Willie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
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Yesterday a Redemptorist priest, Fr. Michael Cusack, had some things to say about the Government's policy on rural policing. He "urged fresh thinking on policing resources so that people in rural communities do not sleep in their beds in fear, and evil does not triumph over virtue." He went on to describe how, after a garda had been removed from his local parish in County Galway, a particularly horrific crime occurred. Is the Minister aware that Fr. Cusack is merely reflecting concerns expressed by the Opposition for many months and, more important, the Garda Síochána, elected members of political parties, not least the main Government party, independent commentators who have written on and spoken about the subject, Muintir na Tíre, the IFA, rural communities, community leaders and every group which represents anyone in rural Ireland? Is the Minister further aware that there are more reports today of a businessman in County Galway who has been robbed four times in the past six months and a woman in County Kildare who has been robbed twice in recent months by people who travelled from the city by bus to commit the robberies? Is the Government going to ignore and dismiss all the concerns of communities throughout the country by proceeding to allow 95 rural Garda stations to close as and from today?

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I listened carefully to what Fr. Cusack had to say yesterday in the Redemptorist Church in Dundalk. He spoke very movingly about the trauma experienced by anyone, whether they lived in a rural area or a city centre, who had ever been subjected to a robbery or an invasion of his or her home space, particularly robbery with violence. Fr. Cusack spoke movingly about that experience. In the latter part of his comments Deputy Willie O'Dea addressed what was happening in terms of the changes in crime patterns because of the development of the road network.

Willie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
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I did not ask that question.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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The Deputy brought it up. Everyone on all sides of the House is aware that it is possible for individuals or groups involved in crime to move rapidly from one part of the country to another. For this reason, the Garda has undertaken a special operation to target those involved in such crimes which, I suggest to the Deputy, not only affect the rural areas about which he speaks but all suburban areas in towns and cities also. This is one of the changes in how criminals operate. I note the significant success of the Garda operation, Operation Fiacla, as a consequence of which between April and December 2012 a total of 3,538 people were arrested and 1,925 people were charged. As part of this debate there is a real issue in terms of how our police force operates. Yesterday we saw at the funeral of Detective Garda Donohoe a magnificent and moving demonstration of how the community, the country and the State stand by gardaí as gardaí have stood by their country. Operation Fiacla probably represents one of the best developments in Garda management and the fight against crime. It shows, in terms of results and the number of arrests, the numbers being brought before the courts and the decline in the number of burglaries.

Michael Healy-Rae (Kerry South, Independent)
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What planet is the Minister living on?

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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In terms of the debate in the House, Fianna Fáil should consider how best we should police all parts of society, with the objective of bringing criminals before the courts and putting those found guilty behind bars. That is what modern, effective policing is about.

Willie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
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I asked the Minister a simple direct question and she answered everything but the question I asked. She quoted various data. The number of burglaries is up by 10%, but I suppose if one tortures data sufficiently, one can get them to confess to anything. That is the bottom line. I am amazed to hear the development of the road network is now responsible for much rural crime. I am putting a direct question to the Minister. Does she consider a society in which people, old people in particular and persons living in isolated rural areas, go to bed at night in fear represents the vision for change the people voted for only two years ago? As I want to be clear, I am asking the Minister a direct question. Will she confirm to the House and, through it, the country that in spite of all the anxiety, fear, terror and protests from thousands of people who have turned out to protest at the closures throughout the country, the Government's answer is, "No change; we are going to proceed regardless"? A simple "Yes" or "No" would suffice.

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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Yes.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I remind Deputy Willie O'Dea that he referred to the phenomenon of people going out from urban areas. He said they used buses.

Willie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
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"Yes" or "No".

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Everyone in the House serving different parts of the country is aware that criminal methods have changed. People use vans and other forms of transport. The response of the Garda, in particular Garda management, has been to develop targeted policing methods to actually deal with the problem.

