Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Prior to the adjournment of this debate I was asking the Minister to answer at some point this evening the question that his Government has failed to answer despite this issue being debated across the country and to some extent, although severely curtailed, in this House. How are people in mortgage distress who are unable to pay their mortgages supposed to pay this charge? They simply cannot do it. The Minister has not answered that question.

We hear the Government talk about its desire to see people stay in their family homes but if it forces people to pay this tax when they cannot pay their distressed mortgages, more people will be forced into arrears and default. With the IMF breathing down the Minister's neck demanding that banks have the right to repossess homes, this is a recipe for more people to lose their family homes. How is any one of the 430,000 people who have no job, who are surviving on €188 per week, or someone surviving on the State pension, which is worth approximately the same amount, or even someone who has an additional modest occupational pension, supposed to pay this tax? It is a sure-fire recipe to drive people who are already living on the bread line into poverty, an unsustainable situation.

It is coming up to Easter, the time of miracles, if the Minister believes in all that kind of thing, but unless he is proposing the economic equivalent of the miracle of the loaves and the fishes for the whole country, how are people supposed to manage this? They simply cannot. The idea that deferral of payments is somehow an acceptable concession on the Minister's part to deal with this problem is preposterous because what he is offering people is years and years of being in the appalling situation of trying to pay back mortgages they cannot manage, and maybe if they can get out of this situation, they will be faced with a massive debt. Is that really what the Minister is offering to people?

I would like a response to the other important point I raised today, if possible. Our more general point has been that the alternative to this is a real wealth tax, levied on those with real wealth, the multi-millionaires, the billionaires, the people with very high earnings, in excess of €100,000, the many tens of thousands of people on high incomes, or an increase in tax on the super-profitable corporations which the Minister seems to view as sacrosanct. Whatever other sector of our society has to be battered with cuts, taxes and charges, the Minister refuses even to discuss the possibility of imposing an extra bit of tax on this super-profitable corporate sector. He has never really answered that question except to offer meaningless drivel about not taxing jobs, which I fail to understand when his taxes have helped sustain a level of mass chronic unemployment.

As if to add insult to injury, this is not even an equitable tax, within its own terms, on homes, which the Minister says it is, or on what he calls a property asset. In the definitions of liable residential property in the Bill that was rammed through under a guillotine before Christmas, the value of gardens and areas adjacent to the house will be calculated in working out the amount of property tax people have to pay, but if the area is over one acre the gardens or estates that may surround the homes of wealthy people with big houses or mansions will not be calculated. The mansions and the super-wealthy are protected. How can the Minister justify that? The value of a small bit of a garden or a back yard will be taken into account when calculating the tax the Minister intends to impose but the large gardens and sprawling estates that many wealthy people have with their large houses will not be liable.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy should be aware that this is a definition section.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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I know and I am pointing out that it is not, as the Government claims, a property tax because a considerable amount of the property of the very wealthy will not be taken into account. It is just a tax on the family home. Why does the Minister not just call it that? It will penalise people in a brutal and cruel way. We will discuss the details as we move through the Bill in the short time available but the Minister has never responded to the substantial issues put to him about the injustice of this tax and I wonder whether he will do so now or if this is why he has curtailed this debate in such an undemocratic way.

Joan Collins (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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I will not take too long because many of the points have been made already. I want to put on record my objection to this being called a local property tax because it is neither local nor based on property. A number of years ago, the Labour Party, in a coalition Government, introduced a tax on houses worth over a certain value. The wealthy went on strike and the property tax was done away with. This is not about extending or broadening the tax base.

I am sure the Minister has seen posters calling for meetings of the campaign against the whole tax and water tax. The meetings have been small to date, although some of been big, strong and angry. People see this as a draconian tax and feel they are living in an economic dictatorship where the Government rams taxes on ordinary people's homes. This is a home tax, it involves the place where people live and not assets.

The Minister made the point that he is trying to deal with some of these issues and that he listened to us the last time. The Minister listened to us because he realised, particularly with local authority housing, that many local authorities had not budgeted for this year in terms of introducing a home tax. They need this year to change their budgets for next year and then to increase the rents on people living in local authority houses. These are not assets, these people are renting their homes and not thinking about buying them. That exposes the lie about that point.

On 5 March, some tenants in Dublin City Council local authority housing will be paying an extra €19 per week in rent. Local authorities are looking to increase rent for local authority tenants. I have had discussions with people about maintenance and mould problems in people's local authority homes. Local authorities are pointing to the amount of money private landlords receive and the rents local authority tenants are paying. They are considering increasing rents. The €19 per week increase will be introduced on 5 March. There is also the issue of deferment to next year of the local authorities paying the home tax.

This will be the rock on which the Government perishes. People will be very angry and the campaign against the home and water taxes will call meetings. As the leaflets are dropped into people's homes after 11 March, there will be a big response in attendance at public meetings held to discuss how to change the situation.

Fianna Fáil is saying this is the wrong tax at the wrong time. If it was in government it would be saying it is the right tax at the right time. I do not take much notice of what that party says.

Stephen Donnelly (Wicklow, Independent)
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My first point concerns the process. Members of the Oireachtas Select Sub-Committee on Finance have three days, from morning to night, dealing with the Finance Bill. If the Government wanted to give this Bill substantial time at that select sub-committee, which includes Opposition Members and many excellent Government Members, it could be done. This is stifling parliamentary debate. The Minister should be careful because the more the Cabinet treats the people's Parliament with contempt, the more the people treat Deputies with contempt. The latest European trust barometers show the Irish people have the second lowest level in Europe of trust in their politicians. I ask the Minister to be careful when he does things like this because, ultimately, it hurts the Parliament and the country.

My second point concerns definitions. During Leaders' Questions, the Taoiseach stated, incorrectly, that gardens are not part of the valuation. We know that, up to one acre, gardens are included. I ask the Minister to correct that point because I would not like Government Deputies with incorrect information to vote in favour of a Bill.

My third point deals with the Bill. I do not have a problem with a local service charge as long as it goes fully to local services and as long as it takes accounts of the net value of the house, stamp duty paid, ability to pay and regional variation in price. I examined average house prices for three-bedroom semi-detached houses across the country. People in the Minister's constituency will pay 2.6 times less than people in my home town. One could argue it is because they are living in more expensive houses, which is true, but they are not living in bigger houses. Public sector employees are paid exactly the same amount. Recently, I was knocking on doors in Greystones and a garda came to the door at 7 p.m. He was very angry and he told me to come in. He pointed to a cheese toastie on the table and he said that is all he had left. He did not have money left after various cuts to overtime and pay. He could not afford to buy himself a proper dinner. The property tax will probably hit him with a bill of €500. He does not have it and he is not paid any more than anyone in the Minister's constituency or, interestingly, in the Taoiseach's constituency. People in those two constituencies will pay 2.6 times less than people in my home town. They are the same public sector workers paid the same wage with the same issues.

