Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I am very pleased the Ceann Comhairle has selected the issue of the rural transport scheme for debate. This scheme is one of the most successful schemes rolled out by the previous Government in terms of the impact it has had on rural communities. As the Minister is aware, a leaked document is in circulation with regard to the restructuring of the scheme and this document has been circulated to more than 30 schemes throughout the country.

The rural transport initiative has been an exceptionally successful policy platform. It provides much needed transport to shops, pharmacies, health centres and hospitals for a vulnerable sector of our community. The elderly, the infirm, people with disabilities and young people all use these services on a weekly basis. The initiative brings together voluntary organisations. Many of the schemes are operated by voluntary organisations who combine the small amount of money they receive from the State services and leverage that against philanthropic organisations and fund-raising in local communities, all to the success of the service.

I would have thought that was the essence of what Government funding is about. The Government provides a small amount and gets local communities to co-operate. I am most familiar with Clare Accessible Transport, which developed from East Clare Accessible Transport in an area I am very familiar with. Last year, Clare Accessible Transport carried 50,000 passengers on nine low-floor, easy-access buses. Approximately 250,000 services were provided on 30 routes at a total cost to the rural transport fund of approximately €280,000. If that does not represent value for money, I do not know what does. I fail to see why the Government needs to restructure the service as it is currently aligned. I would have thought that the co-operative environment in which small rural groups avail of the best voluntary effort and a small amount of State funding should be maintained.

This group has raised funds in local communities and drawn down funds from philanthropic organisations. It provides nine buses at no cost to the State. The Government's restructuring proposals will give responsibility to local authorities. Local authority members have told me they have no experience in this regard and do not want this increased responsibility. It is apparent to everyone what is at the root of this. The Government's plan is to pass responsibility to local authorities, cut State funding and expect local authorities to take responsibility for the cutting of the service. That is the fear that exists. That is the concern in the minds of the elderly, the infirm, the people with disabilities and the young. They are deeply worried about this Government's efforts to dismantle the rural transport service.

Marcella Corcoran Kennedy (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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As Deputy Dooley has said, this debate has been prompted by a discussion document that has been received by all the rural transport groups. It is important to record our feelings about the contents of the document. Contrary to the Deputy's suggestion, the groups involved in the rural transport network recognise that restructuring is required.

I want to ensure the social inclusion element of the rural transport programme, which is the root of its success, is retained when the restructuring takes place and the regional groups are formed as proposed in the document. The social inclusion element of the programme meant that people went from door to door to provide information about the availability of a facility that allowed residents to access health services and travel to local towns. We want to retain the bottom-up integrated approach to rural transport that we have had to date.

I was involved in the establishment of the west Offaly rural transport programme, which has expanded to cover most of County Offaly. I was there at the beginning when we talked about the need for rural transport in the area. I went down boreens and knocked on doors to tell people that this fabulous facility was being made available to them. We had to break down barriers and explain to people who viewed this with suspicion that something good was being done in rural areas. We did all of that.

I will conclude by mentioning that in my experience, the administration costs of these programmes account for between 13% and 14% of the overall cost. A higher level - in the order of 30% or 40% - is referred to in the discussion document.

Pat Deering (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Ceann Comhairle for selecting this subject for discussion. The importance of this issue is illustrated by the fact that it is being raised by four Deputies this afternoon. I am concerned that the efficient service which is provided at present is to be dismantled. The previous speakers have referred to the leaked report that has been in circulation in recent weeks. I will highlight some of the issues arising from the details in the report.

I am delighted that the Minister of State, Deputy Kelly, is in attendance. He is familiar with the Ring-a-Link service that exists in my part of the country. It serves counties Carlow, Kilkenny and south Tipperary. The eight very efficient routes in County Carlow provide a great service to the people of the areas in question.

While I accept there is a need to re-engineer some of the structures that exist at present, we will lose track of the aim of the service if we go down the road that has been suggested. Under the new structure that has been proposed, there will be eight co-ordination units. This will have far-reaching consequences for services in local areas.