Deputy Willie O'Dea may scoff but the fact is that anybody, whether living in an urban or rural area, will suffer if his or her home is invaded by someone bent on robbery. That is what Fr. Michael Cusack was talking about yesterday. I was in the church listening extremely carefully. He referred to the enormous trauma suffered by victims of robbery. He told the stories of two victims of violent robbery in particular.

Willie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
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He was talking about changing Government policy.

Michael Healy-Rae (Kerry South, Independent)
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It would be great if the Government heeded him.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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We must examine as a nation how we develop modern policing which addresses the fact that criminals in this and other societies have developed their methods as the roads system has developed.

Willie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
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Is it by closing Garda stations?

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Deputy Willie O'Dea raised the issue of people travelling out from town on a bus to rob a rural area. He is the one who raised it, so why would he complain?

Willie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
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Are you proceeding with closures? I asked you a specific question.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I am providing you with a response which is specific to the issue you raised. Garda management has been overseeing an important operation called "Operation Fiacla".

Willie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
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Yes or no?

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Order, please. The Minister to conclude.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I am very surprised that Deputy Willie O'Dea does not seem to be aware of the work being done by the Garda right around the country and that he does not support its professional work.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Over the 12 months to the end of the third quarter of 2012, the recorded incidence of aggravated burglary fell by 17%. Does Deputy Willie O'Dea understand that Garda management has put in place a comprehensive operation in Operation Fiacla to reduce this kind of crime and that the operation is working?

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Hear, hear.

Arthur Spring (Kerry North-West Limerick, Labour)
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Support the Garda.

Willie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
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That is not what people are telling us.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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The operation has reduced the reports of aggravated burglary by 17%.

Willie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
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Answer my question. Yes or no?

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Independent)
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There is no money for overtime.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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That does not mean that people are not fearful or that if someone's house is invaded by a burglar, it is not traumatic.

Willie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister has taken four minutes to fail to answer the question. Are Garda stations being closed? Yes or no?

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Please, Deputies.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Good policing is what we want and it is what Garda management is providing. The use of modern policing techniques is the reason the reported incidence of aggravated burglary has fallen.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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I call Deputy Mary Lou McDonald.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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There is no doubt that the closure of almost 100 Garda stations today represents a serious blow to rural Ireland in particular but also to some urban communities. These are the very communities which have already suffered under the cuts regime of this and the previous Government. We have seen in recent weeks and months a spate of burglaries targeting vulnerable and elderly people. For many communities, the local Garda station provides peace of mind and allows people to sleep soundly in their beds. The Government has decided, however, to continue with the implementation of Fianna Fáil's so-called national recovery plan from 2010 by making further Garda cuts.

Willie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
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I suppose we will have to apologise for it in 17 years time.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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This is the infamous four-year plan which Fianna Fáil negotiated with the troika. At the time Fianna Fáil agreed with the troika to cut Garda numbers from 14,500 to 13,500 in 2011 and to 13,000 by 2014, a total drop of 10%.

Niall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
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Sinn Féin has its own way of reducing the number of gardaí.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Of course, now Fianna Fáil grandstands on the issue when the Government is simply implementing its predecessor's policy. They have form in this regard, Minister-----

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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We will leave now and Opposition Members can debate among themselves.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Deputies on all sides of the House should allow Deputy Mary Lou McDonald to continue.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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At the 2010 Garda Representative Association conference, its president, Mr. Michael O'Boyce, criticised the reduction in Garda numbers and the Fianna Fáil justice spokesman, Deputy Niall Collins, called for him to be removed from the force by the then Commissioner.

Niall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
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How would you have removed him?

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Deputy Niall Collins now comes to the Dáil to oppose the very cuts Fianna Fáil designed.

Willie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
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You removed Jerry McCabe.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Order please. Deputy Mary Lou McDonald is over time and should conclude.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Does the Minister for Social Protection, Deputy Joan Burton, accept that the closure of Garda stations is a blow to the communities I have described? What assurances can she offer today to these communities as to their safety? What measures are in place not just to reassure people in rural Ireland and certain urban communities but to ensure they have a full and adequate Garda service?