We will not get to all amendments tabled for this Bill. Can the Minister explain to the other members of the Oireachtas Select Sub-Committee on Finance why he is proceeding in this ways? This is bad policy. I do not understand why regional variation is not included, nor why ability to pay is not included. I would appreciate the Minister explaining to the sub-committee and to the other Deputies why he will force through legislation that does not account for aspects Members from the Minister's party have described as so unfair as to potentially cause a revolution in the country. That was the description of a very sensible Deputy.

Technically competent amendments have been submitted to this Bill. The amendments from the Technical Group, Sinn Féin and Fianna Fáil are technical, sensible amendments. Why is the Minister pushing something through that seems to fail a test of fairness and ability to pay on so many fronts?

Michael Healy-Rae (Kerry South, Independent)
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I, too, have serious reservations about the property tax. I highlighted the case of being asked to put a value on a farmhouse. The farmhouse could be located in the centre of the family farm and alongside sheds. How can someone realistically put a value on the property? While the house is a home to the family living in it, who else would want to purchase a house in the middle of a working farm? To me, the house is worthless on the open market. Who would want to be listening to cows roaring in the middle of the night without owning the cows? It is bad enough to have to go out to them when one owns them but one does not want to have to listen to someone else's cows. The farmyard activity that goes on in the yard ensures those houses are not saleable items on the open market. Therefore, they have no market value because no one would want them so those people should not be paying any tax. However, that has not been highlighted.

I know Deputies in the Chamber and other people, who are unfortunately not here, put up a great battle on the pyrite issue. I am delighted they won their battle. What about people suffering from radon? Why is there no exemption for them? On the pyrite issue, plenty Deputies were representing large amounts of people. They got a large weight going behind them. I am delighted they did and I compliment every one of them.

They all know who they are. Why did we not get a weight going behind us on the radon issue? The reason is that the people who have radon in their houses predominantly live in the countryside where limestone and naturally occurring features lead to their houses becoming poisoned by this gas. People have died in their homes, yet we are still going to charge them a property tax. It makes no sense. If people with pyrite-----

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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We are on the definition.

Michael Healy-Rae (Kerry South, Independent)
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Yes, but this point must be made. The Minister is a reasonable and fair man. My point is sound and solid. The houses in question are not being exempted because they are not located in Dublin, Cork or Limerick. It is unfair. Someone's family member might have died because of radon - I have experience of this - yet that person is now being asked to pay a property tax. Such people can only continue living in their homes because they pay a fee every year to ensure that the radon remains suppressed. The average seems to be between €150 and €350. Tonight, they are being told that they must pay a tax. It is unfair.

I thank the Leas-Cheann Comhairle for the opportunity to contribute. I wish to discuss this matter at another point and I will not take up other Deputies' time.

Séamus Healy (Tipperary South, Workers and Unemployed Action Group)
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There is no doubt in my mind but that this so-called local property tax is no such thing. It is solely a family home tax. I remind the Minister that, while in opposition, the Taoiseach told us that any attempt to tax the family home would be unfair. He may also have called it immoral. If I am not mistaken, the Minister made a similar comment while in opposition.

This family home tax will mainly hit middle and low-income families. As we know from credit union surveys and so on, such people have already been hit by austerity and have little or nothing left at the end of the month after paying their bills. According to the most recent of a number of surveys by the credit union movement, 1.8 million families each have only €50 left at the end of the month.

The section of the Act that exempts so-called gardens of more than 1 acre indicates that this is a family home tax. It disproportionately advantages wealthier people who have estates and large gardens around their large homes while disadvantaging people who live in normal semi-detached houses.

Even at this late stage, will the Minister agree to lift the guillotine on this debate? The guillotine prevents Deputies from carrying out their responsibilities as elected Members. There is a question over the constitutionality of the primary Act because of the manner in which it was passed before Christmas, in that it was driven through the House by the use of a guillotine and many amendments were not debated. Tonight, many amendments will again not be debated. Not just the Opposition, but also the Minister's colleagues on the other side of the House are being deprived of their constitutional right and responsibility to ensure that any legislation passed by the House is properly perused and dissected. The Government should take this important point on board. Will the Minister agree to lift the guillotine in light of the serious consequences that might result from its use in this debate as with the debate on the primary legislation?

Brendan Ryan (Dublin North, Labour)
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Section 1 reads: "In this Act "Principal Act" means the Finance (Local Property Tax) Act 2012." We have spent more than one hour debating the Title. For most of that time, we have listened to Opposition Deputies lamenting the fact that we do not have time to debate the amendments. I have a certain deal of sympathy for the Deputies in that regard, given the fact that 67 amendments have been tabled, but I have no sympathy for their tactics. These same tactics were applied during the debate on the main legislation before Christmas.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal South West, Sinn Fein)
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Nonsense.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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What about the Government's tactics?

Brendan Ryan (Dublin North, Labour)
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There are no amendments to section 1.

Clare Daly (Dublin North, Socialist Party)
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I do not see Deputy Ryan tabling amendments.

Brendan Ryan (Dublin North, Labour)
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There are 19 amendments to section 2. More than ample time was provided to get through a significant number of amendments, although I accept that we could not have got through them all.

Clare Daly (Dublin North, Socialist Party)
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If the Deputy stopped, we might.

Brendan Ryan (Dublin North, Labour)
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The people affected by pyrite in my constituency of Dublin North will not be sympathetic towards Deputies who have used delaying tactics. It was quite-----

Pearse Doherty (Donegal South West, Sinn Fein)
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Deputy Ryan voted to close down the debate.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy, please.

Brendan Ryan (Dublin North, Labour)
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It was quite achievable.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal South West, Sinn Fein)
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Deputy Ryan has some cheek. He voted to close the debate. It was disgraceful.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Ryan has the floor.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal South West, Sinn Fein)
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These are crocodile tears from a member of a party who voted to close down this debate.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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I know.

Brendan Ryan (Dublin North, Labour)
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I sat and listened to what was said. I expect the same courtesy. It was quite achievable for us to reach a point at which we could have dealt with section 3, which relates to the pyrite exemption. Last Friday, the Minister gave positive soundings as regards what he might do tonight to discuss options on how to address the issues raised last week. The people who have been waiting to see the colour of the Minister's money might not see it tonight because of the Opposition's tactics. I lament that.

Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Come on, Deputy. Spare us.

Michael Healy-Rae (Kerry South, Independent)
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Deputy Ryan voted for the guillotine.

Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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This is a load of nonsense.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal South West, Sinn Fein)
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It is his fault. He voted for it.

Clare Daly (Dublin North, Socialist Party)
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Deputy Ryan did this to his amendments.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Excuse me, please. I call on the Minister-----

Michael Healy-Rae (Kerry South, Independent)
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Deputy Ryan voted for it and now he is crying about it.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy, please.

Michael Healy-Rae (Kerry South, Independent)
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He is a disgrace.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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I call on the Minister to reply to this section.

Michael Healy-Rae (Kerry South, Independent)
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Vote for something and then complain about it.

Michael Noonan (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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As Deputies in the Opposition are free to use the time available as they see fit as long as the Leas-Cheann Comhairle deems it to be in order, I have no objection to how people use that time.

