Dáil debates

Wednesday, 13 February 2013

Other Questions

Child and Family Support Agency

2:25 pm

Photo of Tom FlemingTom Fleming (Kerry South, Independent)
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To ask the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs the way she will justify salaries for the new position of head of organisation at €186,000 in the new section of her Department being devolved from the Health Service Executive, salaries of more than €100,000 for directors of services and a fixed term appointment for three year contract at €150,000 a year which is in breach of salary level for that job; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [3053/13]

Photo of Frances FitzgeraldFrances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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The new child and family support agency will be established by way of primary legislation and will assume full statutory responsibility for a range of services including child welfare and protection services which are currently provided by the HSE, the National Educational Welfare Board and the Family Support Agency. When the agency is established it will constitute one of the largest public agencies in the State with a staff of more than 4,000 employees and a budget of over €550 million.

It represents one of the largest and most ambitious areas of public sector reform under way. Furthermore, the agency's onerous responsibilities in promoting the welfare of children are widely recognised as a priority.


As the majority of staff will transfer from the HSE, the established HSE salary structure is being used in respect of senior management positions. Mr. Gordon Jeyes is CEO–designate of the agency. Mr. Jeyes was recruited by the HSE in January 2011 as National Director, Children and Family Services. His recruitment followed an international search process and he brings with him experience of leading children's services in two other jurisdictions. We are very fortunate to have a man of his calibre leading our new agency given the legacy we have of child protection and the huge amount of work to be done. The salary rate approved for Mr. Jeyes' position with the HSE was agreed in 2011. The child and family support agency will have additional responsibility in terms of services and accountability and the salary for the CEO would be equivalent to that previously paid by the HSE.


With regard to the post of head of quality assurance in the new agency, it was not possible following a competitive process to source a candidate with the required professional and senior management expertise, on the advertised terms. It was imperative that the senior management team be in place to progress the necessary preparatory work for the agency's establishment, and in these circumstances approval was subsequently granted by the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform for the filling of the quality assurance post on a once-off three year fixed-term contract basis, at the rate of €145,000 per annum. The post holder brings very significant international experience in the quality improvement of children’s services. We badly need this as is very clear from the range of reports that we have all read that. The post will be re-advertised by way of open competition in advance of the expiry of the fixed-term contract. All requirements for approval of this salary were fully complied with in advance of the post holder's taking up duties.

Additional information not given on the floor of the House


The other senior management posts of head of policy and planning, head of corporate and human resources, and head of finance were filled at the advertised terms, which are equivalent to the salary scale for the grade of assistant national director in the HSE. The post of chief operations officer remains to be filled, having previously been advertised unsuccessfully. The post of chief executive of the National Education Welfare Board is filled on a temporary-acting basis and it is also envisaged that this will be advertised at management team level prior to the functions of the board transferring to the new agency on its establishment.


I am satisfied that the above arrangements equip the agency with the necessary management skills and experience to discharge its onerous responsibilities on behalf of children and families in this crucial start-up phase of the agency's existence.

2:35 pm

Photo of Tom FlemingTom Fleming (Kerry South, Independent)
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I thank the Minister for her reply. I submitted this question to the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Howlin. In the course of her reply the Minister said that he played a role in at least one of these appointments. Given the economic climate and the level of debt in this country it is hard for the Government to justify transferring a person from the HSE at such an exorbitant salary. It is the same as, if not more than, the salary of the President of France. The head of the family support agency may even be earning €5,000 or €6,000 more than the President of France who holds a very responsible position.

The appointment is for three years. I find it hard to comprehend that a suitable person could not be appointed on a full-time basis. There may have been efforts made in advertising. That person is probably receiving something in the region of what the Prime Minister of Britain receives. I am glad to hear that there will be a further recruitment of some suitable person at a later date. We are a bankrupt country and we are weakening our hand in negotiating in Europe and are severely hindered.