In my local area, it has been proposed that counties Carlow, Kilkenny, Waterford and Wexford will form a single area with a rural population of more than 250,000. It is not sustainable. Such a large area would be too cumbersome. The group in Deputy Dooley's area covers one of the biggest rural areas in the country. We are in danger of losing sight of what the whole rural transport service is for.

The proposal to integrate the rural transport service into the local authority structure will have a detrimental effect. Local authorities have no experience of dealing with this issue. We must not lose the experience that has been built up in rural transport services.

The fleet operators who are part of the system must be retained because they know where the demand is. Their experience is essential if we are to ensure the system develops. The voluntary sector also plays an important part in this service. It must be kept involved so we can ensure the rural transport service is viable for the future.

I will conclude by asking about the timeframe that is involved in these changes. A great deal has happened in recent weeks since this report was released. A number of meetings have taken place. I would like the Minister of State to tell us where exactly we are at the moment. Will he consult the various organisations throughout the country to ensure the best possible outcome is achieved?

Michael McNamara (Clare, Labour)
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Like the previous speakers, I am an enthusiastic supporter of rural transport. I know the Minister of State is as well. He has visited my constituency to see the work of Clare Accessible Transport, which is one of the most successful community transport companies in the country. It was founded in 2003 and its headquarters are in Feakle. It provides a network of bus routes that are available to everyone in the community. Priority is given to people who do not have access to their own transport. I consider its work to be invaluable for the rural community it serves.

The benefits provided by Clare Accessible Transport have already been alluded to. It has its own fleet of buses, which were acquired at no cost to the State. Unlike many other fleets around the country, the Clare Accessible Transport fleet is specially designed. Its low-floor buses can accommodate wheelchairs. We are not talking about the addition of a hoist at the back of a normal minibus. As these buses are specially designed, their acquisition came at a particular expense. The service provided by Clare Accessible Transport is open to everybody. It is not confined to certain sections of the community. Ministers could avail of the service if they needed to go to Ennis from many parts of County Clare. It is a door-to-door service.

I am concerned that Clare Accessible Transport's particularly sophisticated dispatch system could be threatened by the proposals which have been leaked. I appreciate that the proposals were in draft form when they were leaked. It is particularly unfortunate that they were leaked. I suspect that they were leaked to frighten people, perhaps as part of a political agenda. The reality is that they have caused a great deal of fear in rural communities. People in such communities have come to rely on these valuable rural transport services to get to HSE appointments and to get around rural Ireland.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I thank the Deputies who have collectively raised this issue of genuine concern. I wish to make it absolutely clear that there are no plans to abolish the rural transport programme. On the contrary, the intention is to strengthen the programme by ensuring a more efficient delivery structure and maximising integration with other State transport services. My ambition is to ensure the programme and its services form a sustainable part of the public transport system - this is critical - in line with the commitment in the programme for Government to maintain and extend the rural transport programme along with other local transport services. The Government recognises that the rural transport programme plays a major role in combatting rural isolation and enhancing the mobility, accessibility and community participation of local people, particularly those at risk of social exclusion. Therefore, I assure the House that any future delivery model for rural transport will continue to address the social inclusion objective.

Since I became Minister of State with responsibility for public and commuter transport, I have initiated developments aimed at ensuring rural areas will have a more complete and cost-effective transport service that better meets the transport needs of all users. To this end, national responsibility for the integration of local and rural transport services, including the rural transport programme, has been assigned to the National Transport Authority since 1 April 2012, thereby putting such services in a broader transport context.

I also established the National Integrated Rural Transport Committee in April 2012, comprising key stakeholders and chaired by the National Transport Authority, NTA, to oversee and manage a partnership approach to implementing integrated local and rural transport. I am very conscious of the scope for and desirability of achieving greater levels of transport integration and co-ordinated delivery across a range of Exchequer-funded local and rural transport services, such as school and HSE transport services. Indeed, I have been working with my Government colleagues, including the Minister of State, Deputy Cannon, on these issues.