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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We will make sure the stations are not blown up.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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I call on the Minister. She has three minutes.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Deputy Mary Lou McDonald is correct to state that under Fianna Fáil's proposal Garda numbers would have dropped to 13,000 by 2014 on foot of the deal on a cut of 10% which that party signed off with the troika.

Willie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
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We were not going to cut child benefit.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Deputies must settle down.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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She was also correct to state that when the Garda Representative Association's spokesman spoke out against the cuts, the response of Deputy Niall Collins, who is now Fianna Fáil's justice spokesman, was to seek to have him silenced. Deputy Niall Collins called for the outgoing president of the Garda Representative Association, Mr. Michael O'Boyce, to be removed from the force by the then Garda Commissioner, Mr. Fachtna Murphy, for a speech which was not even delivered but in which it had been proposed to criticise the Fianna Fáil Government and its programme of cuts.

Niall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
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It was not for that comment.

Michael Healy-Rae (Kerry South, Independent)
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You are in government now.

Willie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
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Who is in government now?

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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At the end of this process, we will have more than 560 Garda stations which is significantly more per capita than in Scotland or Wales. If we look north of the Border, 40% of police stations are to shut.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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They were garrisons.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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We are talking about a relatively small but important number of stations which will be open for limited service of two to three hours in rural communities. Sinn Féin agrees with closing stations in the North.

David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael)
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The ones they did not blow up.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Sinn Féin Assembly and Northern Ireland Policing Board member, Pat Sheehan, said those stations represented "a drain on resources". At the time of the announcement, Alex Maskey, also a policing board member, said many of the stations on the list were an unwanted legacy of the past and had become blots on the landscape.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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That is true. We are 90 years on down here.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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We might well look for consistency and coherence on policy. We can agree North and South on the need for more effective and better quality policing which takes into account the change in crime patterns caused, in part, by easier access to the countryside. People want to see - and the Garda Commissioner has committed to - an end to circumstances in which gardaí are forced to spend excessive time in offices but, instead, their deployment for operational policing on the front line.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Thank you, Minister.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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It is what we all want to see. This means targeting resources as effectively as possible to ensure there is better policing to protect communities and, in particular, older people living in isolated areas. It is very possible to achieve that with the development of modern policing methods. In my own constituency, which includes many semi-rural areas, Operation Fiacla has made a significant impact in terms of gangs arriving in vans and cars from other parts of the region to attempt to rob people's homes.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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What is a semi-rural constituency?

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Mary Lou McDonald has one minute for her supplementary question.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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We can all agree on the need for more effective policing. I do not differ with the Minister on that. Her commentary on the North would require too long an explanation.

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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Can we give Deputy Mary Lou McDonald extra time?

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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For those who care to listen and who are clearly ignorant on the matter, the experience of policing in the North and in the South has been entirely different.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Can we have order for the speaker?

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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The difficulty is that very many people who rely on Operation Fiacla believe it is gan fiacla because the gardaí are not sufficiently resourced. The Minister knows this because she represents an urban constituency not a million miles away from my own. She knows that the most common and sometimes the only complaint citizens have regarding the gardaí is the lengthy response time. They call the Garda but they are not in a position to respond promptly. It is the biggest frustration one comes across. That is in an urban setting. Let us transport ourselves to rural Ireland where we know there has been a spate of very high-profile and vicious attacks, particularly on elderly people. People living in remote areas are quite correctly ill at ease because they do not believe the service they require will get to them quickly enough to keep them safe.

Will the Minister at least acknowledge that the closure of almost 100 stations is a matter of grave public concern. Could she go beyond the generalised rhetoric she has offered and be far more specific about what the compensatory measures for those communities will be. Will there be additional gardaí? I support civilianisation as I believe it is the right thing to do. Will that be accelerated? How many gardaí will be freed up? Will the people in rural Ireland who are losing their stations at least know that there will be a Garda on the beat?

