Barry Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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9. To ask the Minister for Environment, Community and Local Government the total number of councillors in each Dublin local authority area; the total amount planned under Putting People First [20442/13]

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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The number of councillors for each Dublin local authority area currently is as follows: Dublin City – 52; Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council – 28; Fingal County Council – 24; and South Dublin County Council - 26. I announced the establishment of an independent local electoral area boundary committee on 15 November 2012 to carry out a review of local electoral areas. An objective in this context is to achieve a better balance and consistency in representation ratios. In light of the terms of reference for the boundary committee, there is a strong and logical case for reducing the degree of representational imbalance currently in the Dublin authorities. The terms of reference specify, therefore, that the number of members for Dublin City Council shall be fixed at 63 and for every other area, including the Dublin counties, it shall be subject to a minimum of 18 members and, other than for Cork County, a maximum of 40 members.

Barry Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister has been highly selective in the manner in which he answered the question. I asked whether, based on the population ratio included in the Putting People First document, he envisages provision being made for up to 60 new councillors in Dublin. Is that the case and, if so, what are the estimated costs of having a new cohort of councillors in the Dublin region? I do not propose to speak in detail about the rest of the country as the position in Dublin differs from that in the rest of the country. The boundary commission will report on the rest of the country in May. Is it envisaged that provision will be made for up to 60 new councillors in the greater Dublin area, that is, Dublin city and county? What will be the costs to the Exchequer of providing for more new councillors?

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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As Deputy Cowen will be aware, the terms of reference already provide for an increase from 52 to 63 in the number of councillors on Dublin City Council. The local boundary committee will make decisions on numbers based on its terms of reference and subject to the maximum and minimum number in each other local authority area, including the Dublin local authorities. If one takes a ratio of one councillor per 4,830 population, which is the average outside Dublin, it is clear there will be an increase in the number of councillors in the capital. I do not know the precise figure as this will depend on the decision of the boundary committee.

Barry Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Surely the Minister has an idea of what will be the increase in numbers.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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No, I do not interfere with boundary commissions as Fianna Fáil may have done in the past.

Barry Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Based on the population ratio the Minister provided, the figure will be roughly 60. Is that correct?

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I can tell the Deputy what the current ratios are. In Fingal County Council, South Dublin County Council, Dublin City Council and Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council, the ratios of councillors to population are as follows: 1:11,416, 1:10,200, 1:10,146 and 1:7,366, respectively. If we were to apply the ratio of 1;4,830 that applies in the rest of the country, the number of councillors in Dublin would increase substantially. That is not the intention, however.

Barry Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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How much will this reform cost?

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I do not know the outcome of the boundary committee's deliberations.

Barry Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Has the Minister not been given any indication of the outcome?

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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No.

Eoghan Murphy (Dublin South East, Fine Gael)
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In terms of local authority reform plans for Dublin, is it still the Minister's intention to propose a directly elected mayor to the electorate of Dublin at the next local elections? If so, will this be done by means of a simple referendum with "Yes" and "No" options? Will the ballot take place in all the local authorities in the Dublin region? If the electorate vote in favour of a directly elected mayor, will further reforms be introduced after 2014 to accommodate the new system?

Kevin Humphreys (Dublin South East, Labour)
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I welcome the Minister's reply. Not only has Dublin been vastly under-represented for, but the city has also been under-funded in terms of local government grants. For this reason, the re-balancing proposed by the Minister is welcome. I will make an issue of the under-funding of the capital in the coming year.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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If we were to apply the 1:4,830 ratio, the number of councillors in Dublin would increase to 264. That is not my intention.

Barry Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I understood the Minister was awaiting the report of the boundary committee.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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If the Deputy were to read the terms of reference of the boundary committee, he would note that it is precluded from applying that ratio.

Barry Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Did the Minister give any thought to the likely costs of the proposal?

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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The number of public representatives nationally will be reduced from 1,647 to 950, which is a radical decrease in numbers.

I thank Deputies Murphy and Humphreys for highlighting the imbalance in the number of councillors per head of population in respect of the Dublin area. A colloquium, chaired by the Lord Mayor of Dublin and involving all councillors in Dublin city and county, will be triggered immediately. Its first meeting will be held in May and it will discuss the merits and demerits of holding a plebiscite on the day of the local elections in 2014 on whether to have a directly elected Lord Mayor of Dublin. This will be a decision for the people of Dublin city and county to make in due course.

Barry Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I get the Minister's point on the overall issue as well as the culling of councillors and abolition of town councillors. He has made a populist statement on this issue, which reflects the mantra he has used since the document was first published.

I specifically asked questions in respect of Dublin. The people of Dublin are entitled to be made aware of the sort of costs that can be associated with the expectation that, as the Deputy representing the Labour Party indicated, there will be a need for 60 additional councillors. I am sure those in the Labour Party will be delighted to think that their party's core urban base will be strengthened by virtue of this proposal.

Kevin Humphreys (Dublin South East, Labour)
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Is the Deputy referring to underfunding in respect of Dublin?

Barry Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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It is only right and proper that the Minister should have made some provision or allowance in respect of the sort of costs that will arise as a result of what is proposed for Dublin.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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Nationally, we expect the costs associated with providing support and services for local authority members to be reduced by €4 million.

Barry Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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What will be the position in Dublin?

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I do not have a figure for Dublin.

Barry Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The cost is going to increase.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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Yes, that will be the case. If one is intent on increasing the number of councillors, then there must be a corresponding increase in costs. We are quite clear on that fact but I cannot indicate what will be the precise cost until the exact numbers become apparent.