Dáil debates

Thursday, 17 January 2013

10:30 am

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform will agree there is no more important responsibility for the Government and the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine than to ensure the safety of food consumed by our citizens. The food industry is a vital one for the country. Its ultimate success depends on absolute confidence and trust in its operation, processes and, above all, in its products. Obviously, complete transparency is required at all times in the industry.


Regarding the contamination of beef products with horsemeat and pigmeat, the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine said yesterday that he was told only on Monday last for the first time. I accept the Minister's word. However, does the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform believe it is acceptable that, although positive tests for such contamination were conducted and obtained in November that the Minister responsible was only told last Monday? Is it acceptable he was only told last Monday about an issue so grave and profound for the industry's reputation? The departmental officials were informed by and asked to co-operate with the Food Safety Authority of Ireland, FSAI, on 21 December. Does the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform believe it is acceptable that officials did not tell the Minister in December about such a serious issue?


Who is heading up the investigation into this matter? Is the FSAI involved in it and will independent experts also be involved? Is the Government prepared to introduce a traceability system for horses, similar to that which exists for cattle, pigs and sheep? Last March, following a TV3 documentary and a major exposé in The Sunday Times on the illegal slaughtering of horses, my colleague Deputy Kelleher put down a question to the Minister on this matter of traceability. The Minister confirmed in his reply that there was no central database. I understand the number of horses slaughtered in this country has rocketed to 20,000 last year. There are clearly issues in this sector. In his reply to Deputy Kelleher, the Minister also did not commit to establishing such a traceability system. Will he now rethink this and will the Government commit to establishing such a traceability regime which is important for food safety?

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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All Deputies will agree the food industry is a critical part of our economic activity, as well as being critical to our export sector and to jobs. That is why we have such a high standard of oversight of food production in this country. It is the best, I would say, in the world. It is important to reiterate this is not a public health issue or relates to food safety but to food standards. It is important to bear this in mind with some of the questions raised, for example, in the United Kingdom because it does not do the level of testing we do here. Our food safety authority is not only focused on ensuring that no contaminants which would impact on the health of individuals go into any food product but that food products are as labelled. These high standards have been acknowledged, even in the past 24 hours.

To answer the specific questions raised by the Deputy, it will be a matter for the FSAI to conclude its current investigations. It is being assisted by the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine. Its inspectors have gone into the meat plants in question and I understand the results of the most recent testing will be made publicly available this afternoon. It is important we approach this entire episode in a completely open and transparent way and that the sequence of events, as laid out by the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine yesterday, is clear to the House and the public so we can have confidence in robust systems. Where failings occur, they will be identified because our systems are so robust.

As to what might follow on with further legislation or food tracing systems, all of this will be addressed once we find the source of the current contamination and give absolute assurances to the Irish people who consume these products and to any exporter who buys an Irish product that the highest standards we are determined to maintain are in place. We must assure them that there is no threat either to the safety or health of anybody - which is quite clear already - and that the product that is labelled is the product people get.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister did not answer my central question.

Photo of Finian McGrathFinian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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He ducked the question again.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The first batch of tests was completed at the end of November and proved positive for contamination. A further set of tests was carried out in December which proved equally positive. Why was the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine not told in November or December that such tests were being carried out and the results were positive? That is the fundamental question. Does the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform believe it is acceptable that the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine was not told in December by his officials or the FSAI that a major issue regarding our food industry's reputation had arisen? It is not a good enough answer to say it had to be confirmed in Germany before the Minister was told. I asked that question yesterday and I did not get an answer. There is still no answer to it. Is it acceptable that the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine was not told tests were going on and the results of these tests were positive?

10:40 am

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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This was laid out in some detail yesterday by the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine, Deputy Coveney. I will give Deputy Martin the sequence again for clarity. The first samples were taken by the Food Safety Authority of Ireland as part of the snapshot surveys that it does periodically across all food production in the country. These were taken in mid-November and sent for analysis to a private laboratory. In December the Food Safety Authority of Ireland took further samples at retail level and again had them analysed in a private laboratory.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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We know that. The question is why the Minister was not told then.

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Following this process, all the initial samples which tested positive were sent for analysis to a German laboratory, and the conclusive results from the German laboratory were received by the FSAI on Friday, 11 January, which was last Friday. The FSAI informed the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine of the results last Monday, 14 January.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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That is not the question I asked.