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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The Commissioner has addressed those issues. I will return to the issue of the North because comparative policing and its success in different countries and regions both in the EU and in different parts of this island is an important factor in this debate. What is important in modern policing is that gardaí are involved in front-line duties. The PSNI inherited 140 stations but by 2015, just 49 stations will remain. This is in the context of Deputy McDonald's party being in government in the North. The Deputy should ask herself why her colleagues in the North agree to have a 40% reduction in the number of police stations. I assume they did so in order to allow for more effective use of policing resources by putting PSNI members out on the front line.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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It is an entirely new service post-Patten. Could the Minister answer my question?

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister without interruption.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Studies on crime levels in different areas are very important. All the wisdom relating to modern policing both in the US and Europe is that it is critical to get police officers out on the front line and Operation Fiacla is a very good example of that. Where it has been operating around the country, it is taking into account changes in crime patterns brought about by additional mobility due in many cases to the upgrade in the roads network. That is something with which we must deal. The Garda Commissioner and management are working on a programme and plan to make for more efficient policing for the 21st century. That seems to be what Sinn Féin is supporting the PSNI to do in the North but it always seems to have a two-faced response in respect of this - one that looks North and the other that looks South. I am asking Deputy McDonald to compare and contrast what happens in both areas.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Order please.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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My question relates directly to the Minister's Department and policies. Last year, there was an outcry from families of children with special needs about the dramatic increase in the refusal of the domiciliary care allowance, a consequent alarming increase in the number of appeals and the waiting times for those appeals, which often went up to a year. In a parliamentary question I put to the Minister last week to which I received an answer, the same shocking pattern revealed itself when it came to applications for invalidity pensions. In 2009, 39% of applications were refused. In 2011 when the Government took office, the figure jumped to 69% while the figure in 2012 was 64%. As a result, there has been a dramatic increase in the number of appeals so that in 2012, there was a 700% increase in the number of appeals through which people had to go as opposed to 2009. That has led to the appeals office being completely overrun and unable to cope. Only one quarter of the 4,356 appeals lodged in 2012 were decided. This means that thousands of people with chronic illnesses and injuries have to wait up to and over a year to have their appeals heard for invalidity pension. There is widespread anecdotal evidence of similar patterns when it comes to applications for carer's allowance and disability allowance.

Why are the Minister's Department and medical assessors second-guessing consultants and GPs who are testifying to the fact that people are physically or mentally unable to work? Is she deliberately denying some of the most vulnerable people - ill people with chronic illnesses - their just entitlements? Where does this leave her constant protestations that she will defend the vulnerable, including people with special needs, when there is clear evidence of a systematic pattern on the part of her Government of denying vulnerable people their rightful entitlements and forcing them into situations of anxiety, desperation and suffering as a result of cuts she is imposing but which she dresses up as reform?

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I thank the Deputy for his question. To begin with his first point about domiciliary care allowance, I answered a question about this a few days' ago, as the Deputy noted. I am happy to repeat to the House that the waiting period for domiciliary care allowance - the Deputy has the statistics in the answer to his question - has been reduced to six weeks following the reforms of the IT platform. That is a very significant development and I compliment the staff of the Department of Social Protection working in the context of significant changes introduced in the Department as a consequence of the Croke Park agreement. They have reformed the IT system. In the context of more applications for domiciliary care allowance and a change to what is called a new IT structure, the waiting period has been reduced to six weeks and the backlog has largely been addressed. I am delighted to tell the Deputy that current applications for domiciliary care allowance should now take about six weeks.