I will address the first suggestion that, since time is being restricted, there is insufficient time to debate the Bill. The Finance (Local Property Tax) Act 2012 was passed by the Dáil and the Seanad before Christmas and was signed by the President. That legislation is not before the House tonight. Rather, an amendment Bill of 16 sections is before the House. It is quite a short Bill. All of its sections address particular difficulties that Deputies and others who made representations to me saw with the Act. This Bill contains a series of amendments to improve the legislation arising from the debate on Second and Committee Stages before Christmas.

Yet, most of the speeches tonight - Members are entitled to use the time in whatever way they like - addressed the Bill which passed before Christmas and was signed by the President. There are 16 sections in the Bill and although we are on Committee Stage we have not addressed one amendment yet.

On the allegation that there is insufficient time for the Bill, we had Second Stage on Friday and some good contributions were made. I took a break for lunch but I was present for most of the debate on Friday. As the time moved on from 2.30 p.m. to 2.45 p.m. and 3 p.m. - with the debate due to end at 3.30 p.m. - if the Chief Whip had not put in Government Deputies to keep the debate going it would have collapsed.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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That is utterly untrue.

Joe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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It is not true.

Michael Noonan (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Members should check the record.

Joe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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That is not true.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Please.

Michael Noonan (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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The debate had collapsed.

Joe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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That is not true. On a point of order-----

Michael Noonan (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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There was no demand-----

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Please have respect, Deputy.

Joe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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The Minister must not be allowed to abuse the House.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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No interruptions, please Deputy. The Minister should be allowed to reply.

Joe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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The Minister must tell the truth.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy should have respect.

Joe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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I wanted 20 minutes but I got only ten because there was insufficient time. The Minister should withdraw his comment.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy, please.

Michael Noonan (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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There was no demand-----

Joe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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Other Deputies were in a similar position.

Michael Noonan (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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-----at the end of the debate from anybody to speak. The Chief Whip put in Deputies to keep the debate going.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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That is not true.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputies had their chance to speak.

Michael Noonan (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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That is the first point.

Joe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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It is completely wrong. We have just contradicted the Minister. He should take it back.

Michael Noonan (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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The second point is that a number of Opposition Deputies said the role of Parliament is to scrutinise legislation to make it better. The way to do this is on Committee Stage by way of amendment. We all know that, but as Deputy Ryan has pointed out, we have spent an hour on Second Stage speeches again and there is no scrutiny by the Opposition of the detail of the amendments, with some honourable exceptions. Deputy Catherine Murphy raised two issues but both of them are being dealt with in the text of the Bill, by amendments which arose from the previous debate. Deputy Clare Daly raised the issue of pyrite. That is also being dealt with in the Bill and when we get to that section we can have a good discussion on it. Deputy Stephen Donnelly raised a few issues but otherwise we had Second Stage speeches.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal South West, Sinn Fein)
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That is not true. I raised the issues of disabled persons and private homes. The Minister should be honest.

Michael Noonan (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Doherty made a Second Stage speech.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal South West, Sinn Fein)
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I did not. I raised issues.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister should be allowed to reply.

Michael Noonan (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Michael McGrath is always constructive. He raised an issue he had raised previously of having a second test to decide who should pay property tax. The Government decided that when the Bill is enacted the tax will be paid on the market value of the family home on the basis of self-assessment. Those that have an inability to pay may defer. The details of criteria relating to inability to pay are set out. Deputy Michael McGrath wishes to introduce another axis so that one would have an income axis and a value axis and where the two cross there is a liability to pay. The issue was decided and the President signed the Bill into law. He is going back to the original Bill and running something the Government has already decided. The Deputy is entitled to do that but the answer will be the same.

Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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It is an amendment Bill.

Michael Noonan (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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But the answer will be the same. Deputy Joe Higgins gave a speech that could be described only as an incitement to break the law. He encouraged people to break the law and to mobilise in their thousands to do so. If that is what Deputy Higgins suggests, that is fine but I was not elected to the House to break the law. We are law makers not law breakers.

Joan Collins (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Bad laws are made to be broken.

Michael Noonan (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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I do not think any Deputy in this House should incite the public to break the law. Deputy Pearse Doherty made no such incitement. He presented his protest in a fair and reasonable manner. He is absolutely opposed to the Bill but he suggested that the opposition to it should be legal. That is a fair point of view. He also personalised the payment of the tax by suggesting that the Taoiseach and I would have no problem in paying. He said that when the letter would drop on the Taoiseach's mat he would not have a problem in writing a cheque for it. We can return that in kind. I do not think Deputy Adams will have any problem either paying tax on his house in Louth or on his house in Donegal because he does not seem to have any problem paying a much higher property tax on his house in Belfast. If we want to get personal we can throw brick-bats across the House. On the other hand, I admire Deputy Doherty's quoting of Dick Mulcahy. I did not think he was a student of his. He referred to hanging out one's brightest colours. That would brighten any Fine Gaeler's heart to hear him quoting that tonight.

Deputy Clare Daly raised the issue of pyrite which she has pursued. A measure to deal with it is contained in the Bill. We can talk about that. We have previously made arguments against her suggestion that we could have an alternative source of taxation either by increasing corporation tax or income tax. Either of those taxes is a tax on employment and one of the worst problems we face is the high level of unemployment and the high level of structural unemployment.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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The Minister's tax policy has not helped them one bit.

Michael Noonan (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Boyd Barrett made another Second Stage speech. He has gone through all the issues he raised previously but he did not add anything further. Deputy Joan Collins acknowledged that we had made progress on local authority houses. I repeat that all tenants of local authority houses and tenants of houses rented by voluntary organisations, analogous to local authority tenants, will pay a maximum rate of the lower band. In other words, this year they will pay €45 if they are eligible and in a full year they will pay €90. That is the way it will remain for the next three years. Deputies sought that-----

Joan Collins (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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We looked for it to be zero.

Michael Noonan (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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All right. Deputy Stephen Donnelly referred to the inadequate debate. I have dealt with the issue. He also referred to the Taoiseach saying that gardens would not be liable for the tax. A garden in Mayo is different from a garden in Dublin. When one talks about a garden in the countryside one is not necessarily talking about the bit near the house. The definition is in accordance with what applies to capital gains tax and capital acquisitions tax. It is the curtilage of the house up to an acre. I live in a housing estate and the site is less than one eight of an acre. My neighbours up the road in the country part got planning permission on half an acre and others have up to an acre. It is not the case that one is exempt before or after an acre; it is the case that one is liable if one's curtilage is up to an acre, but beyond that it is not considered to be curtilage. That is in accordance with capital acquisitions tax and the capital gains tax.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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So mansions with huge gardens do not get valued for property tax. Millionaires get off.

Michael Noonan (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Donnelly's other objection was to the fact that this is not a local property tax. The bulk of the yield will be applied to local services. I accept there is differentiation between house values in expensive parts of Dublin and other parts of the country but there is a differential also between houses in many parts of Limerick, Cork and Galway as well and in other parts of the country. That gives rise to the question of why the value of such houses is high and that of other houses is low.

