Billy Kelleher (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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Somewhere in the country today, there may well be a victim of rape, incest or abuse who is contemplating facing a tormentor in seeking justice and retribution. However, recent decisions by the Central Criminal Court send out a very disturbing message. As part of a Parliament and society, we must encourage people who have been abused and betrayed by loved ones or this State; they should know that if they come forward, they will be listened to and justice will be sought. They will be believed.

Does the Taoiseach agree that the sentence handed down by the Central Criminal Court-----

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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I must interfere, although I do not like doing so. This is a matter that we-----

Billy Kelleher (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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I am not questioning the legitimacy-----

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Judiciary is entirely separate.

Billy Kelleher (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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I accept that.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Decisions of the court are entirely separate.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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People are outraged.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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That was the reason I did not allow topical issues today relating to this matter, as it was on advice I have been given. I gathered it would be the case. We cannot discuss in here decisions of the court or criticise those who make those decisions.

Billy Kelleher (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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I respect that ruling and I am not here to question the legitimacy of the Central Criminal Court. What I am raising are the legitimate concerns of the Irish people.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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Hear, hear.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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Hear, hear.

Billy Kelleher (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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There is significant anger at this sentencing. I do not wish to make a political football out of the this issue and the suffering of Ms Fiona Doyle. Our duty is to respond, and we must do so. Does the Taoiseach agree this is a major concern and we must do something about it? Does he agree that we must establish a sentencing council and that the Court of Criminal Appeal needs to have permanent specialist judges to adjudicate on sentencing? We must have clear guidelines for the areas of sentencing for crimes of rape and abuse.

This State has betrayed children before and apologised but we need to encourage people so that they know if they come forward, they will be listened to, believed and vindicated. What is the Government's response regarding the terms and concerns surrounding the sentencing arrangements, particularly for rape, as was evident in this case? It is an appalling, horrific-----

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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I am sorry but the Deputy cannot ask the Taoiseach, a Minister or anybody else to give an opinion on a decision of the court. We are talking about a judgment of a duly constituted court.

Billy Kelleher (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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I am talking about the general-----

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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They cannot be subjected to review or discussion in this House, as the House is not a judicial body.

Michael Healy-Rae (Kerry South, Independent)
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It is a general issue.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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I have to put that on record. That is the position.

Billy Kelleher (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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May I raise the issue of legislation in terms of mandatory sentencing?

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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No, the Deputy may not do so. I am sorry but I have to rule out his question as I would be in dereliction of my duties if I were not to do so.

Billy Kelleher (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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I accept that.

Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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On a point of order-----

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputies may not make points of order during Leaders' Questions. I ask speakers to adhere to the ruling of the Chair on this issue and avoid placing the House in a very embarrassing position.

Billy Kelleher (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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I do not wish to have a difficulty with the Chair but the issue I am raising-----

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy has been around for long enough to know that decisions of the courts may not be discussed in this Chamber.

Billy Kelleher (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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I have been a Member of the Oireachtas for 20 years and it beggars belief that Deputies cannot raise an issue of legitimate public concern.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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While that may be the case, the Oireachtas is not a judicial body. The Judiciary is independent of the Legislature.

Dinny McGinley (Donegal South West, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Kelleher should know better.

Billy Kelleher (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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The substance of the issue is the need for a sentencing council. The Oireachtas must examine the issue of providing for mandatory sentencing and clear guidelines-----

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputies may not refer to individual cases.

Billy Kelleher (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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-----to ensure consistency in sentencing. We must offer encouragement to people who have been raped and abused in order that they will know that if they come forward, they will be vindicated and fair sentences will be imposed on the perpetrators.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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We cannot interfere with the judicial decisions of an independent court. The Deputy cannot ask the Taoiseach or anyone else in this Chamber to give an opinion on a court decision as the Oireachtas is not a judicial body.

Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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He is not referring to a specific case but the need for a sentencing council.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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If the Taoiseach wishes to respond, I ask him to recognise the constraints under which the House operates.

Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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May I make a point of order, please?

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Yes.

Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Without referring to a specific case, can this issue be dealt with under promised legislation?

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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It is a matter for the Government of the day to decide whether it is bringing forward legislation.

Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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In that case, it would be in order for me to raise the matter.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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It is a matter for the Government of the day as to whether it brings forward legislation. However, the House cannot debate a decision of a court, as Deputy Adams is well aware.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I admire the courage of Fiona Doyle in doing what she did. This case, which involves the defilement of a child and the continuous rape of that child over a ten year period, has filled the nation with revulsion. I would like to believe that others who are or have been subjected to rape, incest or crimes of this horrific nature will not lose the courage to come forward and say their piece.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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They will certainly lose courage after yesterday.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The position is that the sentence in the case in question has been referred to the Court of Criminal Appeal for priority assessment. The issue of mandatory sentencing for particular crimes has been raised in the House over the years. It is a matter for the Government to reflect on the matter in so far as introducing legislation is concerned.

