Dáil debates

Tuesday, 26 March 2013

Topical Issue Debate

Property Taxation Application

6:20 pm

Photo of Catherine ByrneCatherine Byrne (Dublin South Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I call Deputy Stanley on the next matter, the local property tax.

Photo of Charles FlanaganCharles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Before my colleague Deputy Stanley begins, is it in order for Members, particularly Deputy Stanley, to wear emblems of the type that he is now sporting in the Chamber? It is not only himself but also his colleague, Deputy Colreavy. Some Members of this House may find the wearing of such emblems offensive.

Photo of Catherine ByrneCatherine Byrne (Dublin South Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is not a matter to be taken on Topical Issue time.

Photo of Charles FlanaganCharles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

In that regard, will the Acting Chairman seek a report from the Ceann Comhairle in accordance with Standing Orders and the long-standing practice and procedures of this House?

Photo of Catherine ByrneCatherine Byrne (Dublin South Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will.

Photo of Charles FlanaganCharles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

May I ask that the report be laid before the House after the Order of Business in the morning? I object to the wearing of this emblem by Sinn Féin Deputies in the manner we now see.

Photo of Catherine ByrneCatherine Byrne (Dublin South Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Thank you, Deputy. I call Deputy Stanley.

Photo of Michael NoonanMichael Noonan (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is it pinned on or gummed on?

Photo of Charles FlanaganCharles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I do not wish to cast any aspersions on my constituency colleague, but he is only carrying out orders. He was sent in here with the emblem.

Photo of Catherine ByrneCatherine Byrne (Dublin South Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will do what Deputy Flanagan has requested. However, we are on Topical Issues, and I call Deputy Stanley. If he spoke on the matter he raised, it would be helpful.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I hope this is not taking from my four minutes. However, I just want to say to Deputy Charles Flanagan-----

Photo of Catherine ByrneCatherine Byrne (Dublin South Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Hang on a second, Deputy.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

He addressed me and he made two accusations. I am wearing green, white and gold.

Photo of Catherine ByrneCatherine Byrne (Dublin South Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am in the Chair.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I have seen members of his party wearing emblems, to which I did not object.

Photo of Charles FlanaganCharles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I know the symbolism of the emblem worn by the Sinn Féin Deputies.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I do not accept orders from anyone.

Photo of Catherine ByrneCatherine Byrne (Dublin South Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Will Deputy Stanley proceed with his Topical Issue matter?

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I do not accept orders from anyone, be it Deputy Charles Flanagan or anyone else.

Photo of Charles FlanaganCharles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Maybe the Deputy will comply with Standing Orders.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

If I could have my four minutes without interruption-----

Photo of Catherine ByrneCatherine Byrne (Dublin South Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Deputy Flanagan, please.

Photo of Charles FlanaganCharles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

These are offensive emblems.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

If the Deputy finds green, white and gold objectionable-----

Photo of Catherine ByrneCatherine Byrne (Dublin South Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Will Deputy Stanley speak on the Topical Issue matter?

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----he could answer that for himself.

Photo of Charles FlanaganCharles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is not the colour I object to but to the intent behind the emblem.

Photo of Catherine ByrneCatherine Byrne (Dublin South Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Deputy Stanley is now cutting into his own time.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am starting my four minutes now, as I was interrupted by Deputy Charles Flanagan trying to score a political point.

Photo of Catherine ByrneCatherine Byrne (Dublin South Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will decide the Deputy's time.

Photo of Charles FlanaganCharles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I have asked that the Ceann Comhairle make a report on the matter tomorrow for the benefit of the House.

Photo of Catherine ByrneCatherine Byrne (Dublin South Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I have said already that I will ask for that.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Could the Acting Chairman bring the House to order for my four minutes?

Photo of Charles FlanaganCharles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I want to record my objection to the wearing of Easter lilies or any other offensive emblems or flag-waving from Sinn Féin Members.

Photo of Michael NoonanMichael Noonan (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Are they gummed on or pinned on?

Photo of Michael ColreavyMichael Colreavy (Sligo-North Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Maybe Deputy Charles Flanagan is in the wrong parliament?

Photo of Catherine ByrneCatherine Byrne (Dublin South Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Will Deputy Stanley start on his Topical Issue matter?

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is the House in order for me to take it?

