Michael Moynihan (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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6. To ask the Minister for Environment, Community and Local Government his plans to introduce legislation to reduce the liability on the State for the re-imbursement of dormant accounts; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [20469/13]

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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The Dormant Accounts Act 2001, together with the Unclaimed Life Assurance Policies Act 2003, the Dormant Accounts (Amendment) Act 2005 and the Dormant Accounts (Amendment) Act 2012, provide a framework for the administration of unclaimed accounts in credit institutions, namely, banks, building societies, An Post and insurance companies, and in unclaimed life assurance policies in insurance undertakings. The legislation requires the institutions or undertakings to take steps to identify and contact the owners of dormant accounts and unclaimed life assurance policies.

The main purpose of the legislation is to reunite account holders or policyholders with their funds in credit institutions and insurance undertakings and, in this regard, such institutions and undertakings are required to take steps to identify and contact the owners of dormant accounts and unclaimed life assurance policies. The fund consists of a reserve account from which reclaims and various expenses are paid and an investment and disbursement account from which investments and disbursements are made.

The transfer of moneys to the dormant accounts fund takes place on the basis that the beneficial owners of the moneys have a guaranteed right to reclaim their property at any time in the future. The dormant accounts fund derives, in the main, from private bank and building society accounts and must be handled and invested prudently having regard to the constitutionally guaranteed right to private property and the confidential nature of the relationship the credit institutions enjoy with their customers. I have no plans to amend this legislation.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Can the Minister tell me how much money has been disbursed under the dormant accounts scheme and how much there is in the disbursement account, not including the reserve account? Does he agree that in the real world it is slightly farcical that all this money is considered to be a contingent liability on the State? When the Minister goes to spend that money for the benefit of citizens, he is told by the Department of Finance the sum is adding to the national debt. Will the Minister further confirm that in every year since the dormant accounts fund was set up the claim for reimbursement on the fund has been less than the amount of inflow from the financial institutions?

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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As a former Minister, Deputy Ó Cuív understands better than anybody the difficulties relating to this matter and the complex nature of how the fund is operated. I believe some €82 million is currently in the account. The dormancy period is 15 years, dating each year from 30 September. An account is designated dormant when on 30 September there have been no transactions by the account holder in the previous 15 years. Due to constitutional and privacy issues it can often be difficult to trace people who may be entitled to the money in an account that is lying dormant. The dormancy period of 15 years is a considerable period of time and has its own implications as to how one can draw down moneys that might ultimately be drawn down by the account holder. It is a complex relationship. As to what the Deputy stated in regard to the general Government balance, this money is counted because it is deemed to be money owed to people at present under the law.

Kevin Humphreys (Dublin South East, Labour)
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The dormant account money was spent very well when Deputy Ó Cuív was a Minister. I will be precise - the dormant account funding was very important to urban areas just as the Leader fund is welcome to rural communities as their social infrastructure money. Since dormant account funding has closed there has been no money for social infrastructure for urban areas throughout the country. Given the funds present, is there any opportunity to release some of them for urban areas?

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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There is a designated fund for urban disadvantage and the local community development funds provide some sort of assistance. The local and community development programme, LCDP, still operates in urban as well as rural communities - does the Deputy know that? I realise the moneys are not as great as they were and I agree the dormant accounts fund was certainly a good fund for educational, economic and social disadvantage needs. I have explained the difficulties in getting some of this money released. Since we had visitors to town, known as the troika, we must now include this money as part of the general Government balance but the matter is kept under review by the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform. If there are any moneys that can be released there are very worthy urban projects in the Deputy's and in other urban constituencies which can be taken into account.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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It is fair to say that, constitutionally, rights to property are not absolute but are subject to the exigencies of the common good. Nobody is saying that when a person comes to make a claim his or account would not be paid. There is all the money coming in plus the reserve fund for that end. The problem is that about €300 million is written in the books of the State, of which the vast majority has been paid out. That is a contingent liability and it stops the Minister from supporting very worthwhile projects. I believe there are two measures he could adopt immediately. One is flagship projects where dormant account money is used to match community or philanthropic money. The other is the discretionary money we were giving to the RAPID area implementation teams, or AITs, for small projects within areas of severe disadvantage.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Thank you.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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To free up the money, all the Minister must do is to decide that the order of claim on the money would be slightly changed. In other words, the person would be reimbursed and the first call would be on the constant funds coming in every year that become dormant. The second call would be on the reserve fund and the third would be on all the new dormant accounts coming in which every year have exceeded the outflows in reimbursements. However, to say that one needs-----

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Thank you, Deputy.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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-----a back-up of all the moneys that have ever been put in as dormant-----

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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We are over time, thank you.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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-----is, in my view, farcical. I ask the Minister at least to consider I might have a point in this respect. I have followed this matter for years and will admit to having tried to persuade a Minister of Finance in the last year of the last Government to change this situation as part of a Bill we were introducing but unfortunately it did not get through in my time. For a number of years I have believed this was an understandable provision when the Bill was introduced-----

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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I must ask the Deputy to conclude. We are way over time. The Minister must be very brief.

Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I have sympathy with what Deputy Ó Cuív indicated and since I became Minister I have tried to implement what Deputies Ó Cuív and Humphreys have suggested. However, the people in the Department may be the same as those who were there in Deputy Ó Cuív's time. We have not yet got political buy-in on this matter that would allow me to make the changes they advocate.