Dáil debates

Tuesday, 30 April 2013

Ceisteanna - Questions (Resumed)

Seanad Referendum

3:50 pm

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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1. To ask the Taoiseach his plans to bring forward a referendum on the future of Seanad Éireann. [2321/13]

Photo of Joe HigginsJoe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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2. To ask the Taoiseach if it is his policy to hold a referendum on the future of Seanad Éireann. [12515/13]

Photo of Simon HarrisSimon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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3. To ask the Taoiseach his plans for a referendum on the future of Seanad Éireann. [20169/13]

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. 1 to 3, inclusive, together.

The programme for Government contains a commitment to put to the people a referendum to abolish the Seanad and the necessary Bill is currently being drafted. It is the intention to publish the Bill in the current session in order that there will be ample time for debate on it prior to a referendum later in the year.

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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The programme for Government, when published, accepted the need for further scrutiny of government, greater government accountability and reform. In reality, the abolition of the Seanad will mean there will be less rather than more accountability. In this term, the Government has consistently used its majority to ram through legislation, impose guillotines and shorten debates.

In some instances we have ended up with very poor quality and flawed legislation as a result. I completely accept that the Seanad, as it is currently structured, has a democratic deficit. We are of the view that the current version needs to be scrapped and then reformed rather than abolished.

If the Taoiseach had been thoughtful and serious in respect of the Seanad, he would have referred the matter to the Constitutional Convention. As he is aware, the latter is currently meeting to consider eight - perhaps nine - different proposals for constitutional change and reform. I do not understand why the Taoiseach did not avail of the opportunity of the convention to allow citizens, alongside political representatives, to consider the matter of the second Chamber and to take a view on it. Ultimately, the Taoiseach has chosen not to do that and has indicated that he will bring forward legislation. Will he be a bit more specific and indicate the point at which that legislation currently stands? I do not know why the Taoiseach is grinning. I am asking him a serious question.

4:00 pm

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I was not grinning. I have just taken a drink of water.

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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So the Taoiseach grins upon consuming water.

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Will the Deputy pose a question? This is Question Time.

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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The people will ultimately decide should the Government put this matter to a referendum.

Photo of John Paul PhelanJohn Paul Phelan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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Was the Deputy grinning last-----

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Does the Taoiseach have any idea when that referendum might take place? Does he have any intention of allowing for debate or consultation with broader sections of society prior to its being held? I presume the normal rules relating to the funding of referendum campaigns, the information provided by Government, etc., will apply. How much consideration has the Taoiseach given to these matters?

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Deputy for her question. The reason this is not a matter for the Constitutional Convention to consider is because part of the programme of Government was to establish that convention in order to see how it might work. Also, we specifically decided to put to the people a referendum on the abolition of the Seanad. In March the Government commissioned the work relating to the preparation of the relevant Bill. That Bill will be published this session and a full-scale debate will take place on it.

There is broad-ranging consultation occurring in respect of this issue. Obviously, citizens cannot be left bereft of anything which might be removed from our system if the people decide to abolish the Seanad. This means that there would be changes with regard to the way the Dáil does its business. Changes would also arise in respect of the specific references to the Seanad in the Constitution. I refer, for example, to the Seanad being mentioned in the context of the removal of a member of the Supreme Court or the High Court and in respect of the Comptroller and Auditor General, the President, the determination of money Bills.

In the event that the people decide to abolish the Seanad, questions arise as to when it would be phased out. For example, would this occur prior to the commencement of the lifetime of the next Oireachtas? Further questions arise as to what would happen to business that was under way or nearing completion if the Seanad ceased to exist. Other instances where the Seanad is mentioned in the Constitution relate to the Presidential Commission, the early signature of Bills by the President, etc.

All of these issues will be dealt with in the Bill that is to be published this session. We will make arrangements, in good time, for a proper, constructive and open debate on the matter. The referendum will take place in the autumn. It will probably be held in the month of October but I cannot be too definite on that matter just yet. There is a very busy schedule of legislation to be dealt with in October. In addition, the budget will be introduced on 15 October. This will be followed by the finance Bill, the social welfare Bill and so on. When the Bill is prepared it will come before the Cabinet which will then approve and publish it and make arrangements for the establishment of a commission to deal with the matter. We will then let everyone have his or her say.

Photo of Joe HigginsJoe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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The Socialist Party was decades ahead of the parties in government in demanding the abolition of the Seanad. The Seanad is an elitist entity, some of the Members of which are voted in by university graduates. There is no vote in the Seanad for ordinary working people who did not have the opportunity to attend third level. Even some of those who have attended college, have been denied a vote as well. The Seanad is, therefore, full of anomalies and elitism. It is a vehicle of patronage for the political parties in power and for the Taoiseach of the day. In many ways, it is a rotten borough. The vocational panels relating to the Upper House were supposed to gift to the nation legislators of particular expertise. However, this has not proven to be the case. It is high time the Seanad was abolished.

I ask that the Taoiseach be more specific. He stated that the Bill providing for the abolition of the Seanad will be published this session. Will this Bill contain all the details in respect of the legislative and constitutional changes that will have to be made if the people choose to abolish the Seanad? Will the Taoiseach indicate when he envisages that the referendum will take place?