Photo of Catherine ByrneCatherine Byrne (Dublin South Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am glad the Minister for Finance is in the Chamber to take this matter, which is about the local property tax. Forgetting the rights and the wrongs of the property tax, local authority houses were not supposed to be valued at over €100,000. Now, some local authority home dwellers have had their properties valued at €157 for the half year - €315 for a full year - which means they have been valued at more than €115,000. Many were also told their local authorities would deal with it by adding it on to the rent. However, some of my constituents have received letters telling them they must make a return. I even spoke to one elderly constituent yesterday who was going to borrow the money to pay the tax. The helpline is not very helpful, and is very costly because it charges a premium rate. There is much confusion about the liability for this tax.

My neighbours' homes in my housing estate are being banded in the €150,000 to €200,000 category. However, the six most recent house sales in the estate came in between €95,000 and €110,000. A four-bedroom house, which was the largest, only came to €120,000. The auctioneers have priced brand new houses in the estate with solar panels and so forth at €110,000.

Photo of Michael NoonanMichael Noonan (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is not a valuation.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What is really infuriating people are the press reports that one Michael O'Leary, who lives in a mansion nearby, will have a lower local property tax bill than my neighbours'. His house has been estimated to be worth between €100,000 and €150,000. Will the Minister confirm that this is accurate? One Mr. Quinn in Cavan, who also lives in a mansion, will be billed for €112 for this year, which is much less than the houses in my estate are being charged. My neighbours are at a loss to understand this.

The problem is that this tax is a blunt instrument, with no differentiation between houses with one bedroom and those with 17 bedrooms. It is simply determined based on the electoral areas in which the houses are located. The legislation was rammed through without this being taken into consideration, never mind people's ability to pay, and there are no exemptions, only deferrals.

Will the Minister address the fact that bills have been sent to local authority tenants when they were not meant to be? Will he address the issue of houses being overvalued when the prices reached for sales over the past four months were much less? Will he also address the fact that mansions belonging to billionaires, millionaires and former billionaires have been billed for less than our houses?

Photo of Michael NoonanMichael Noonan (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There has been some recent commentary about tenants in local authority dwellings receiving local property tax, LPT, returns. I welcome the opportunity to clarify matters and set out what they need to do. The Finance (Local Property Tax) Act 2012, as amended, sets out how the tax is to be administered and provides that a liability for LPT will arise where a person owns a residential property on the liability date, which will be 1 May 2013 for the year 2013. Section 7 of the 2012 Act provides that local authorities will be liable to pay the LPT on their properties in the same way as any other residential property owner, unless the properties in question are used to accommodate people with special housing needs, such as the elderly or people with disabilities.

A key aspect of the work undertaken by the Revenue Commissioners in implementing LPT was the development of a comprehensive register of residential properties in the State. The register was developed using data drawn from a range of sources, including the Revenue Commissioners' own databases, the Local Government Management Agency database and data from utility companies. Data from the various sources have been cross-checked to ensure the register is as accurate as possible. It is being used to issue correspondence to property owners and work is still in progress to refine it.

I am advised that in developing the register, the Revenue Commissioners collaborated with all local authorities to establish details of properties owned by the individual local authorities in order that they could be excluded in the first instance from the general issue of returns, so as to ensure tenants of local authority properties did not receive LPT returns. While every effort has been made to match local-authority-owned properties with the LPT register, in a certain number of cases that matching process has not been successful and some tenants of these properties will have inadvertently received the return from the Revenue Commissioners. I am further advised that this particular possibility is covered extensively in the letter and the information booklet that accompanies the LPT return. The correspondence advises anyone who receives an LPT return from the Revenue Commissioners but is not the liable person in respect of a property of what steps he or she should take. It is important that the person does not ignore the return. This means that a tenant who receives a return in error should advise the Revenue Commissioners that he or she is a local authority tenant. This will allow the Revenue Commissioners to match the details to the local authority data and correct the LPT register.

I am advised by the Revenue Commissioners that local authority tenants who are receiving LPT returns in error are advising it of that fact, and it updates the register accordingly.


Where a local authority is liable for the LPT charge on residential properties it owns, I introduced changes to the 2012 Finance (Local Property Tax) Act that provide that the market value of any such property will be deemed to fall into the lowest valuation band of zero to €100,000 up to and including 2016. This will result in a LPT charge of €45 per property for 2013 and €90 per property per year for 2014 to 2016. It will be a matter for local authorities to decide whether to pass on the LPT liability to their tenants in the form of an increase in rent or whether they will absorb the liability without recourse to their tenants. In addition, the Act also gives local authorities until 1 January 2014 to pay the 2013 tax.