I am aware of the very valuable work done on the ground by the RTP groups in ensuring that the transport needs of their local community are being identified and delivered within available resources. However, given resources are limited and that the value for money and policy review of the RTP, published last year, recommended organisational restructuring to achieve efficiencies and the establishment of better alignment between the 35 RTP groups and local authorities, it is necessary that the current delivery mechanisms and structures are examined and revised.

Under the NTA and Pobal, the administration costs to the programme were reduced by 33.5% by the end of 2012, which happened without major disruption to services. Combined with the reduction in Pobal's costs, the threshold administration proportion of 17% recommended in the VFM review was also achieved by the end of 2012. In order to achieve the recommended administration costs of 13%, restructuring of the RTP is required. Therefore, the current structures of the RTP are not sustainable if the required efficiencies and savings are to be achieved and if the RTP is to be sustainable in the long run. If these are not achieved, then, within the limited resources available, services will decline. I am not prepared to allow this to happen.

Work is under way to determine the optimal structure for the delivery of rural transport from an efficiency and service perspective. One of the proposals being examined is that the RTPs be "aligned" with local authorities and that a number of co-ordination units be established. Discussions are taking place with the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government, the County and City Managers Association and the Rural Transport Network in the context of aligning the new structure with the local authority structure. While I would emphasise that no decision has been taken, I am hopeful I will be in a position to recommend a new structure later this year which will allow for the maximising of spend on services and the reduction of administration costs. I will be ensuring that any future structure for the rural transport programme will be based on community input, local flexibility and involving the voluntary sector, which is crucial. Rural transport, by its very nature, is community-based and this will remain under any new structure.

This year, €9.133 million is being allocated to the RTP, some 93% of the 2012 allocation. This represents only a small decrease at a time when very difficult decisions have had to be taken to curtail or postpone other programmes. I want to ensure that we maximise the spend on services and reduce the cost of administration. I should say that, over the past year, significant progress on integration has been made, with considerable engagement at local level with State agencies that provide transport, for example, Bus Éireann, school and HSE services, and so on. Some 26 RTPs are now providing services to the local HSE, while 16 RTP groups are providing some services to schools and preschools. In addition, RTPs are now providing services for other organs of the state, such as Rehabcare, National Learning Network, Kare, IWA, Enable Ireland, Cheshire Homes and the Centre for Independent Living.

I would like to assure the House of my personal commitment to the continuation of appropriate local transport services to those in need in rural areas while achieving the best value for money for the Exchequer through more efficient delivery structures and integrated services. While I can understand and fully appreciate that this creates a level of uncertainty for RTP groups, I am confident that the outcome will be a better service delivered more efficiently. The many members of the rural transport programme whom I have met want to positively influence the discussion around structures and, as Minister of State, I want to ensure that as much as possible of the social inclusion work carried out by the rural transport network is maintained. I will work with all involved over the coming months to make any transition as smooth as possible. The rural transport programme will become a permanent and lasting part of the public transport system. This is my intention and my ambition.

Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I am always concerned when, among the first lines of a statement, there are "no plans" to do something. That is usually code that there are plans and, ultimately, that abolition will take place. It seems the Minister of State, Deputy Kelly's proposal is to do it by stealth, by moving responsibility gradually away from central Government and putting it in the hands of the local authority. It seems the Government now believes local authorities have the capacity to do all sorts of things, such as deliver transport systems where they have no experience or carry out development work through the Leader companies the Government wants to bring into the local authorities. At the same time, the Government is transferring out functions like the delivery of water systems, which the local authorities have been doing from the very start.

I do not understand the overall strategy the Minister of State is seeking to implement, other than to say I believe it is a proposal that will lead in the long run to a reduced service. It will lead to reduced involvement by the voluntary, charitable and philanthropic sectors, which will also contribute to a diminution of the service. Given the €280,000 it cost to deliver the suite of services I identified, in particular for the area I am most familiar with, I fail to see how any restructuring will be able to deliver the same amount for less money. There is a serious hole in what the Minister of State is telling us.

Marcella Corcoran Kennedy (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister of State for his response. I ask him to help clear up some uncertainty among the transport groups that are looking at this document and wondering what exactly is going on. They are funded up to June 2013, which is only a few months away, and the passengers are also uncertain, having heard discussion around this issue. It is incumbent on the Minister of State to clarify the position so there is some certainty for these people going forward.