Stephen Donnelly (Wicklow, Independent)
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Sure.

Michael Noonan (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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The answer relates to the location of the house and the level of services and amenities enjoyed. The level of services and amenities is by and large provided by the taxpayer. Obviously if one is on a Luas line one is better off than someone who is down the country who is dependent on a bus service that operates only three days a week.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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All the buses are gone.

Stephen Donnelly (Wicklow, Independent)
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Local authorities do not provide transport.

Michael Noonan (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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We have dealt with local authority houses in the context of Deputy Joan Collins's contribution. Whether a local authority house is in Dublin or down the country it will be in the lower tax rate.

Joan Collins (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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They should not pay anything at all.

Michael Noonan (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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One will pay €45 this year and €90 in a full year and that will be maintained. Apart from values being in accordance with local services, and services being applied at a local level, the bulk of the yield-----

Joe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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Who pays for those services? It is the taxpayers whom the Minister is hitting again.

Michael Noonan (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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There is a big subsidy to CIE.

Joe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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It is the same taxpayers.

Michael Noonan (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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The bulk of the yield will be spent by the local authorities in whose functional area the tax is gathered. As well as that, from 2015, discretion will be vested in the elected members of local authorities to vary the tax up or down. I envisage a situation that in areas where there is a high property tax it will be an election issue when candidates go knocking on doors to reduce the tax and in other areas if the tax is low there will be pressure to increase it in order to provide extra services. We are talking about repairing a flaw in the tax system which goes back to the abolition of rates in 1977. We must start to move towards a system of local government where local government raises the tax, spends the tax and is accountable to the people who elect it locally.

The move on that is to vest the power in the local authorities to vary the tax by plus or minus 15%. We will see how that goes and what subsequent Governments will do but we are building a base so that we have real local government which is funded and can provide services. Deputies might not agree with that but the arguments I am making are intellectually sound and valid. We are not pretending to be doing anything other than what we are doing.

Joan Collins (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Crucifying workers again.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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How does one pay while on social welfare? The Minister has not answered that question. How does one pay if one cannot pay one's mortgage?

Michael Noonan (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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If somebody's sole income is social welfare, the deferral limits are €12,000 for a single person and €25,000 for a couple. On top of that is 80% of the interest paid on the mortgage. There is no social welfare payment that I know of which is in excess of those figures.

Joan Collins (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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They can only defer the tax.

Michael Noonan (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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The people for whom social welfare is their sole income may defer. We have done the calculations. If one was to defer for 20 years and pay the 4% interest at simple interest, one would owe less than 5% of the total value of the house by the time 20 years was up and whatever transaction would pass the house onto the next generation occurred. The deferral system is built in and of course, it protects people who cannot pay but we want to be fair. For too long we have had a situation where the burden was placed very heavily on the shoulders of those who pay and seem to pay for everything. On this occasion, I do not want a situation, as I said in the Seanad, where 70% of people in a former local authority estate are tenant purchasers and are liable for the property tax while 30% are tenants of the local authority and are not liable at all. That is not fair.

The Deputies are good at their jobs on the ground. I have a fair idea of the work they put in but if they know what is happening with housing policy in recent years, they will know that local authorities are buying in the private housing estates. How can I introduce a tax where everybody on a mortgage in the estate is paying the property tax while those who are tenants of the local authority are not paying anything?

Pearse Doherty (Donegal South West, Sinn Fein)
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The tenants are not buying any house. They do not own the house.

Michael Noonan (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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I do not want to be hard on anybody and that is why the maxima to which I referred apply. This is a good and sensible tax as I think many Deputies privately recognise.

Deputy Michael Healy Rae made a number of points but I did not fully understand the one regarding people living in houses with radon gas problems. Perhaps the Deputy could give me a note on it and I will check it out for him.

Michael Healy-Rae (Kerry South, Independent)
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I could give the Minister a lift down to Kerry.

Michael Noonan (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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I am not sure what point the Deputy was making but obviously if a house is impaired, it is relevant. It is similar to the point I made about flooding along the Tolka, which other Deputies raised. If a house is subject to flooding, it is reasonable when one is returning one's self-assessment to the Revenue Commissioners to allow for that fact, which takes the value down. However, I disagree with people who say a house is worth nothing. I think it was Deputy Healy Rae who said that if one was kept awake at night by the neighbour's cows looking over the wall, that would impair the value of one's house. It would, of course, and if there is a silage pit in the yard, it would impair the value of one's house too but to say the house is worth nothing is ridiculous. I have met no farmer yet who offered to give away his house to me.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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The Minister would take it off him.

Michael Noonan (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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A house is an expensive thing to run and if it was worth nothing, I would be meeting them on the road every day and they would be saying "I have a house for you Michael, here it is for you, it is only costing me money". We should not exaggerate the position. Everything has value and all we are asking is that people put a value on it. Obviously, if a residence is seriously impaired by the activity of the householder, whether that be farming, business or anything else, which reduces the value, that will be reflected in the self-assessment. It is up to people to decide what value to attribute to the house and they will get guidance from the Revenue Commissioners.

Deputy Seamus Healy made a general speech and made a lot of good points. He challenged the constitutionality of the legislation. It is generally known by Deputies that no Minister can introduce legislation unless he receives a stamped copy from the Attorney General. The stamp means that in the opinion of the AG, the Bill is constitutional. If anybody wants to challenge the constitutionality, that is what the courts are for but the Attorney General has evaluated this and has said it is constitutional and I have no doubt whatsoever but that it is so. Deputy Healy did not express the reasons why he thought it might be unconstitutional.

Séamus Healy (Tipperary South, Workers and Unemployed Action Group)
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I most certainly did.

Michael Noonan (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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He said it might be because of process.

Séamus Healy (Tipperary South, Workers and Unemployed Action Group)
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I said the Bill was guillotined which did not give public representatives any opportunity to debate ---

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Healy, please have respect for the Member in possession.

Michael Noonan (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Does the Deputy know of any case where legislation was deemed to be unconstitutional because Opposition Deputies did not have enough time to debate it?

There were assumptions on the part of some Deputies that adapting a house to enable a disabled person to live there would increase the value of that house. That is not true because in many cases, the adaption of a house to suit disabled persons will reduce the value and in some cases, quite substantially. Deputies will be familiar, from their constituency work, with this and cannot tell me that the changes that have to be made, of necessity, to suit disabled persons increase the value of houses, if Deputies have ever been in a house that has been adapted. Of course, that will be reflected in the valuation and the Revenue Commissioners are reasonable people. I cannot see them pursuing anybody who explains that the value of their house has gone down because it had to be adapted for use by a disabled person.

The last point I would like to make concerns people's challenge to the fact that the Revenue Commissioners were being entrusted with the collection of this tax. Revenue is the State agency that is responsible for collecting taxes so who better to collect it? One of the problems with the flat-rate tax was that it was inadequately collected, despite the best efforts of those that were given the responsibility. Revenue is setting about this in a systematic way and is giving very clear information. Deputies have made some good points but we have before us an amendment Bill with 16 sections. If we were dealing with the terms of that Bill rather than listening to a whole series of Second Stage speeches again, we would be making more progress.