Photo of Frances FitzgeraldFrances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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Since 1980 we have had 17 major reports on child protection failings in Ireland. There is a huge job to be done to change that situation. It is a shameful legacy. The reform of child protection and of children's services is a key priority for me and the Government. The establishment of the new child and family support agency is a key step in this ambitious and comprehensive reform programme. The majority of staff will transfer from the HSE whose salary structure was being used for the senior management positions. An independent process was put in place to recruit the staff. It was independent of the Department. It is extremely important that we have the very best managers to do the task that needs to be done to manage the services. I have already outlined to the House on several occasions the huge job that must be done to disaggregate the work of the child and family services within the HSE and the difficulties in doing that. I have highlighted the need for a national finance system, for accountability and reforms at national level and for policy to be outlined at national level. This management team is undertaking all of that. I am very confident that the team will deliver a world-class service which is what we should have for children, particularly the most vulnerable ones.

Photo of Tom FlemingTom Fleming (Kerry South, Independent)
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I wish the Minister well with her added responsibilities. There are several salaried positions offered at over €100,000, for example for director of services. I presume that these people were formerly in the HSE where at the other end of the scale nurses are being recruited at 20% less than the standard salary these people are being offered. Many of them are mature students. There is gross inequity across the board. The Minister's colleague, the Minister for Health, Deputy Reilly, is presiding over a situation in which the director-designate of the new agency replacing the HSE is appointing five directors again at salaries in the region of over €150,000. People find it hard to digest and accept what the Government is doing with regard to these appointments particularly in these straitened times when austerity measures affect people particularly those at the lower levels of the HSE.

Photo of Robert TroyRobert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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As Deputy Tom Fleming says when one sees the reduction in wages for highly qualified nursing staff I do not know how the Minister can stand over a further breach in a salary cap. The salaries that were on offer were considerable and I do not see the necessity to exceed them at a time when we are talking about fairness and equality. This is not sending out the right message. No one disagrees with the Minister and everyone will support her endeavours in reforming child protection measures with the establishment of the child and family support agency. That is not in question. How can the Minister stand over a breach in the salary cap that the Government imposed while at the same time cutting the salaries of those working at the lowest levels of the health service?

Photo of Tommy BroughanTommy Broughan (Dublin North East, Labour)
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No one doubts the excellence of the appointment but is it appropriate that a director should be appointed who is earning more than the Minister? The Minister is responsible to this House for children's matters. She bears a very heavy responsibility and Deputy Tom Fleming's premise is almost unanswerable in current circumstances.

Photo of Michael Healy-RaeMichael Healy-Rae (Kerry South, Independent)
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I want to support Deputy Tom Fleming very strongly because this Government sold the people a pup.

Photo of Michael KittMichael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Does the Deputy have a question?

Photo of Michael Healy-RaeMichael Healy-Rae (Kerry South, Independent)
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How can the Minister stand over doing this at a time when her Government sold the people a pup? Her party said that it would do everything correctly and the people who supported it thought they were doing the right thing.

The Government imposed the cap and every now and then, when it so wishes, it flouts it, which is wrong and outrageous. If it had stated it was never going to introduce a cap, it would be fine, as it could set salary figures at whatever level it wanted, but why did the Minister make a rule for salary caps one day only for it to be broken by the Government on another?

2:45 pm

Photo of Frances FitzgeraldFrances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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The point I made was that the chief executive officer designate of the agency had been recruited prior to my taking up office in January 2011 on the salary commented on by Deputies. His recruitment followed an international search process and he brought with him enormous experience. It is important we realise the challenges he will face in the child and family support agency.

I take some of the points made on the difficult economic situation we face. However, every effort was made to recruit in Ireland to fill the post of quality assurance manager in the new agency. That, however, was not possible following the competition process. Every Member knows that having someone in place who understands quality assurance in this area is absolutely necessary. It was in these circumstances and because of the need to fill the post that a decision was taken to offer a three-year fixed-term contract. The person who has taken up the job brings significant international experience. The future development of the child and family support agency will be greatly enhanced by the work done by the people concerned. The post will be readvertised to be filled by way of open competition in advance of the expiry of the fixed-term contract.