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I thank Deputy Higgins. As I informed Deputy McDonald, it is proposed to hold this and a number of other referenda in the autumn. I cannot provide a specific date as yet because the Government has not made a decision in that regard. When the Bill is published, it will deal with all the issues relating to the removal of references, direct and indirect, to the Seanad in the Constitution. It will also deal with how the consequences of the abolition will be catered for by means of changes to the Oireachtas, particularly the Dáil. The Bill will be published this session and the information relevant to it will be made available to everybody. Clearly a process must be undergone in respect of any referendum. That relating to the Seanad is one among a number that will be held. The Government decided this morning that a second referendum will be held in respect of the court of civil appeal as a result of the backlog that has built up in the higher courts. The latter is an issue in respect of which the Minister for Justice and Equality will proceed to prepare legislation.

The first report of the Constitutional Convention is due to be submitted to the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government shortly. Arising from that report, the Minister will bring a memo to Government for its consideration. The Government will make a decision at that stage as to whether there should be one or more referenda on foot of the first report of the convention.

Photo of Simon HarrisSimon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Taoiseach for his commitment on this issue and for the clarification he has provided in respect of it. When he placed the issue of the abolition of the Seanad on the public agenda before the most recent general election, it moved the conversation on significantly. Some 12 reports on Seanad reform were compiled in the past but no action was taken in respect of any of these. Even those about whom we read in the media and who are concerned with regard to the abolition of the Seanad would agree that a referendum will at least progress the issue of proper political reform.

In advance of the referendum, will any discussion take place in respect of changing the electoral system for membership of this House in order to ensure that the varied voices which are heard in other Chambers and who might not be elected to the Dáil might continue to play their part? A total of 14 of the 27 member states of the EU have unicameral systems. Is consideration being given to what other countries with such systems have done to ensure that there is a level of scrutiny such as that to which Deputy McDonald refers?

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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What was the Deputy's first question?

Photo of Simon HarrisSimon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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It refers to learning from the experience of other countries. As stated, 14 of the 27 member states of the European Union have unicameral systems. Most countries with bicameral systems have populations greater than 10 million.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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What was the Deputy's point about public representatives?

Photo of Simon HarrisSimon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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It relates to the electoral system. Prior to the election, there was a discussion as to whether we would consider having some Members of this House elected in a way different to that in which we are all currently elected. This would ensure that there would continue to be varied voices heard within the political process.

4:10 pm

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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There are a number of countries, such as New Zealand, Denmark and Sweden, that have unicameral systems. The situation, in so far as people being elected by a different method to the Dáil is concerned, is that the Consitutional Convention will look at the electoral system. Clearly, it may make its views known as to the kind of electoral system, the issue of constituencies, boundaries, independent commissions and all of that, and the scale and nature of the Oireachtas, including the Dáil, how it should be constituted and the numbers to be elected thereto. These are all part of a new reflection by the combination of public representatives and ordinary people selected from the Register of Electors to give their views.

For the Deputy's information, the second report of the Consitutional Convention is due to be received by the Government by July. We will then consider that report here in public discussion and the Government will make its views known on the issues that are also considered in the second report, possibly or probably for a decision by referendum in 2014, where I would expect to have a number of other issues decided by a vote of the people also.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Previously, I asked the Taoiseach to publish the material that he has consistently stated has been prepared on a referendum to abolish the Seanad. He has now confirmed that the appeals court legislation will be laid before the Dáil. Some weeks ago, we were briefed that a referendum on the patents treaty would also be considered in the autumn. That is three referendums for the autumn, yet we are heading into May and it seems that we will have less information than we have ever received on a proposal in the past 20 years. The timeline is important in terms of Members and the public having an opportunity to digest the issues. For example, the Taoiseach referred to issues with phasing out the Seanad and the date the decision would take effect. Does this suggest that the Seanad might not be abolished immediately following a vote and that it would be in existence for a further four years?

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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On the same note, it is assumed that the referendum will be held in the autumn. In the event that the people decide to vote for the abolition of the Seanad, will their decision take effect immediately or will the Seanad serve out its term?

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Bill will be published this session. All of the information available will be published at the same time and will be made available to everybody. On the question of when, if the people decide in the autumn to say that they, by referendum, want to abolish Seanad Éireann, their decision will become effective, my view is that it would happen just before the commencement of operations of the next Dáil. The Seanad is a constitutional entity and the people may make their decision, but the current Seanad has work that it will have to complete and address. Let us say that the referendum is on date X. If people decide to abolish the Seanad, it will continue with its work in its constitutional position until just before the next Dáil will meet in session. All of the material that is relevant will be published.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Is there a reprieve of two years for existing Senators?

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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For the Deputy's information in regard to the unitary patent, the position is that the Government decided this morning that it would not be feasible to do that this year because there were a number of issues from a European perspective that were not clear yet. This will require some legislation. The Government reflected on this. It would be more appropriate to hold that referendum as one of a number next year. The unitary payment referendum will not be held this year - it will be next year. When the Government reflects on the first report of the Consitutional Convention, it may decide to hold another referendum or whatever together with the Seanad question and the question on the court of civil appeal.