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Once that information was received in the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine, the Minister was informed, and the Minister informed the Cabinet at the first opportunity, which was the next day, Tuesday.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Should the Minister not have been informed in November?

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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We are going into a level of detail now.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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It is a basic question.

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I am not-----

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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We will not have a conversation across the floor. Through the Chair, please.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister has not answered the question.

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Through the Chair-----

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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The time has expired.

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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It really is important because the food industry in the country and the thousands of jobs that depend on it are of such importance that we must do this in a measured, open, transparent way.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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We know that.

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Until I know the exact information the FSAI had at any given point and passed on at the appropriate point-----

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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We know what information the FSAI had in November and December.

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Sorry, Deputy.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I want a straight answer to the question.

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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All of this - the sequence of events, the degree of knowledge and the quality of the result - can be put in clear questions to the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine. He will lay it out it a completely open and transparent way.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Why can we not be given a straight answer?

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Let us all work to ensure that the regulatory regime, the food safety standards and the oversight procedures we have in the country have worked. They identified the issue. Irish products were examined by Irish authorities and the results were made known by Irish authorities in order that the standards we demand are maintained.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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He did not answer the question.

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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This morning the latest survey from the Irish League of Credit Unions revealed that 1.6 million people are left with €50 or less to spend at the end of each month after they meet their household bills. The survey reflects that since October last an additional 230,000 people have fallen into this bracket. This is a direct result of the Government's austerity policies and its most recent austerity budget. That is before the dreaded family home tax is imposed.

The family home tax is the brainchild of Fianna Fáil and it will have serious implications for households that are already teetering on the brink. It will especially punish those on low and middle incomes. It will punish social welfare recipients and even those with disabilities. It takes no account of ability to pay, people's mortgages, the amounts people have paid in stamp duty or whether a household is in negative equity. The Government is almost two years in office and its response to those struggling with significant mortgages is to lump more taxes on them, but this is a tax too far.

Where does the Minister, Deputy Howlin, propose that these 1.6 million people should get the money to pay the family home tax? The Minister should bear in mind that these are not only families dependent on social welfare payments. Many of them are working families and families in which two people are out at work, but they simply cannot afford this family home tax. Where are they to get the money? How many more citizens will be pushed over the brink by this family home tax?

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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The notion that we can have a debate as if we are in a vacuum and not in an economic crisis that every household in the country knows about never ceases to amaze me. I am acutely aware, as is the Government, of the pressure on citizens throughout the State because of the economic catastrophe that the country met due to bad political and economic decisions made in recent times.

The Deputy is referring to a survey done by the Irish League of Credit Unions. It is interesting to note that the Central Statistics Office publication of 14 January contains some interesting facts on savings. This is factual and not based on surveys or opinions; these are factual issues. The gross savings ratio increased in the last quarter of last year. Savings were at an unprecedented level of 14.5% and increased in the last quarter of last year to 16%. The normal level of savings in a functioning economy is of the order of 7%.

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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The rich are saving.

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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One thing we need to do is to get people to spend money in the economy rather than save it. The strategy of the Government from the beginning has been focused on restoring the economy and getting the economic infrastructure right to create jobs. In the three years before the Government came to power a staggering 250,000 private sector jobs were lost. It is almost mind-numbing. Naturally, this has had an impact on households throughout the country and their capacity to pay bills, but we have begun the process of reversing that. In the past 12 months 12,000 net new jobs in the private sector have been created. We have several labour market activation measures in place. We will have a Cabinet meeting on the jobs crisis this afternoon. From the very beginning our focus has been on getting our economy repaired and getting people back to work in order to lift them out of the pressures that the Opposition has referred to.

The notion that when faced with a vast deficit we can continue to fund services to the level that we had without increasing taxes is fanciful and the Deputies opposite know that.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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That is what the Government promised.

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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We have a clearly defined strategy to repair the economy and work towards a balanced budget. We have stimulus and job creation measures that are working demonstrably, including the jobs initiative, which we established within 100 days of coming to office and which has resulted, instead of decline, in-----

Photo of Michael Healy-RaeMichael Healy-Rae (Kerry South, Independent)
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The Government has no jobs initiative in Kerry; there is none.

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Sorry; we are over time.

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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There are discordant voices talking about individual sectors. Let us take tourism, which is important to such counties as Kerry. Fáilte Ireland has reported that there are 5,000 net additional jobs in the sector since we set up the jobs initiative within 100 days of coming into office. These are measures to address the issues of poverty and joblessness, and our efforts are working demonstrably.