I previously explained to the Deputy that while the volumes, funding and the numbers being awarded domiciliary care allowance are increasing, certain applications are not complete when presented. Deputies know this in respect of different cases. The Deputy referred to people's medical experts. It is for people's family doctors and consultants if they are involved to make a case in clear medical terms and in line with the legislation as to why somebody qualifies for the allowance so that the medical assessors, who are medically qualified people working in my Department, can take account of the advice and opinion of the person's own medical advisers.

If the information is not forthcoming at the time of application, we allow fresh evidence to be submitted and if that is not satisfactory, people have a right of appeal. The improvements in information technology brought about by the staff in my Department have resulted in a six week waiting time. The backlog of family income supplement applications has been almost totally eliminated. We have made major improvements and, in a time of unprecedented economic difficulty, protected core rates of weekly social welfare payments and are providing additional funding under all of these headings.

Another factor affecting the number of applications is that in 2010 the then Fianna Fáil Government reduced the payment period of illness benefit from an indefinite period to two years. Deputies who deal with these cases will be aware that a consequence of this decision was an increase in the number of people coming forward because their two year period had expired and they were seeking to migrate to another payment. They also had a right, by and large, to return to jobseeker's allowance.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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The Minister did not really answer my question. In so far as there has been an improvement to the domiciliary care allowance, I give credit to the staff.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Thank you, Deputy. That is a first.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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I give most credit to-----

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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The Deputy actually praised a civil servant.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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The Minister had her chance. I give most credit to the families who came out on the streets last year and embarrassed the Government into acknowledging the disgraceful mistreatment of families with special needs. They forced the Minister to address the problem, but it is now being moved to another area. She has completely failed to address the fact that since the Government took office the number of refusals of invalidity pension has dramatically increased by 64%, from 39% in 2011 to 69% in 2012. Two thirds of applicants may be receiving an answer within a few weeks, but they are being refused.

I will give an example of the people who are being refused. In most cases, they had an entitlement to illness benefit. In other words, the Department accepted that they were not fit for work and paid them illness benefit. When people applied for invalidity pension after two years, they were denied it in two thirds of cases. I know of one individual who had worked for 40 years as a bin man before developing rheumatoid arthritis and problems with his heart, knee and back. He was denied, despite being completely unable to work. I can provide a litany of similar examples of individuals who are made to suffer for months as they beg and appeal for their entitlements.

Is there not a systematic policy of first stop refusal if the Department can find any excuse whatsoever, even when medical assistance has been provided by GPs and consultants? When people appeal, they often have to pay €200 for a consultant's letter stating the Department should not have refused them in the first place. That is another cost for those who are ill and vulnerable. It is disgraceful. Stop treating people in this bureaucratic way and give them their entitlements.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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If the Deputy's assertions were correct-----

Deputies:

They are.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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I can provide the statistics.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Order, please.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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One of the stand-out figures about the country and our social protection system is that 16% of the working age population are in receipt of some kind of illness, disability or invalidity payment.

Michael Healy-Rae (Kerry South, Independent)
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Is that their fault?

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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During the boom period that figure increased and it is dramatically higher than in other countries. I have noted that in 2010 the then Government made a decision to limit the payment of illness benefit to two years.

Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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Will the Minister speak about her own record?

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Illness benefit is certified by the applicant's own medical adviser who submits the certificate to the Department of Social Protection. The payment period of illness benefit was previously unlimited and somebody could have remained on illness benefit for an indefinite period provided he or she was certified under the medical system, with which most Members are familiar. That system was changed in 2010. This has resulted in a large increase in the numbers applying for payments under other medical related schemes. I am delighted Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett has conceded that the civil servants in the Department have worked hard to improve the system.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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I have no problem with them. My problem is with the policy.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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We are spending more money on more people under these headings. The Deputy's notion that social welfare illness payments are being denied to people is wide of the mark.

John Halligan (Waterford, Independent)
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The refusal rate is 64%.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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I can provide the statistics showing that two thirds are being refused.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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The Deputy has acknowledged that applications are now being processed in a much shorter period of time. I am glad he was, for once, gracious enough to concede that point.