I accept the Ceann Comhairle's clarification of this issue. It is not open to me or anyone else in the House to refer to the nature or extent of the sentence.

I wish to repeat that Fiona Doyle's decision to bring the case to public scrutiny is an act of courage on her behalf and one for which I admire her. As I stated, the case has filled people with a sense of revulsion. It has been referred to the Court of Criminal Appeal as a priority and I trust the court will deal with it as a priority.

In response to the question raised by Deputy Kelleher, I hope that others who are abused or horrifically defiled, as occurred in the case in question, will not lose courage and will speak out as Ms Doyle has done.

Billy Kelleher (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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Fiona Doyle showed great courage and bravery in coming forward. The issue of concern, however, is the potential fallout of the case for people who may be very concerned about being brave, coming forward, waiving their right to privacy and opening up to the world about the torment they endured. The House has a clear obligation to act. As I pointed out, the State reneged on its right, responsibility and duty to protect children in its care and in the care of others who were acting on its behalf. An apology has been made in this House and a referendum on children has been passed. Parliament and citizens must now ensure that all those who have been or are being raped and abused have confidence that if they walk into a Garda station or contact a social worker, they will be vindicated and the State will protect their rights and ensure they receive justice in the courts. I am not questioning any individual court case but the effect of court cases can be to set a precedent or damage how we judge ourselves and view crimes in society. Our children need protection.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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One of the statements made by this Government was the appointment of a senior Cabinet Minister dealing with children and youth affairs. I commend the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs on the work that has been done to date in drawing all the elements of child care and related issues into a single Department, holding a referendum on children, bringing together the excellent work being done by the Garda vetting bureau in legislation dealing with mandatory reporting and addressing a range of issues related to the welfare of children, both now and in the future.

The issue raised by Deputy Kelleher in respect of the fallout from this particular case is one that concerns us all. The case has been referred to the Court of Criminal Appeal for priority treatment and I hope it will be dealt with as a matter of urgency. In that sense, the sentence will not be finally dealt with until the court makes its decision.

The courage of Fiona Doyle who went through horrific and barbaric treatment as a young girl speaks for itself. Few people can speak in the way she has been able to speak and the case has filled people with a sense of revulsion. Unfortunately, however, it is not the only such case that has come to light over the years. Deputy Kelleher will be well aware of other horrific cases.

From my perspective, it was very important to be able to establish, at government level, a senior position dealing with the legislation that will protect all our children in the future. This is a horrific case from the past, which is not yet over. From speaking to people all over the country today, revulsion is a word that has come to people's minds and tongues as a result of what happened in this case.

I hope the Court of Criminal Appeal will deal with the matter that has been referred to it in the shortest possible time. I admire Fiona Doyle and hope she speaks for all those young people who have been the victims of incest, rape and brutality, which have a devastating impact on their mental strength and relations with their families. Deputy Kelleher is clearly aware of the constraints I face in this regard.

Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I very much appreciate the need for Deputies to be very careful about how we deal with these issues and for this reason, I will ask the Taoiseach about promised legislation to reform the Courts Service and provide for a new court of appeal. I also wish to ask about the particular problems with the Court of Criminal Appeal, which is constituted on a part-time basis. The judges who sit in the court are drawn from the High Court and Supreme Court and have significant additional obligations elsewhere. Consequently, the court has a backlog and victims and accused persons experience major delays in having their cases processed. This has led to inconsistency and a lack of clarity in sentencing.

As we have seen, more coherence is necessary, particularly in respect of sexual offences against children. As the Taoiseach has acknowledged, there is widespread public concern following the outcome of yesterday's decision in the rape case in the Central Criminal Court.

My father was an abuser. Abuse creates in a family devastation that is beyond description. It takes a very strong family to cope. I am blessed that I have one. However, we have a duty to protect actively those who fall victim to abuse. Ms Fiona Doyle deserves the support of the Dáil.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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Hear, hear.

Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Given the difficulties with the justice system as outlined, one way to show support would be to introduce promised legislation on the reform of the courts system to provide for a new court of appeal.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I obviously read over the period the reports of the circumstances and impact on the Deputy's family in matters related to this. I can speak for everyone when I say that I admire the courage and bravery of Fiona Doyle in speaking out, but it is not just a case of the Oireachtas offering some sort of consolation or support. Sometimes, we lose sight of the really fundamental important issues in life in respect of families and relations with each other because of inadequacies of one element of our system or not.