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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I hope the Minister is not questioning the validity of the survey carried out by the Irish League of Credit Unions, although it sounded remarkably like it. The Minister certainly lives in a vacuum or bubble if he is unaware of the extent to which households are struggling, and the Irish League of Credit Unions is truthfully and accurately reflecting that reality. The Government cannot expect people to spend in the domestic economy if they do not have the money to spend.

I would have appreciated an answer to my question. Perhaps when he takes to his feet for a second time the Minister will do me that courtesy. I want to know where these 1.6 million individuals and their families will find the additional resources to pay the Government's family home tax. I suspect the Minister has not given me a straight answer because he knows full well that those individuals have no prospect whatsoever of finding that additional resource. This will not mean additional savings for those people and their families.

It will mean additional hardship and debt. The Minister rushed through the House the proposal for the family tax which he borrowed from Fianna Fáil. Perhaps those on the Government benches had not thought through fully the implications of that tax. Today's credit union survey asks them to do just that. With €50 per month disposable income, which is €12.50 per week, individuals and their families cannot pay a family home tax. I ask Deputy Brendan Howlin to tell me where those individuals and families identified in the survey will find the €300 to €500 per annum he demands from them.

10:50 am

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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As I said in my initial reply, the Government is acutely aware of the pressures on individuals but Deputy Mary Lou McDonald does not listen.

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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I listened very carefully.

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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The Minister thinks we are all saving our money.

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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The Government is acutely aware of the pressure on families and the impact on them of additional taxation.

Photo of Aengus Ó SnodaighAengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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That makes it worse.

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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The job of the Government is to maintain basic services which we are doing by borrowing over €1 billion per month, notwithstanding the additional burden in taxation which has been placed on people.

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Answer my question. Where will they find your money?

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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The objective of broadening the tax base is to be in tandem with every other progressive country with a social democratic view of how taxation should be levied. We want to avoid levying taxes exclusively on labour and work.

Photo of Joe HigginsJoe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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Where is the €4 billion coming from?

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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There was a time when the Deputies opposite saw assets as something which should be taxed.

Photo of Joan CollinsJoan Collins (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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The family home is not an asset.

Photo of Pearse DohertyPearse Doherty (Donegal South West, Sinn Fein)
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It is the biggest debt people have.

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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The biggest asset most people have is their own house and that is taxed in most jurisdictions.

Photo of Finian McGrathFinian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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You took €10 from children.

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I do not cast any doubts on the survey which I am sure is genuine and clear. However, the facts on savings are as stated. Savings increased in the last quarter of last year by over €1 billion.

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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You are not answering my question.

Photo of Aengus Ó SnodaighAengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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Tax savings more.

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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The Government's ambition is very clear. We need to work over time towards a balanced budget, which we are doing. That means squeezing expenditure as best we can while maintaining public services.

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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"Squeeze" is the word.

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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We need to broaden the tax base in accordance with the agreed programme for Government. We need a stimulus plan for jobs to create an environment in which people who are under pressure and unemployed can find work.

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Tell families where they are to find the additional money. You cannot.

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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We need a banking debt solution which we are working on as well. The economic strategy of the Government is bearing fruit.

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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It is in tatters.

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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We understand the pressures people are under but are offering a solution rather than decrying the calamitous circumstances the Government inherited from its predecessors.

Photo of John HalliganJohn Halligan (Waterford, Independent)
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I wish the Ceann Comhairle well for the new year as I do all Members, staff of the Houses and press representatives. Ireland's unemployment rate is the fourth highest in the EU with long-term unemployment accounting for 60% of people who are unemployed. Only massive emigration is keeping unemployment below the 500,000 mark. Surely, the Minister will concur that the onset of the economic downturn is one of the greatest threats to public health in the history of the State. Having no job is seen as an economic problem but it damages the physical and mental health of people who are unemployed causing heart disease, high blood pressure, depression and anxiety.

The links between unemployment and health receive little or no attention from Government and policy makers. Job loss is associated with elevated rates of mental and physical health problems, increased mortality and detrimental changes to family relationships and the psychological well-being of spouses and children. The Irish Mental Health Commission, EU and World Health Organisation have all released reports recently which set out compelling statistics on the negative effect of the recession on national psychological health and well-being. Mental health across the population, particularly among men, has deteriorated since the onset of austerity measures over the last number of years. Suicide levels are increasing at an alarming rate, particularly among young unemployed men. Figures from the Irish Association of Suicidology suggest that for every percentage increase in unemployment, there is a corresponding increase of 0.7% in the incidence of suicide.

