFORRA were associated with ICTU, as clear conflicts of objects and policies could and, I believe, would arise. This is a complex issue and we must recognise that both the Defence Forces and An Garda Síochána play a specific and particular role in the State.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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We will move on.

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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We are moving with great speed today. I believe this is the first time we have got through this number of questions.