Tom Fleming (Kerry South, Independent)
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I support the call by Deputy Healy Rae ---

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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By the way, we are on the definitions section of the Bill, section 1.

Tom Fleming (Kerry South, Independent)
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I wish to support the Deputy's amendment.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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This is not an amendment. We will come to that later. We are on section 1.

Tom Fleming (Kerry South, Independent)
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The radon problem in County Kerry has had very serious consequences in the last ten years, in particular. It has claimed a number of lives, for instance, and is seriously affecting the general health of people who are unfortunate to be living in areas affected by the gas. Time will tell regarding the overall implications for the general public who have to live in houses affected by radon. It is a modern phenomenon because of the high standard of housing and of insulation in particular. Given the huge cost of energy and of oil in particular, people have a very high level of insulation in their homes but the side effect of this is that the radon is trapped in the houses. People are very unfortunate to be in this situation. Perhaps their houses are not worthless, as the Minister has said, but they are hugely devalued, which is the kernel of the problem. Some mechanism will have to be worked out to make allowances for a large proportion of the population of County Kerry. Remediation measures can be carried out but they are not 100% effective and are very costly as they rely on electricity to power fans to extract the air.

There is a very serious disincentive in the Bill to carry out remediation works or general improvements in so far as they could raise the value of the house, which obviously has implications for the householder.

For example, this may happen if people need to build extensions to family homes. This tax will be a significant deterrent. The construction industry is currently on its knees and we should not be putting any impediments in the way of people trying to create activity in building. We need to examine the matter carefully, as every job, no matter how small, can be priceless because of the high unemployment rate in the country. This tax will be a serious deterrent.

I even have reservations about the high valuation and tax rate on mansions. Mr. Michael Flatley came to Castle Hyde in Fermoy, and he deserves to be applauded for what has been done there. He is a major asset to the area and has boosted the economy by engaging builders and other workers. We should encourage such activity. If we are to get in foreign direct investment, we cannot put obstacles in their way. Many of these people demand larger houses because parent company employees, such as directors or managers, may visit and they need to be entertained. It is a ridiculous measure.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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I will comment on the section and the Bill in general. It is fine for the Minister, Deputy Noonan, to wax lyrical about the Dodder and the amendments tabled by Opposition Deputies. We all appreciate his good humour and can go back to when he was a Minister 20 years ago to recall "Scrap Saturday" and the humour and sarcasm in that. I respect what the Minister is trying to do but I do not respect the way the Bill has been guillotined and forced through.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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This is a definition section.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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There are 63 amendments to be discussed in such a short time, which is extremely unfair. On the night this tax was mooted in the budget, where was the Minister, Big Phil the enforcer, but in Doha at some kind of a world conference. That is how little he perceives the trauma being experienced by people. The Minister mentioned houses flooded by the Dodder but there are hundreds of houses threatened in Clonmel all the time whose owners cannot get insurance. Large sums of money have been spent but those people have not been recognised by the Minister.

Michael Noonan (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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They have the same recognition.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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People whose houses are affected by radon have not been recognised. I welcome the consideration given by the Minister to the voluntary housing sector, etc. but the Bill is draconian nevertheless. Giving the Revenue Commissioners power to enter people's homes is a retrograde step. I have stated in other debates that I am self-employed and I am used to dealing with the Revenue Commissioners in my premises because I operate a business from the home. That is fine.

The vast majority of home owners are in negative equity and are in appalling debt positions, leading to awful trauma, including marriage break-ups and many suicides. The Minister is aware of that. Nevertheless, we expect these people to get letters in the next week or two from the Revenue Commissioners. Anybody who gets a letter from the Revenue Commissioners would regard it as serious, and people may not know what to make of a house tax, self-assessment and valuation. These people have many bills already, which they cannot pay, and to get another like this amounts to heavy-handed tactics. The coalition in the 1980s was accused of this in another way.

I have argued more than once that the Minister's party and the Labour Party are punishing the electorate for having the audacity not to give them a turn in government for 14 years. The Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Shatter, mentions the 14 years every day. The public shares this view that members of Fine Gael and the Labour Party were so long in the wilderness - some Members are now approaching pension age - that the Government has decided to teach the public a lesson. On the front page of a newspaper the Minister, Big Phil the enforcer, indicated he would teach the media a lesson.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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You should use the term "Minister".

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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Of course. I always call him the Minister. He is the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government but he was in Doha when we discussed the matter in the budget. That is how much he cared about the ordinary people and the home owners in a perilous position. The Taoiseach did not help this morning when Deputy Boyd Barrett tried to raise the issue. He scoffed, laughed, joked and sneered about standing at some tree, looking at a house in the distance with tinted glasses. I did not know what he was talking about. The Taoiseach must return to reality quite fast as he and some of his Ministers - although not all - are on an ego trip. The adrenaline has been evident since this time two years ago, when the parties got into power.

The Government parties must face reality or they will find out the feelings of the public. I hate mentioning this on the day when the by-election writ was moved following the death of Deputy Shane McEntee, who was a friend. The Government will get answers if the letters arrive before the canvassing leaflets. I suppose they will not arrive before the leaflets. Maybe there will be a phone call to the Revenue Commissioners to back away. The enforcers are in charge and the little people do not matter any more. The people up the tree-lined avenues with daffodils interest those enforcers. They are the mansions. My colleague, Deputy Tom Fleming, mentioned Michael Flatley, who is nimble-footed and a good little dancer. The Government representatives will be dancing in public when they meet the people because they are waiting. I hope the Government has good dancers and runners because they will be getting it. I do not say this for fun but people are in a perilous position.

I was in the home village of the Chief Whip in Wexford last night. The people there cannot find him because he is too busy in Dublin, or so he says. They will find him because he will have to knock on doors again. The property tax will meet the Government in the face and it will not be a case of "Mary, how are you, how are you doing, how are things?" It will get its answers.

The Minister's party has always treated the ordinary people with disdain, even going back to the time of shirts of a different colour. I will not mention them but he knows what I am talking about. The party has not changed its spots, which is a pity.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy should stick to the Bill.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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People are making an effort to work their way out of problems and they are willing to pay. Nevertheless, they cannot take this as they will be driven completely to penury. The Revenue Commissioners and banks will be after these people, along with sheriffs and illegal bandits recovering debts. Those bandits are not subject to any Garda clearance. If a person is to work in a crèche or on a FÁS scheme sweeping the road, there must be Garda clearance-----

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy is moving away from the section.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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We are certainly moving away from it and I am very sorry for that. I beg your indulgence.

Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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It was only in the last minute.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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The Taoiseach did not help today, which is a pity. Is mór an trua é. The public are watching and it is a shame to see a line of Ministers scoffing and laughing at this. The scoffing will be on the other side of their faces soon enough. They will get the first taste of that when they head to the plains of Meath.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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I call Deputy Wallace.