I believe deeper consultation with the Rural Transport Network would be beneficial to everybody because its members are the practitioners of a rural transport service. It is not a public transport service; it is a rural transport service which is community-based, and that is entirely different from a transport service where there is a fixed timetable and people try to find their way to a stop to get themselves to the local town. I appeal to the Minister of State to clear up that uncertainty.

Pat Deering (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister of State for his reply. While I am glad to hear he has no plans to scrap the rural transport scheme, a number of issues need to be addressed. I would have grave concerns in regard to the proposal, despite the Minister of State's suggestion that nothing definite has been decided. There are 35 groups at present and to reduce that to eight groups will have serious consequences from an administrative point of view, given the smallest of those proposed groups will serve a rural population of 240,000.

I have serious problems with the idea of integration into local authority structures, which are under severe pressure at present. They may have an administrative structure but they are under pressure in regard to numbers, which are being depleted, and they may not be able to reach those who need services. In my opinion, it will not be possible to bring services to the level we want unless we have an input from the voluntary sector. It is crucial that this sector is brought into the system because, if not, there will be serious consequences down the line.

Michael McNamara (Clare, Labour)
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I am pleased to hear work is under way to determine the optimal structure for the delivery of rural transport from an efficiency and service perspective. My question is what structures are being examined. Among the proposals being examined, are the Minister of State and the Department looking at a direct award process?

Unlike some of the speakers, I do not have a problem with council involvement - for example, who better to identity the services necessary in Clare than Clare County Council? However, the issue is that Clare County Council does not have a fleet of buses and it certainly does not have a fleet of the specialist buses that Clare Accessible Transport has. Once a county council, be it in Clare, Tipperary, Carlow or anywhere else, identifies the need, who will provide the service? While I presume it will be a service provider, to whom will the service provider be contracted? For example, will it be to the council or to the National Transport Authority?

The Minister of State referred to regional co-ordination units. Will this be for all of the country or will a direct award process also be considered for some areas? In this regard, Clare and Waterford are areas that have been mentioned and Kerry has particularly advanced programmes in place at present. What costs will operators be allowed to include if there are direct awards? At present, Clare Accessible Transport already meets the 13% administrative threshold which the Minister of State indicates is desirable.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I thank the Deputies for the passion with which they have represented this issue. Indeed, it is an issue I am also very passionate about. As the House knows, I come from a very rural part of the country.

I am probably one of the most rural Deputies in Leinster House. There will be change but not all change has to be seen as negative. Change can be very positive. In this case, change is necessary. It is unfortunate it was not addressed in the past by the previous Government. We need to look at how we can integrate services more. For example, I am working with the Minister of State with responsibility for training and skills to see how school bus services can work with rural transport. I have said publicly on many occasions that I do not understand why for many years, the reverse routes of school buses were not used as public transport routes for nine months of the year. It just makes sense. The buses are empty, drivers must drive them and diesel has to be burnt. There needs to be greater integration between the HSE and voluntary groups with regard to non-acute services.

A draft document was sent out that is dated but not set in stone. We are considering various different options such as looking at local authority roles and structures. We need greater integration but we also need greater coverage. There are swathes of the country with no possibility of rural transport services because they do not have an RTP, which is not fair on them. This has grown organically and has done very well. I spent this morning with the Meath Accessible Transport Project which does fantastic work. I visited most of the groups referred to by the Deputies and know many of the people who run them. They do brilliant work. This is a challenge. There is an awful lot of work involved and there will be change but I believe it will be positive change. We must look at how it will integrate with other public transport services. There are challenges relating to those who are fleet-owning as opposed to non-fleet-owning and those with Leader group involvement and those without. There is a range of issues involved, all of which must be and are being digested to come up with an optimum structure. We are trying to ensure rural transport has a secure and structured future because doing nothing is not an option. Doing nothing will see service drop and I am not prepared to see service drop in the future. I want to protect services and that is the intention of the plans we will draft as a Government.