Deputy Adams is well aware of the clear difference between the Oireachtas, the Government and the Judiciary and the clear lines of demarcation that are there. That is not to say that, as an Oireachtas, we should not discuss what it is we think is in the best interests of dealing with these kinds of situation that arise in our society with devastating impact for individuals and for families. I would certainly be happy to arrange, at an appropriate time, that we discuss within the Oireachtas the proposals the Minister for Justice and Equality is considering in respect of changes in the courts system. I obviously remind the Deputy that, to date, the Minister has already brought about some of the most fundamental changes in the legal system in more than 200 years.

This is a matter that is of interest to the Minister. I would suggest that we should have a discussion about what the Oireachtas feels should be put in place for the future, given that there are inadequacies in some respects in our courts system as it currently applies in terms of consistency, membership and the capacity to respond quickly.

Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Taoiseach for his answer. The Whips should work to make that happen as quickly as possible. However, related questions arise from these cases. The entire history of the case shows that Fiona Doyle experienced considerable difficulty in seeking legal redress. This is not uncommon.

I am not making a partisan point; I want to make a point in a fraternal way. Hundreds - maybe even scores of hundreds, for all I know - of women and children flee domestic and sexual abuse at home but cannot get accommodation. Any of the organisations that cater for those victims would tell one this. I refer to the Rape Crisis Centre and the other organisations working in this area.

Cuts in the number of people providing counsel, advice, assistance, support, love and protection are also having a sizable impact. Many of the homeless people we see on the streets who have fallen victim to drug or alcohol abuse also suffered sexual or other abuse in their earlier lives, either at home or at the hands of those in institutions. We need a wrapped around view.

As the Taoiseach and the Government are busy, and leaving aside ideological differences, it sometimes takes a case like this to shock us into responding in this way. A multi-agency, deep-rooted approach that puts children first is necessary. I would commend such an approach to the Government and I ask the Taoiseach to direct the Chief Whip to ensure we have a discussion as soon as possible.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I will certainly ensure that happens because it is a matter of considerable interest to everybody. I will put it this way - I was in a Garda station some time ago-----

Michael Healy-Rae (Kerry South, Independent)
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One of them was left open.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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-----and the sergeant showed me where a disturbance was taking place in a particular estate that was one of a continuous series of rows between a husband and a wife and where a family was involved. The end result was going to be the same as all the others, in that it would be patched up for a while before more or less erupting again.

When one talks to people, who is to say what happens in family circumstances? What happened in this case? When one sees the barring orders, the Rape Crisis Centre and the women's refuge, it is not all about money because there is fear in houses and complete domination in others. There are clearly women in Irish homes who suffer the ignominy and terror of being beaten up. To a much lesser extent, there are a number of males on the other hand who get subjected to particular pressures.

This is an issue we need to debate. That is why, from the point of view of children, the protection of children, the reporting about children and the vetting of adults dealing with children and who have access to children, the Government has a very clear position, one that is being worked on on a continuous basis and in respect of which the people have voted in regard to the rights, opportunities and responsibilities in regard to children. There is nothing more fundamental to Ireland and Irish society than this and I would be happy to arrange for an appropriate debate here where Members could give their views.

Clearly, the experience of individual Members of the Oireachtas ranges across a very broad spectrum but I think that, in the interests of assisting the Minister for Justice and Equality, who has particular proposals in respect of the courts, and the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs, who has an ongoing programme in regard to children, these are issues we need to examine.

I have seen people in the teaching profession who failed to see where clearly there were issues arising in families. There are others who, when they did identify, were not able to have it pursued because what happens behind closed doors oftentimes can be quite horrific and traumatic. That goes to the heart of everybody.

I do not have any objection, arising both from Deputy Adam's question and from Deputy Kelleher's, to having an appropriate debate both about the proposals of the Minister for Justice and Equality in respect of reform of the courts system and about his and the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs's proposals as to where we go in regard to the future.

As I said, it is not all about the amount of money made available to the Rape Crisis Centre or the women's refuge centre, the issues arising from barring orders or all of these things. They are all part of society. Too much of it was locked away, and frustration, anger and all of the other consequences followed. I admire Fiona Doyle's courage. As I said, I hope the Court of Criminal Appeal will deal with what has been referred to it now as a matter of urgency.

John Halligan (Waterford, Independent)
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In the Taoiseach's absence last week, I spoke of the estimated 700,000 people who were affected by some degree of poverty - many were also affected by unemployment - and the health problems associated with being unemployed.

This week, I will touch on the latest statistics to the effect that between 10% and 15% of people with jobs are at risk of poverty.