Mick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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I put my hand up because I thought we had moved to the amendments. I will speak to the amendments at the appropriate time.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal South West, Sinn Fein)
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We are dealing with section 1 before moving on. The Minister has indicated that this will provide for local services, giving the impression that there is additional money. Those who follow spokespersons on finance know this is not additional money for local authorities, and a new stream of funding will replace a line of money they already had.

The Minister mentioned that everybody must pay their fair share with local authority housing, arguing it would be unfair if somebody in a local authority house were not to pay a fair share. The Minister should know that the Bill does not put a charge on a local authority housing tenant but rather on the local authority. The Minister's assumption is that the charge will be passed to local authority tenants, despite the fact that they do not own the home but rather pay rent for the home in which they live.

The Minister may be aware that a number of local authorities have passed resolutions relating to what is called a "section 140". The issuing of rents is a function of the management but this takes the power from the manager.

A number of local authorities have passed section 140 motions that compel the manager legally not to pass on the charge. I understand those motions have been supported by the parties in government at local authority level. I want the Minister to deal with that because he has made the assumption that the money is additional money for local authorities. I expect many local authorities will be passing the same motions in the forthcoming weeks and months. In Monaghan, for example, Councillor Matt Carthy proposed a motion and it has been accepted by the council. Management says its hands have been legally tied such that it cannot now pass on the charge to tenants. Therefore, the charge will be a charge on the local authority that will take the money from them. On the one hand, some of the money will go to the local authorities but, on the other, it will be taken by the Government as there will be reduced funding. With regard to local authority housing stock, where management cannot pass on the charge to the local authority tenants - it should not be passed on in any case - money will actually have to be given back to the State. They will be at a net loss. Could the Minister explain the position on this?

While the Minister is partially correct that the adaptation of a house could devalue it, particularly if kitchens, for example, are lowered for a wheelchair user, I know from experience of cases where adaptation was required for severely disabled or paralysed people. I refer not only to adaptation but also to extensions. An additional room, such as a bathroom, might have to be built on, or slopes or ramps may have to be created. This costs money. If we had time to tick-tack on this issue I believe the Minister would amend the legislation. I do not believe it is his intention to have an impact on the people I describe.

I tabled my amendment to the original legislation. I welcome the fact that the amended Bill goes a certain distance but if the Minister considers what he has done he will note that people who got grants to adapt their houses will have the value of the grant subtracted from the value of their property. It will be of benefit. However, people who did not get grants will be in different circumstances. Let us consider the example of Joe and Mary. Joe, who was unemployed and got a grant of €10,000 to adapt his house under the housing adaptation grant scheme, will be able to subtract €10,000 from the value of his house when calculating its value and pay the charge on the remainder. Mary, who was working and did not get the adaptation grant because she was means tested, thus forcing her to pay the €10,000 from her own pocket, will not have this sum subtracted from the value of her house. Joe, who got the money from the State to carry out the adaptation, will have €10,000 subtracted from the value of his house, whereas Mary, who did not get a cent from the State because she was means-tested, will not get anything. It does not make sense. This is a mistake either by the Minister's officials or himself and it should be corrected. While I realise he will not address this now, I ask him to address it in the Seanad.

Dara Murphy (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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Before the Joint Committee on Finance and the Public Service, the Chairman of the Revenue Commissioners referred to houses at risk of flooding and, more specifically, to insurance cover. The Minister and other Deputies referred to this also. As the Minister will be aware, significant work is planned and ongoing with regard to flood prevention measures. While he indicated that the circumstances of houses whose values may be reduced by virtue of their occupants not having insurance or their living in a flood-risk area may be taken into account, will he clarify that if flood-prevention measures are put in place in some years, thus increasing house values, the former flood risk and lack of insurance availability will be taken into account?

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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I call Deputy Mick Wallace, who may speak on section 1.

Mick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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I will speak as much on that section as anyone else.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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I ask the Deputy to do his best.

Mick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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I will do my very best, bearing in mind that I probably will not have a chance to speak again on this legislation.

If two or three houses in an estate of 40 or 50 have been certified as having pyrite, it is very probable that several others will have a pyrite problem as the same stone will have been used. The ground for each house is not prepared every second day; houses are built together. All houses in affected estates will have received the same treatment, with the same stone. The untreated houses have the same problems coming down the tracks as those already exposed as having pyrite. Aside from the fact that under no circumstances could one dream of selling such a house, unless it is given a certificate proving beyond all doubt that it does not have pyrite, the chance that many of the houses have pyrite is great because the stone will have come from the same quarry and will have been used around the same time. It is completely unfair on the owners. The houses are houses that one would be hard set to give away, unlike the ones to which the Minister referred. Selling a house in an estate where there is pyrite is just about impossible today. I ask the Minister to consider the people caught in this dilemma. It is grossly unfair to expect them to pay a property tax on a property that is in a very difficult set of circumstances through no fault of their own.

Michael Healy-Rae (Kerry South, Independent)
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I want to clarify a matter for the Minister. He stated he was unsure about what I had said. I said there is no difference between a home affected by pyrite and one affected by radon.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy has tabled an amendment on this under section 2.

Michael Healy-Rae (Kerry South, Independent)
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I have but if I do not use the opportunity now to speak about this I will not be able to do so because the Government has imposed a guillotine. I will use the opportunity. We cannot be stopped because there is a race to the bottom as quick as we can go. We must get in our say because we will not get one later. There will be a vote and that will be the end of it.

I wish to stress my point to the Minister and I will put it in writing. I do not take on board the Minister's comment on the worth of houses because one can have a house that is worth nothing. Would I, the Minister or any other Member want to buy a home in which somebody has died because of an extant problem with radon? Those affected must pay money every year to try to keep the badness, the gas, at bay. Nobody would want to live in such a house. If I were given one for nothing, I would not want to take it. I would not want anyone in my family to live in one, nor would the Minister or any other Member.

What I propose is not opening the floodgates such that thousands of houses will be implicated. Not many houses are affected by radon. The Government should make the same exception for those affected as it made for those whose houses are affected by pyrite. I again compliment the campaigners. What I am trying to do is put right a wrong. The Minister should state he will make an allowance and that there is no difference in the circumstances of those whose houses are affected by pyrite and those whose houses are affected by radon.

I have great respect for the Taoiseach but he gave me an ill-informed answer one morning on this issue. Just as Deputy Mick Wallace said pyrite is in the actual building, the Taoiseach said radon is coming from the ground up, thus making the circumstances different. I put it to the Minister that it is all the same; if the house is bad, the house is bad, be it affected by pyrite or radon. If a house is worthless and cannot be sold on the open market because somebody would not want to buy it, surely to God the Minister can take this on board, make an allowance and accept my amendment.

Noel Grealish (Galway West, Independent)
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In the next two weeks, millions of people will receive letters from the Revenue, 60% of whom have never received a letter from the Revenue before. People do not like getting letters from the Revenue Commissioners and that will have a major effect on people. When they read the small print, it will put the fear of God into many of them, particularly the elderly. I am dealing with a 93 year old lady who is afraid of this letter arriving and who has rung me three times about it.

