Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Amendments Nos. 1 and 2 are related and will be discussed together.

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal North East, Sinn Fein)
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I move amendment No. 1:

In page 7, between lines 6 and 7, to insert the following:"11.—(1) A Civil Defence Expert Advisory Panel shall be established which will have the following function of advising the Minister in relation to all or any of the following:

(a) such policy matters relating to the operation and future development of civil defence as the Minister may request or as the Panel considers appropriate;

(b) the implementation of measures considered necessary for the effective operation of civil defence;

(c) any other matter relating to the Panel’s functions as the Panel considers appropriate or as requested by the Minister.

(2) The Panel shall consist of at least 8 but not more than 14 members who shall be appointed by the Minister.

(3) The members of the Panel shall be—

(a) the secretary general of the Department,

(b) a person nominated by the County and City Managers Association,

(c) a person nominated by the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government who, in the opinion of that Minister, has relevant experience or expertise relating to emergency planning,

(d) a person nominated by the Radiological Protection Institute of Ireland,

(e) a person nominated by the Environmental Protection Agency,

(f) a member of the Civil Defence Officers Association nominated by it,

(g) an officer of the Defence Forces nominated by the Chief of Staff of the Defence Forces,

(h) a member of the Garda Síochána nominated by the Commissioner of the Garda Síochána, and

(i) a volunteer member of civil defence.

(4) In making appointments to the Panel under this section, the Minister shall ensure that not less than 4 of the members of the Panel shall be women and not less than 4 shall be men.

(5) The Civil Defence Expert Advisory Panel shall meet on a biannual basis.

(6) The Minister shall ensure that no cost is placed on the Exchequer in establishing this Expert Panel.".

The other amendment I have tabled deals with resources. In the existing criteria every local authority must put together a plan which it submits to the Civil Defence board in which the local authority outlines its priorities and strategies. A funding allocation is then made to the local authority. The difficulty now is that there does not appear to be within the Bill any clear criteria for how the Minister would deploy his or her resources. I appreciate it is made clear in the Bill that €70,000, which is not a huge sum of money, is being saved by this. No cut is being made to the budget.

The difficulty in this area is that there are a lot of cutbacks to local authorities, including huge changes to their budgets and consequently how they operate. It is very important that on an ongoing basis resources are there for training and re-training to deal with new techniques, equipment and health and safety processes. We want to ensure that all the strengths continue in operation. All of us are immensely proud of the work done by the Civil Defence teams. In the bad winter, from late 2010 to early 2011, County Donegal had freezing conditions for a sustained period of two months, as did the rest of the country. I was the chairperson of the roads and transport committee on Donegal County Council at the time. It was a case of putting all shoulders to the wheel, including the farming organisations. The Defence Forces were called out to inaccessible places and it was a remarkable team effort in which the Civil Defence played a key role. I am sure the Minister of State could cite as many such stories also, and he has been longer in politics than I have. We must continue to resource and value the professionalism and dedication of these local men and women. We need to continue availing of their range of skills.

Apart from that, we do not have any difficulties with the principle of the Bill.

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Fianna Fail)
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I will be brief. Like Deputy Mac Lochlainn, I acknowledge the high standing of the Civil Defence organisation and its personnel across the country who do wonderful work. My amendment seeks to ensure that the external contacts that have been used to the benefit of the Civil Defence will continue in the new scenario.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I thank both Deputies for their contributions. I will deal first with amendment No. 1 from Deputy Mac Lochlainn. I do not propose to accept this amendment. It is not intended to put the forum on a statutory basis as I do not want to abolish one body and simply create another, thereby diluting the Government's policy of reducing the number of State agencies and boards. That policy is proposed in the programme for Government. I can assure the Deputy that the Civil Defence will still operate in the same manner as it has previously. Even before the Bill was published, I indicated that it was my intention after the dissolution of the board to establish a forum to harness the collective focus of the key stakeholders in the wider field of emergency planning for the benefit of the Civil Defence and the branch of my Department which will be charged with the future management and development of the organisation at national level.

It is also intended that the civil defence forum will be a non-statutory consultative body, which will be as flexible as possible in its operations and will be able to consult widely as required. The majority of the parties listed in the proposed amendment will be represented on the forum.

There will further scope for the remainder and, indeed, other statutory and non-statutory bodies to be included where matters of particular interest are being discussed. It is important for the forum to retain the maximum level of flexibility in its operations and I am therefore strongly of the view that it would be hampered by having specific provisions relating to its composition enshrined in the legislation. I hope the Deputy understands where I am coming from on that.

The purpose of the forum will be to provide advice as required and to provide a structure for stakeholders to interact with the Civil Defence branch within the Department. The forum is intended to operate at a strategic level on defence matters and wider developments in the area of emergency response and other issues that might impact on civil defence.

Membership of the forum will comprise nominated representative bodies such as the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government, An Garda Síochána, the HSE, the City and County Managers Association, the Civil Defence Officers' Association, and a representative from the Civil Defence volunteer body. That encompasses everyone involved in the civil defence movement to represent the views of everybody on the board. I hope the Deputy will acknowledge the reasons why I am not accepting his amendment on this occasion.