I imagine it is much higher. They are now known as the working poor and are barely above the threshold for a medical card. Going to see a GP and purchasing a prescription could amount to a quarter of their weekly income. In ten years, GP fees in this country have risen from an estimated €20 to €55. Some GPs still charge €60. In France today a GP charges €22. We now have a situation where people are choosing between paying their mortgage and going to see a GP. Once again, it looks as though the banks are winning out over the welfare of ordinary people.

Because of the exorbitant costs of seeing a GP, two distinct trends are now emerging in the nation’s health. First, a huge volume of people are cutting back on medication and trying to stretch it out. The big examples relate to medication for blood pressure and cholesterol. Pharmacists now report that many people, including those with chronic ailments and conditions such as asthma and heart problems, take their medication every other day in order to save going to a GP and paying for the medicine. Does the Taoiseach agree that those two trends are a ticking time-bomb for the nation’s health?

Customs officials informed me that in a three-month period last year they seized 300,000 prescription drugs. The Taoiseach and I are both aware of the many people who bulk buy cholesterol tablets, inhalers and antibiotics in Spain. Does he consider it just and fair that when every other worker in the country has been asked to take a substantial pay cut and almost all workers have had no pay increase for five or six years, GPs and pharmacists rip off working people by charging exorbitant prices? Last week a lady in Waterford with a take-home pay of €397 who came to see me had paid €137 to a GP.

When will the Government commence the reform of competition and practice in the health sector, as set out in the memorandum of understanding with the troika? The Taoiseach has been most proactive in meeting other demands of the EU and IMF. When will the Government move to extend the role of pharmacists as part of the primary care network by introducing initiatives such as medicine-use reviews, repeat dispensing and switching more medicines from prescription-only to pharmacy-only?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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No more than anybody else, we are interested in protecting, in so far as we can, lower and middle income families. That is why there was not an increase in income tax. That is also why the minimum wage was restored and, in so far as possible, such arrangements protected.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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That is illusionary.

Billy Kelleher (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Government should have increased income tax for those earning more than €100,000 instead of asking the poor to carry the burden.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The increase in prescription charges will have an impact on the extent of prescribing that has been ongoing by GPs throughout the country. The trends are clear in that regard.

I refer Deputy Halligan to the budget day announcement of the review of fees and allowances payable to health care professionals. They include general practitioners, pharmacists, dentists, ophthalmologists, optometrists and dispensing opticians who hold contracts with the HSE. The Minister decided that a consultation process would commence on 13 December 2012 and would be completed by 11 January 2013. Health professionals were invited to make written submissions to the Department and the Minister. The review will encompass, but is not confined to, fees and allowances which have been reduced previously under the Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest, FEMPI, Act 2009. The consultation process ended on 11 January. When the Department has considered the various points raised in the submissions, the Minister, taking into account the requirements under the FEMPI Act, will determine what fees and allowances should be reduced and by how much, after which the rates will be set out in regulations. I am aware of the point Deputy Halligan raised and a resolution is already in train following a decision made in the budget that is currently being implemented in terms of submissions received by the Minister for Health.

John Halligan (Waterford, Independent)
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I have been informed that competition law precludes the standardisation of GP fees. Am I correct in saying that? If that is the case, are we in a situation that, two years into the Government’s term of office and with all the cutbacks suffered by every other worker, someone can charge €50 or €60 for a three-minute consultation? I refer again to people who are just above the medical card threshold who are barely earning the minimum wage. How could it be justifiable that they would pay almost a third of their wages to go to a GP and then to a pharmacist for medicine when GPs, medicines and pharmaceutical outlays are cheaper all across Europe? It is immoral in the current economic circumstances that someone would charge such fees. Some friends of mine are doctors and I make it clear to them that I find it unacceptable that even as we speak some doctors still charge €60 in consultation fees. That is immoral and offensive for those who cannot afford to pay it.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Hear, hear.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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As Deputy Halligan is aware, approximately 1.8 million medical cards currently exist. That is higher than has ever been the case in this country.

Michael Healy-Rae (Kerry South, Independent)
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Many people are still waiting to hear whether they will get one.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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A lot of people are waiting.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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It is clear that people who are on lower income levels are eligible under certain conditions for medical cards. The Minister for Health has negotiated with drug companies to produce savings on drugs of-----

Billy Kelleher (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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He also negotiated a €25 million pension a few years ago.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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-----serious amounts in the region of €400 million in the coming years, with moneys coming through in 2013. The consultation process ended on 11 January. The submissions will now be reviewed by the Minister for Health and he will decide the level of fees and other changes to be made. The review is not confined to fees and allowances for those working in the public area. Deputy Halligan said GPs can charge certain fees for a three-minute consultation and that goes up the line in much higher proportions as well.