The Bill states that if a person undervalues his house, he will be charged interest and penalties when the house is sold. What about those people who have never broken the law and who do not want to get into trouble with the Revenue Commissioners? If they overvalue their houses for the property tax and their houses are sold for less than the value they estimated, will they get a rebate from the local authority?

Every Minister and the Taoiseach has said this is for services within the local community such as roads, lights and footpaths. What about those who live in housing estates governed by management companies who must pay up to €1,000 in management fees? They will be caught for the property charge as well. In that case, local authorities should take these estates in charge and cover the costs of services in them. The residents should not have to carry the double burden of management fees and local authority property charges when, technically, the local authority will not give them any services. They must pay for the water coming in and going out when water metering is put in place later this year.

Not far from me in Galway, 15 houses were flooded in 2009. Only one of those houses can receive any insurance. I raised the issue with the Minister, and he advised me to go to Michael Kemp, the insurance regulator, but he told me he could not do a thing about it, that he had no control over this. Even I, given where I live, received a letter last week from the insurance company and if I am flooded, half of Galway city will be flooded. I was informed that I will not receive flood cover. I do not mind and I wrote back to ask what the insurance company will knock off my house if it would not cover me for flood damage because I know it will not be flooded.

These houses are now worthless, as Deputy Dara Murphy has said. If the owners went to sell them, no one would buy them. I compliment the OPW on doing tremendous flood alleviation work in the locality but it will not give anyone the confidence to buy one of those houses. Those people must be given some consideration because they live in houses that are worthless.

Dara Murphy (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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I did not say they are worthless. I said they would be worth more when the flood prevention measures are put in place.

Noel Grealish (Galway West, Independent)
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I am saying they are worthless.

Stephen Donnelly (Wicklow, Independent)
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One of the most contentious issues is that people in areas like Dublin and Wicklow will pay several times more than people in the Minister's own constituency. In his answer to questions on that issue, on which I have tabled amendments, the Minister said the reason those people pay more is because the higher value of the house is a function of higher local services. The Minister and I both know that not only is that not the case, the opposite is the case. The councils do not pay more money to provide better services in areas where the house prices are higher. The spend per person for Dublin City Council is less than anywhere else. Were we to follow the Minister's logic, I would agree that the money should be used to pay for local services but that is not what will happen. I appeal to the Minister to apply his own logic to this and if he is going to charge people, to charge them for the services provided and do not charge people in Dublin, Wicklow and other urban areas several times more for services that not only do not cost several times more, but cost less because of economies of scale.

Michael Noonan (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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There are many questions and I will try to get through them and be as helpful as I can.

Michael Healy-Rae (Kerry South, Independent)
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If the Minister lifted the guillotine he would be fine.

Michael Noonan (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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The big difference between pyrite damaged homes and homes that have a radon gas problem is that according to the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government, the radon gas problem can be remediated at very low cost, whereas pyrite is far more expensive. I rely on the technical information on housing from the Department and the note it provided on radon gas states that high radon levels in homes are easy to identify and, once identified, are relatively simple to fix. The testing of houses for radon is relatively straightforward and non-invasive. It is also inexpensive, with tests costing around €56. If the radon levels are found to be below the natural reference levels, no further action is necessary. Where radon levels are found to be high, the installation of an active radon sump is the most common and effective remediation method in Ireland. A sump can be installed within a day and with little disruption to the house as the work is carried out outside the house. This method can reduce the highest radon concentrations typically by 90%. An alternative approach is to increase indoor ventilation, which can reduce radon levels by up to 50%, thus being suitable for homes with up to twice the national reference level.

The national radon control strategy for Ireland is the most appropriate way to address the issue of radon contamination and I do not feel it appropriate to provide exemptions from the local property tax to cater for this issue. The local property tax is a self-assessment tax based on the market value of property. In the first instance, it will be a matter for the liable person to calculate the tax due based on his or her assessment of the market value of property. It is not similar to pyrite and according to the Department it can be remediated at very low cost.

Michael Healy-Rae (Kerry South, Independent)
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The Minister should tell the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government that I have a letter on this topic from a man whose wife died because of radon in his house. I am sorry for interrupting but it is very emotional issue when someone dies in a house and the Department does not seem to understand that.

Michael Noonan (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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I know it is emotional but according to the technical people in the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government, if there are high levels of radon in a house, they can be fixed at low cost. A test to establish the level of radon in a house can be done for €56. This is a different case from pyrite, and while there will be an exemption for homes affected by pyrite, there will be no exemption from radon. Of course, if someone thinks the problem with radon has significantly reduced the value of his home, that will be reflected in the value he attributes to the house and if he puts a short note to that effect on the return, that will be taken into account.

Deputy Fleming suggested householders will be deterred from building extensions because of the property tax but that will not be the case. The initial valuation in 2013 will stand for three years so any extension built during that period will not lead to an increase in the payment in that time. It is also unlikely the full cost of an extension would be added to the full market value of a property, even in the next valuation period of 2016 because extensions, as we know, do not always enhance the value of houses. Frequently, they do not enhance by the amount the extension costs.

Deputy Mattie McGrath mentioned the Revenue interfering in the by-election process. He probably did not mean that as a serious charge but I must put on record that Revenue is statutorily independent in carrying out its duties and there can be no question of interfering with the basis on which it administers the tax system in the context of by-elections or any other circumstances.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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The Minister did not hear me.

Michael Noonan (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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I heard Deputy Mattie McGrath all right.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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On a point of order, I said, "Would the Revenue be interfered with by the enforcers?" That is what I said. It is a different question.

Michael Noonan (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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If I stated if something was going to be interfered with, it implies that the person going to be interfered with is willing to be interfered with.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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It does not.

Michael Noonan (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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That was the charge Deputy Mattie McGrath made.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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No.

Michael Noonan (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Mattie McGrath suggested that in a particular constituency the Revenue will hold back the assessment letters which are due to go out because there was a by-election pending in it. The Revenue does not operate that way.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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I know they do not.

Michael Noonan (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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One of the best things we have in the country is a public service that is above reproach. In particular, the Revenue has very high standards.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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When one reads the headlines in the newspaper, one would wonder.

Michael Noonan (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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They have very high standards indeed.

Joe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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If that is the case, they should not be given the poison chalice that is the property tax.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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Yes. The Minister is dropping them into it.

Michael Healy-Rae (Kerry South, Independent)
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The Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government stated he would get the media.

Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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He stated he would put manners on them.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Please.

Paudie Coffey (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Healy-Rae was complaining about them last week.

Michael Noonan (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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All the Deputies on the Dáil committee last week were full of their praise for the chairperson of the Revenue Commissioners.

Michael Healy-Rae (Kerry South, Independent)
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What?

Paudie Coffey (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Healy-Rae was complaining about the media.

Michael Healy-Rae (Kerry South, Independent)
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I did not say I was going to get them.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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Take it easy there.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Have respect for the Minister.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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Deputy Coffey should have respect for him.