With 700,000 people on or below the poverty line and more than 200,000 children going to school hungry or without proper clothing, two national organisations - the Society of St. Vincent de Paul and Social Justice Ireland - which advocate for those people have seemingly been ignored. Why was there no in-depth social impact assessment carried out prior to the publication of the budget to ensure the circumstances of those experiencing poverty and social exclusion would not be made worse by austerity measures? Will the Minister give a commitment to the House, prior to the publication of the national social report for 2012, to agree to an impact study and to establish a task force comprising the Society of St. Vincent de Paul, Social Justice Ireland, MABS, the Mental Health Commission and Aware to deal with the serious health problems associated with unemployment?

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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From the very establishment of the Government and before in the discussions on a programme for Government, Fine Gael and the Labour Party were absolutely clear that the primary objective of the Government was economic recovery. A core part of that and the primary issue for Government was the creation of jobs. The Government accepts fully the point made by Deputy John Halligan that the impact of joblessness is huge on the mental, physical and economic well-being of our people and on the structure of our society. That is why jobs have been at the heart of everything we have tried to do from the moment of the establishment of the Government. Within 100 days of taking office, we established the first jobs initiative and set out our strategy to repair the economy and create an environment for investment. We have had some significant successes to date but there is no doubt that there is a ways to go. We have the strategy to address the issues and I can lay out to the House in some detail what action has been taken.

Our first act was to abandon the failed strategy of our predecessor Government which sought to build an economy on property, banking and debt. We have sought to move to an economy based on enterprise, exports and innovation, the strategy which led to recovery at the end of the 1990s. The level of unemployment is wholly unacceptable which is why the Government is determined to work might and main to address the problem. We have moved in the right direction. The IDA reported 12,000 net new jobs in the last two years while Enterprise Ireland reported 3,804 in 2012. In 2011, Irish exports reached the highest level ever at €173 billion, exceeding the level of exports during the boom years. In the years 2008 to 2010, we lost 40,000 jobs in the export sector but in 2011, we gained an additional 10,000. As I said when referring to Fáilte Ireland, we have recently seen the first significant rise in employment in the tourism sector since 2008.

The strategies are working and we have a way to go. We are very aware that this is our number one priority which is why we have a special Cabinet meeting devoted to this where every Minister will make a series of proposals that will be drawn together this afternoon.

11:00 am

Photo of John HalliganJohn Halligan (Waterford, Independent)
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The Minister is out of touch with reality. Over Christmas, many thousands of people throughout the country had no heating, no television service and no proper food. I ask the Minister to acknowledge that this is the case and if so, to take the opportunity to meet the people working in front line services like the Society of St. Vincent de Paul and Social Justice Ireland, whom he ignored in the previous budget, and to undo the mistake he made in the two most recent budgets. He should bring in the groups working with the 700,000 people who are our people and who voted for and put their trust in us in the last election so they could have a better quality of life. Instead they are condemned to poverty, despair and desolation. I will not get into an argument because I am into conciliation rather than confrontation but I appeal to the Minister to meet Social Justice Ireland and the Society of St. Vincent de Paul as I and many other Deputies have done and to listen to what they have to say, which might shock him, rather than talk to them for five or six minutes. I understand the Minister did not meet the Society of St. Vincent de Paul before the last budget. I urge him to set up this task force because he would do a great service to all those who are ill on the unemployment system.

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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To clarify matters, both the Minister for Finance and I met Social Justice Ireland and the Society of St. Vincent de Paul before the budget. Social Justice Ireland held a formal meeting this week with the Secretary General of my Department so we are very aware and in touch and I know the Deputy will acknowledge that. We are aware of the impact of the economic catastrophe that has befallen this country but there is no point in decrying it. We must present solutions and hope to people and have set out our journey to recovery. We have travelled a fair degree of that journey but we have a way to go and we know there are people who are hurting badly. We will do everything we can to sustain the supports we have. We must borrow to do so in terms of social protection, health, education and so on and at the same time, ensure we create an environment that will put growth, jobs and investment back in our economy and break away from the dependency on the troika so we can make our economic decisions. We are on the path to that recovery and I think people will stay with this Government because they know we are competently walking down that road.