The Deputy also makes a reference to incorrect valuations. I am informed by the Revenue Commissioners that in the first instance the LPT is a self-assessed tax. This means that the property owner must decide the market value of his or her own property and make a return to Revenue. I have advised the House on previous occasions that Revenue is not issuing valuations of individual properties. In the absence of a national residential property valuation system, the valuation guidance developed by Revenue is designed to help property owners to assess the market value of their properties by giving them average, indicative values for their areas. Additional supports include the property price register provided by the Property Services Regulatory Authority at www.propertypriceregister.ie, the property sections of local newspapers and information from local estate agents and property websites which have been referenced by Revenue.

6:30 pm

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the Minister for his answer. I forgot to answer his earlier question. I am wearing a pin to steer clear of the Stickies, with whom we had a bad relationship for a long time.

My question to the Minister was related to local authority houses which had been over-valued. Can this be rectified? People are being told to contact the local authorities, but local authority officials are washing their hands of the matter and saying it is one for Revenue. People are not getting satisfaction in using the helpline. I am trying to bring this matter to the attention of the Minister. The properties of the people concerned should fall into the lowest band under the amended Act. Furthermore, in the first instance, the tax should go to the local authorities. There will be a bill of €90,000 from Revenue to Laois County Council this year. How is the council going to discharge it? There is no provision in its budget for it this year, as far as I am aware and I am unsure how it is to deal with it. One assumes it will be added to rents. Will the Minister clarify these two points for me?

What is the position on private houses? Let us suppose evidence is produced such as the documents I have before me, one of which is taken from the website the Minister mentioned, while the other is from a local estate agent. If my neighbours fill in the form and send it back and enclose such information, will that be good enough or must they obtain a valuation from a valuer? This is piling up on top of people. I put it to the Minister that many people in my area, in common with many others, including Meath East, are in negative equity, unemployed and in a serious state of distress, not only financial distress but also emotional and mental distress because of what is happening.

Let us put aside the rights and wrongs of property tax. Where there is a dispute or significant variation between the evidence and what Revenue is looking for in the letters, will the evidence suffice if a householder fills in the assessment and includes such evidence? Who will rectify the position in the case of local authority houses? The problem is, according to my information, that local authorities are not taking responsibility. This has come up several times throughout the country. Tenants are being informed by local authorities that it is a matter for Revenue and that they should deal with it where properties are being over-valued and the bill has been sent to them. Tenants are also being told by Revenue that they must not spoil the return. If Joe Bloggs in a council house receives a notice from Revenue, with the booklet and the letter, that following assessment the property is worth €157,000 or €160,000, he must comply. That is what people are being told on the helpline. Will the Minister clarify what they should do in that situation?

Photo of Michael NoonanMichael Noonan (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There are two questions. First, local authority tenants have no liability for local property tax. If someone receives a local property tax return in error, he or she should write to Revenue to point out that he or she has received it in error, explain that he or she is a local authority tenant of, say, Limerick County Council and give his or her tenant number. That is the end of the matter because he or she has no liability. The local authority in question has a liability for the house in which that person is a tenant, but because of the amendments we made, such properties will be in band 1 and the local authority will not have to pay the tax for 2013 until 2014. If the local authority is paying it for half the year, it will cost €45 and €90 for the full year. The liability to pay is on the local authority and there is no liability on the tenant. The only obligation on the tenant is to make the return, state he or she is a local authority tenant and quote the relevant number.

The second issue relates to valuations. The general rule is that what one is receiving from Revenue is guidance on values. Obviously, the guidance is on average values and applies across wide areas because there is no proper property register in Ireland, but there will be after this. In simple terms, the Deputy can put it to his constituents that if they make an honest return, they will be okay. If they make a return and state the value is between €100,000 and €150,000 and show evidence of five or six houses being sold between €100,000 and €150,000, they will be assessed at a figure of €125,000, the mid-point in the band, and it will be accepted by Revenue because they have made an honest return supported by evidence. However, people will get into difficulty if they receive the letter from Revenue and throw it on the dresser and do nothing about it. Revenue will then start chasing them subsequently. I appeal to people to make a return and an honest estimate. The figure provided by Revenue is purely for guidance purposes. The obligation is on an individual to self-assess and send in a valuation. Obviously, if evidence supports the valuation, it is an honest return.