Michael Noonan (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Dara Murphy raised the issue of flooding and flood relief works. The value may rise considerably after relief works are carried out. However, if value was previously self-assessed honestly, there will be no comeback from the Revenue. There will be no retroaction activity by the Revenue on this. Indeed, values determined now will be valid until 2016. If one's flooding problem is remediated in September next and the value of one's home rises, the value at which one has self-assessed will prevail until the next valuation date of 2016. That is an important point to clarify.

Deputy Mattie McGrath talked about a couple of issues. He made many points. He talked about the colour of people's shirts.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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They will not have a shirt after this. They will be bareback.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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The Minister had better give them a Skoda, a second-hand one.

Michael Noonan (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Pearse Doherty raised the issue of local authorities. He is correct. The Bill states that the charge will be a charge on the local authority and then, if the local authority decides to absorb that charge, and some local authorities still are in a position to absorb charges, then it is free to do so. If, on the other hand, the local authorities want to pass it on, if it is a reserve function, it will be a responsibility of the elected members to do so.

When I was a member of a local authority, it was a reserve function. If that has been transferred to management, or transferred over and back, what is local government about?

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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They will get rid of that too so.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Why is the Minister cutting them?

Michael Noonan (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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We can wash our hands of it if those we elect to local authorities are not capable of making decisions along these lines.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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The Government is getting rid of all the town councils.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal South West, Sinn Fein)
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The Minister is merely turning them into debt collectors.

Michael Noonan (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Somebody inquired about management fees. The requirement to pay management fees is not relevant in determining liability to property tax. Properties in managed estates to which such fees apply would have been purchased by their owners in the knowledge that they would be taking on a commitment to partake in and fund the management of the estate, and that it was the intention that many such estates would not be taken in charge by local authorities, nor would it be appropriate for local authorities to do so. Management fees in these estates often include services such as refuse collection, maintenance of common areas-----

Noel Grealish (Galway West, Independent)
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Not in housing estates, maybe in apartments.

Michael Noonan (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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-----and a sinking fund for certain repairs to buildings. These are costs which home owners and other households themselves must fund for their own-----

Noel Grealish (Galway West, Independent)
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In housing estates, that does not cover refuse collection.

Michael Noonan (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Some do.

Noel Grealish (Galway West, Independent)
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For apartments, not housing.

Michael Noonan (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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All right.

Deputy Wallace made the point that if some houses in a housing estate are affected by pyrite then the whole estate should be exempted because the same conditions would reveal right through the estate. That is also a matter for the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government to decide. Some briefing notes I have seen from that Department would suggest that different consignments of gravel from different sources were used in building in different parts of estates and the condition would not apply throughout the estate. The Department also made the point that the weather conditions at the point of pouring the foundations would have made a difference in many estates. I am not on top of the technical issues, but this is the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government advice.

I am about to enact, with the help of the House, an amendment to exempt pyrite-damaged houses and the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government would have to operate to that mandate. The manner in which the Department makes the exemptions will be a matter for it, but the guidelines are clear. Whether that means exempting whole estates or portions of the estates, that will be a matter for the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government.

That Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government, from the flat-rate charge which it was responsible for collecting, has exempted many ghost estates and quite a good many estates around the country. That Department will follow the same procedure but the decision will be for that Department in accordance with the Act.

Mick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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It would be very unusual for stone to come from two different quarries for such an estate. That would not be something in which builders would normally be engaged. Nine times out of ten-----

Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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They were engaged in all sorts.

Mick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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-----it would come from the same quarry.

Michael Noonan (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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It is also true that there are estates that were built by several builders. In my city, there are estates where the first 70 houses were built by one builder, it went on again and a new guy came in, and then another guy came in. It would be treated as the one estate-----

Mick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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I would agree with that-----

Michael Noonan (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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-----but if there were different builders, it is reasonable to expect that the builders sourced their supplies from different sources.

Mick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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If the Minister takes-----

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Would Deputy Wallace stand up and say what he has to say?

Mick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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The Minister should check the estates that we are discussing where some of the houses are deemed to have pyrite to see how many of them were built through by the same builder. Where they were, the Minister can take for granted that the builder used the same stone. In the case of those who have pyrite, their neighbours might not have got it yet but they will get it in time.

Michael Noonan (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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What I am saying is there is a mandate for exemption being enacted tomorrow in the Seanad and the application of that to see who is exempt will be a matter for the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government.

Also, one must remember that the tax is a self-assessment tax and people will put a value on their house when they are returning their form to the Revenue Commissioners.

Clare Daly (Dublin North, Socialist Party)
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Who will pay for the tax?

Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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On a point of order-----

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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I hope it is a point of order.

Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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It is an important one. In view of the fact that the Leas-Cheann Comhairle is required to put the question in a couple of minutes time and in order to allow Deputies move amendments which the Minister may wish to accept, does the Minister intend to signal to the House his willingness to accept any of the 67 amendments that have been put forward by Members? In order that they can be moved, the Minister might wish to advise the House whether he intends to accept any of them.

Michael Healy-Rae (Kerry South, Independent)
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Accept away.

Barry Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Will the Minister respond to the point of order?

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Can the Minister respond? I have no information on that.

Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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If they are going to accept any, we must move them.

Michael Noonan (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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I am not accepting amendments without debate.

Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Let us continue the debate so.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Doherty has a question.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal South West, Sinn Fein)
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I think everybody on this side of the House would welcome an extension of time. There is nothing else, bar we go home, after this. All those here would not object if the Government was to propose even a short amendment on time as we are getting into the amendments.

As the cut-off time is in the next minute, can I ask a question about the tax clearance certificates? In the letters that will be starting to go through the letter boxes on Monday next, there will be a form on which people will have to fill in their assessment or return to the Revenue. Under this Act and the previous Act, there is the issue of those who are self-employed. Indeed, Members of the Oireachtas would not get a tax clearance certificate if they do not pay this charge. Can the Minister explain to the House, for somebody who does not send back a return and for whom the Revenue deducts the money from source through his or her wages, bank account or whatever means is at its disposal under the Act, when will the person be able to get a tax clearance certificate?

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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I do not have time and I must put the question.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal South West, Sinn Fein)
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Can the Minister just answer that?

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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No.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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Tá nóiméid amháin fágtha.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal South West, Sinn Fein)
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I believed we were late starting.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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No. This is an order of the House today. As it is now 10.30 p.m., I am now required to put the following question in accordance with an order of the Dáil of this day: "That the amendments set down by the Minister for Finance for Committee Stage and not disposed of are hereby made to the Bill, in respect of each of the sections undisposed of that the section or, as appropriate, the section as amended is hereby agreed to in Committee, the Title is hereby agreed to in Committee, the Bill, as amended, is accordingly reported to the House, Fourth Stage is hereby completed and the Bill is hereby passed."

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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Mar áiritheoir ar an vóta deireanach, ba mhaith liom go gcaithfear vóta ar bhealach seachas ar bhealach leictreonach.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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As Deputy Aengus Ó Snodaigh is a Whip, under Standing Order 69 he is entitled to call a vote through the lobby.