I also do not propose to accept amendment No. 2, in the name of Deputy Ó Fearghaíl. Section 12 allows for the Minister to determine the format and content of a civil defence plan submitted by a local authority for consideration. Nothing in this section or in the Bill precludes the Minister, if he or she considers it necessary, from consulting with external bodies or agencies both before and after plans are submitted by local authorities. We all understand the importance of a civil defence plan, as Deputy Ó Fearghaíl has outlined. The civil defence plan submitted by a local authority will already have been approved by the relevant city and county manager. The civil defence officer will have been part of the management team that prepared the plan at local level.

A civil defence plan will be unique to each individual authority. The provisions of the Bill, which are similar to those in the 2002 Act, will allow for further consultation with authorities on their plans, if considered necessary.

One of the purposes of the Bill for the civil defence branch of the Department is to get back to devoting more resources to deal with the real business of civil defence which is emergency preparedness and the development and implementation of training programmes for volunteers, so that the organisation can deliver effective support to the front-line emergency services and continue with its community support activities. As a small stand-alone State body, the board was constrained by the same level of governance that related to obligations as would be required of a much larger organisation. As a part of a Department that burden will be considerably reduced, thereby allowing more time for strengthening the network and the relationship with stakeholders such as local authorities that the Civil Defence has developed at national level over the years, and also with other key players in the wider area of emergency planning.

Both Deputies have outlined the importance of the Civil Defence. I can assure them that the Department will operate with the same vigour as the board did to ensure that the Civil Defence runs a smooth operation as well as highlighting the importance of civil defence in every village, town and city across the country.

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Fianna Fail)
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I accept the Minister of State's good faith in this matter. I am concerned, however, that in the establishment of the forum it has been decided not to include the Radiological Protection Institute of Ireland. It is not included in the list the Minister of State read out to us.

The Civil Defence has benefitted from the external inputs that have come from the variety of agencies that were previously involved in the board, so why drop the Radiological Protection Institute of Ireland? Why not have it as part of the forum?

If, in putting his proposals together, the Minister of State could drop the Radiological Protection Institute of Ireland, we would be concerned that were there not a greater onus on the Minister, he might not consult as widely in respect of the civil defence plans that are so important on a county by county basis.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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The body to which the Deputy refers will be represented by the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government. That means that if the forum requires further expertise or advice, any such bodies can be invited to give advice on such occasions if required. I understand the importance of the Deputy's point, but the board must be workable in terms of civil defence. The Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government will represent the views of that organisation. If required, the forum will invite any such bodies in for their expertise or advice.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Is amendment No. 1 being pressed?

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal North East, Sinn Fein)
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Yes.

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Fianna Fail)
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I move amendment No. 2:

In page 7, between lines 32 and 33, to insert the following:"(4) The Minister shall consider the adequacy or otherwise of a civil defence plan and/or a revised civil defence plan so as to ensure, as far as is practicable, that such plan meets with the criteria as set out in subsection (3) and in considering same, the Minister will consult with any or all of the following:

(a) the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government;

(b) the Radiological Protection Institute of Ireland;

(c) Environmental Protection Agency;

(d) Civil Defence Officers Association;

(e) an Garda Síochána.".

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Is amendment No. 2 being pressed?

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Fianna Fail)
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Yes.

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal North East, Sinn Fein)
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I move amendment No. 3:

In page 7, after line 43, to insert the following:

“13.—The Minister shall ensure that each local authority is resourced accordingly in order to fulfil its civil defence plans as set out in section 12.”.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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First, I do not propose to accept this amendment. However, I assure the Deputy that for as long as I remain a Minister of State in the Department of Defence and in so far as the national finances can allow, the Civil Defence will be funded in the same manner as it has been to date. I understand the importance of the Deputy's point in this regard. He will understand that while the funding from the local authorities primarily is a matter for the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government, to encourage local authorities to meet their obligations in respect of Civil Defence, my Department provides a grant aid to each authority amounting to 70% of approved expenditure each year on Civil Defence activities within its area. In addition, other supports, such as centralised training, policy advice and provision of major items of specialised equipment for authorities are 100% funded by my Department. As I stated previously, the level of funding for the Civil Defence has remained at €5.58 million per annum at a time of major cuts in other areas. One of my priorities in fighting my corner is to make sure that funding is retained in the future.

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Fianna Fail)
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I move amendment No. 4:

In page 9, between lines 29 and 30, to insert the following:

“(d) the Mayor or Cathaoirleach of the local authority concerned.”.

