Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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To ask the Minister for Health if he will withdraw his scheme of two-year contracts on reduced salaries for graduate nurses; if he will enter talks with nurses’ representatives who have expressed willingness to discuss genuine savings while safeguarding the already reduced pay of their members; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [7763/13]

James Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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This scheme represents an opportunity for a substantial number of recently-qualified nurses to work in Ireland for a two-year period and to gain valuable experience and additional skills at a time when job opportunities in the public service are, regrettably, very limited. Graduate nurses and midwives are of course entitled to choose whether to participate in the initiative or to pursue their careers elsewhere, but I hope to see a steady increase in applicants over the coming months.

The recruitment of graduate nurses under this scheme, currently in train, will continue. The HSE will accept applications on an ongoing basis for Phase 1, covering registered general nurses for the acute hospital setting and the community, from 2012 graduates and also those who graduated in 2010 and 2011. Further recruitment will continue during 2013. Phase 2, which will cover mental health, intellectual disability, midwifery and paediatrics, will launch in the coming days. There will also be opportunities for those who graduate in 2013 to participate. The intake was always expected to be spread over a period, especially since the scheme was being introduced some months after most 2012 graduates completed their training last September.

The initiative will give nursing and midwifery graduates an employment opportunity and facilitate their professional development. They will be able to avail of a suite of educational programmes, including intravenous canulation and training in anaphylaxis treatment. It has also been agreed that participants will be facilitated in obtaining a certificate in advanced health care skills to cover areas such as health assessment and pharmacology. The Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform approved this employment initiative on the basis that participants would not be counted in health service staff numbers and that it would result in savings on unsustainable levels of agency and overtime expenditure. Given the requirement on the HSE to reduce numbers employed and to maximise savings, there is only limited scope to offer permanent posts at the starting point of the staff nurse scale at present.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I was a member of the Sinn Féin delegation which met recently with the troika. I was very conscious in that regard of the impression - widely reported in the media - the Minister gave that permission to introduce what many call a yellow pack scheme for qualified nurses was achieved in negotiations with the troika. It was made clear to us by the troika at our meeting that the scheme is entirely of the Government's doing. Will the Minister acknowledge that the scheme is his baby alone? Can the Minister tell the House how many applications have been received for what is an undermining of graduate nurses' qualifications and entitlements? They will receive two-year contracts at 80% of the salary of serving nurses. These nurses are fully qualified and will take on full responsibility within whatever setting they find employment. Does the Minister accept that nurses in general and psychiatric nurses have voted with their feet? Will he withdraw the scheme? Will he sit down with the unions as they have requested and discuss genuine measures for savings while protecting the already reduced pay and entitlements of nurses across the board thereby ensuring the highest standards of patient care?

James Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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The scheme is a major concession on the basis that the nurses will be employed outside the employment control framework which has been set and within which we must reduce numbers. It allows us to create what was previously known as a "nursing bank" which will include people with the type of skills we require. The current dependency on agency nursing means one has to take the agency nurse provided. An agency nurse might work one week in orthopaedics, the next in a cardiac unit and the following week on a rheumatology ward. One is not getting the ideal level of continuity. With a nursing bank, one has access to groups of nurses one knows are skilled in particular areas. They are the nurses who will fill the gaps which are created by maternity or sick leave. The scheme will enhance the employability of the graduates who go through the two-year programme. They will emerge with skills which are not as freely available among their colleagues. It will confer on them an advantage in competing for employment here or elsewhere should they wish to travel abroad.

Terence Flanagan (Dublin North East, Fine Gael)
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Very briefly, Deputy Ó Caoláin.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The Minister's description of the scheme as a major concession does not, with respect, fit with what the troika said in response to my questions in the course of the meeting with Sinn Féin. Does the Minister accept that the scheme will involve the displacement of up to 1,000 nurses and midwives who are currently employed through agencies? Does he accept that no additional nursing hours will arise from the implementation of the programme? Does he accept that the starting salary for a new entrant nurse or midwife has already been cut by 24% since 2009 and that the programme has no specific additional educational component? Does he accept that the programme will see new graduates having to accept 100% responsibility as regulated, registered professionals while receiving only 80% of the appropriate pay rate? That is the bottom line. There is no guarantee in relation to the future career path of these nurses after the two years.

Terence Flanagan (Dublin North East, Fine Gael)
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Thank you, Deputy. We are well over time.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Will the Minister, therefore, withdraw the scheme and engage with the unions directly?

Terence Flanagan (Dublin North East, Fine Gael)
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Very briefly, Minister. We are way over time.

James Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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I know the rules of the Chamber do not allow me to respond and I have to move on to Question No. 3.

Terence Flanagan (Dublin North East, Fine Gael)
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Yes.

James Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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That is why so many questions are put in the manner in which they are, I suppose.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Not at all. You have the time to respond.

Terence Flanagan (Dublin North East, Fine Gael)
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Just even briefly.

James Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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I reject what Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin has to say. The answer to his question as to whether I would withdraw the scheme is absolutely not. There is no question of it.

Terence Flanagan (Dublin North East, Fine Gael)
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Thank you, Minister.

James Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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In relation to the next question.

Terence Flanagan (Dublin North East, Fine Gael)
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Question No. 3 is in the name of-----

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Wait a minute, Minister. The next question has not been called.

James Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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Well fine.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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You have decided it yourself. You are not the Chair. You are the Minister who has to come in and answer questions.

James Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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I do not need you to tell me what the rules are. You have already pointed out that you have asked a load of questions and I am not allowed to respond.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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You were not called to the next question. You were called to respond.

James Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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The Chair has let me respond to inform you. You have been informed. So be it.

Terence Flanagan (Dublin North East, Fine Gael)
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Deputies.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The Chair did not call the next question.

Terence Flanagan (Dublin North East, Fine Gael)
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Deputies, we need to move on.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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You have chosen not to answer. Your choice.

James Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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I beg your pardon. The Chair can rule on this. You have asked a question in writing, I have responded verbally in the Chamber. You have a response to that. I responded to that. You have the final response.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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That is not the case.

James Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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That is the case. That is always the case.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The Minister has a response. You have the last word.

Terence Flanagan (Dublin North East, Fine Gael)
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We are over time.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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It is bizarre that the Minister would have recourse to that type of action.

James Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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I am quite happy to answer.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Ask your attending Minister of State, Deputy Alex White. You only declared a moment ago you know exactly the workings of the Dáil Chamber.

James Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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Yes.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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You are demonstrating that it is only as it suits you.

James Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
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Let the Chair rule.

Terence Flanagan (Dublin North East, Fine Gael)
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Deputy and Minister, can we move on to Question No. 3? There are a lot of questions we are hoping to get through.