This is a simple and very straightforward amendment that also goes to a point of principle, in that the elected members at local authority level should not be prevented from having all the information that might be required from time to time to allow them to fulfil their remit. Legislation of any form that effectively excludes local elected representatives is not good legislation. I acknowledge the Minister of State is committed to local government reform and to empowering local government. Consequently, he should not then bring forward legislation that excludes members of local authorities from full participation. A case can be made clearly that from time to time, members of the local authority may have information that could be of use to the local authority and to the Civil Defence. It would be useful, were they in a position, via their cathaoirleach or mayor, to check the register and to verify the information contained therein is in accordance with the facts as they know them.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Deputy. As I stated previously on Committee Stage, the requirement to develop a centralised register of Civil Defence volunteer members was introduced in the Civil Defence Act 2002 and a web-based electronic register now is in use by all local authorities. Prior to that, there was no effective centralised register apart from an amalgamation of local authority manual records. The register contains personal and confidential details on Civil Defence volunteers and captured information, other than that specified in the Act, such as health, training and qualification records. As this information is of a confidential nature, it must be protected in accordance with the data protection guidelines. What is proposed in the Bill is largely a continuation of what is contained in the 2002 Act. The Civil Defence is registered with the Office of the Data Protection Commissioner as a data controller under the Data Protection Acts 1988 and 2003. The aforementioned Acts place the responsibility for the duty of care owed to personal data on the data controller. A data controller must have a sound, clear and legitimate purpose for collecting personal data and must ensure the data are securely retained. To maintain registration, the Civil Defence must complete an annual registration form outlining a description of the data, the purpose for which the data are held, as well as the permitted disclosees of the data. In the case of the Civil Defence, the stated purpose of retention of data is the provision of a voluntary support service to the primary emergency services and the local authority or local community.

The list of disclosees, that is, those who can access the data is limited to Civil Defence headquarters personnel and designated local authority employees who have legitimate need to access the register in the course of their work. The guidance note for data controllers on purpose limitation and retention issued by the Office of the Data Protection Commissioner is very clear and states:

Data Controllers who obtain personal data from a data subject may do so for one or more specific, lawful and clearly stated purposes. It is unlawful to collect information about people routinely and indiscriminately – a data controller must have a sound, clear and legitimate purpose for collecting personal data. An individual has a right to question the purpose for which you hold his [or] her data and you must be able to identify that purpose.

Since its introduction, no issues have arisen with regard to the operation of the volunteer register and training database and it is working very well in its current format. I also emphasised on Committee Stage that this pertains to volunteers and not to local authority employees. The protection of the privacy of Civil Defence volunteers is paramount and potential volunteers could be reluctant to join the Civil Defence if they thought their personal information was being made more widely accessible. Volunteers have confidence in the confidentiality of the register, as structured, that persons accessing their information have a sound, legitimate purpose for so doing and this is a key to its successful operation. In conclusion, I note that a previous company with which I worked had access to a huge database and I recall that just before I left the company, the Data Protection Commissioner indicated that the database in question could not be shared with anyone. As for the database in the Deputy's own constituency, I presume it contains personal information. While he is not talking about going public with it, one keeps to a small number those with whom one would share that personal information. As this is how the data should be kept, I therefore will not accept the Deputy's amendment.

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Fianna Fail)
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With the greatest of respect to the Minister of State, his response does not make sense because under the provisions of the legislation before Members, the county manager could nominate any number of members of his or her staff to have access to this information.

I am sure the Minister of State means no offence to local authority members but implicit in his response is the view that the mayor or cathaoirleach of a county or city council cannot be trusted. That is basically what is being said. It seems to be fine for any number of directors of service to have access to the information but it is not fine for an elected member who is the official face of the local authority to have access to the information where necessary. That is where we have a fundamental disagreement on the matter and I ask the Minister of State to reconsider the position.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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This is not about trusting a cathaoirleach or mayor. We are talking about volunteers in an organisation that give freely of medical records, for example, or other personal details. As I have outlined, the advice of the Data Protection Commissioner is that this information should not be freely available. The Deputy is well aware that a county or city manager will appoint a person with specific responsibility for the Civil Defence board in his or her own city or council. That person will, on occasions, access the personal records of any volunteer member. We should recognise that this affects the volunteers currently in the organisation and those which we hope will join.

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Fianna Fail)
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The county manager may appoint anybody to do that from within his or her staff. There is no limit in the legislation on the number of people allowed to access this information. I am simply advocating that the mayor or cathaoirleach of the local authority should, if necessary, have access to the information. The status of the people in question as volunteers has no bearing whatever on who may access this information.

I do not accept the Minister of State's point that allowing the mayor or cathaoirleach to have access to this information is in some way throwing the doors open to widely publishing the information. I cannot see any reason for the Data Protection Commissioner to have any difficulty with a mayor or cathaoirleach having that information if the need arose.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I understand the Deputy's persistence with this amendment and how strongly he feels about it. Unfortunately, I will not accept the amendment.

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Fianna Fail)
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That is not surprising.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I thank Deputies and Senators for their comments during the debate as the Bill went through the Houses. There were some very good contributions in both Houses and I appreciate them. I thank the officials for the work put into the Bill and everybody recognises the importance of the work done by the Civil Defence. I wish a happy Christmas and a peaceful new year to all the Civil Defence members across the country.