Dáil debates

Tuesday, 18 December 2012

Ceisteanna - Questions (Resumed)

Cabinet Confidentiality

4:20 pm

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

To ask the Taoiseach the progress that is being made in his Department in the commitment to legislate for Cabinet confidentiality as outlined in his Department's strategy statement; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [48015/12]

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

To ask the Taoiseach the plans he has to introduce legislation to deal with the issue of Cabinet confidentiality. [49777/12]

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

A Cheann Comhairle, I propose to take Questions Nos. 2 and 3 together.

Cabinet confidentiality is provided for in the Constitution and I have no plans for legislation on the matter.

Photo of Seán Ó FearghaílSeán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the Taoiseach for his response, but it is quite extraordinary that he has so rapidly abandoned a commitment in the programme for Government. I suppose it is just one of many commitments that have already been abandoned and of many election promises that have been treated with total abandon as well.


The Taoiseach's Department's strategy statement said the Government would legislate on the issue of Cabinet confidentiality. We saw, in the course of the preparation of the most recent budgets, the Economic Management Council functioning as a de facto Cabinet. We used to have kitchen Cabinets, now we have an Economic Management Council. It would appear that the reason that was adopted was to ensure the minimisation of leaks from Government, which were happening every hour of every day in the run-up to last year's budget.


This year, the Taoiseach managed to keep things quite tight until he went to Cabinet with his set of proposals. Then we found ourselves with a budget that had very few surprises in it, with the exception, perhaps, of the misery the Government was intent on inflicting on carers.


Can the Taoiseach explain what has motivated him to abandon the promise he included in the programme for Government and in his Department's strategy statement? At one time, the Taoiseach promised to issue report cards for each of his Ministers. Has he been checking their performances with regard to maintaining confidentiality or leaking on an ongoing basis?


I assume the Taoiseach himself is firmly committed to Cabinet confidentiality. What is he doing, on an ongoing basis, to address the regular leaks from Cabinet and what action can the public expect him to take in a situation where he can identify a member of Cabinet who has been responsible for a significant leak? In government in the past, the Taoiseach's party had to take the extraordinary step of removing a junior Minister who leaked the entire budget in one go. Maybe his only mistake was to give it all out at once. In recent times we have been getting it in dribs and drabs.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Deputy Ó Fearghaíl will recall the Howlin judgment when the confidentiality of correspondence received by Members of the House was challenged. That will be dealt with in the whistleblowers legislation in 2013.

I have read some of the material that purports to be from the Cabinet. I paraphrase Mark Twain and say those rumours are greatly exaggerated. I have read of vicious rows, walk-outs and this, that and the other. I assure the Deputy the Government is completely focused on its work for the country, our national challenges, our people and getting our economy right. Confidentiality is something all Ministers sign up to, in terms of the Official Secrets Act. In that context, legislation is not necessary.

I remind Ministers on a regular basis of the importance of keeping that confidentiality. I have no control over rumours, speculation or allegations. If we go back as far as 1922 and look at reports of every Government since, we see the same old story applies. Those outside the Cabinet like to write about what they think goes on in there. There have been occasions in the past when some of these things happened to be true. I can assure the Deputy that the recent headlines I have read are very far wide of the mark.

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am nor surprised by that because all the rumours and leaks imply that Labour stood up to the Fine Gael Government. I do not see any evidence of that.

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We could be court-martialled yet.

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Deputy Howlin is pirouetting over the poor.

The programme for Government contains a commitment to legislate on the issue of Cabinet confidentiality and he says he will not act on that. It also commits to opening the budget process to the full glare of public scrutiny in a way that restores confidence. The programme for Government also says the Government is too centralised and unaccountable and that a real shift in power from the State to citizens is required.

Have all those pledges been torn up?

The Economic Management Council put together the budget. Four men put together an anti-woman, anti-family, anti-children budget. There is less scrutiny of all of these decisions in this Chamber, where we are supposed to debate them, than is the case in other parliaments. We only hear about them through the media, accurately or otherwise, or from the Bundestag. We do not hear about them in here in the way we should. There is no proper scrutiny because we are not given the information to do the job we were sent here to do.

To be clear about this, is the Taoiseach saying he is not moving on the commitment in the programme for Government to legislate on Cabinet confidentiality? Is he going to move on the commitment to shift power from the State to citizens? Will he move on the commitment to making the Dáil more open to public scrutiny, and if so, when? What status has any pending legislation?

What steps does the Taoiseach intend to take around the budget? Once again today, budget measures will be rushed through. How will the budget process be opened up to public scrutiny, particularly here in Dáil Éireann?

4:30 pm

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Deputy will be aware Article 28.4.3° of the Constitution states:

The confidentiality of discussions at meetings of the Government shall be respected in all circumstances save only where the High Court determines that disclosure should be made in respect of a particular matter -(i) in the interests of the administration of justice by a Court, or

(ii) by virtue of an overriding public interest, pursuant to an application in that behalf by a tribunal appointed by the Government or a Minister of the Government on the authority of the Houses of the Oireachtas to inquire into a matter stated by them to be of public importance.
In that sense, confidentiality is paramount in the Constitution and should never be abused by any Cabinet.


The Deputy mentioned information being made available by the Bundestag. I admit there was an indiscreet leak from the European Commission in respect of the requirement that when the general proposals for the budget are put together, they must be presented to lender countries as a requirement of the funding mechanism. We have changed the situation so that when that information is presented, it is laid in the Oireachtas Library at the same time in order that there is no confusion.


Ministers hope the presentation of the budget will take place in November next year. We have published the review of expenditure, setting out the ceilings for each of the next three years. We have asked every Department and Minister to examine those limits and present their views. We have restored the Freedom of Information Act, the whistleblowers' legislation is in train, the register of lobbyists legislation is being prepared and we have expanded the role of the Ombudsman. In a short time, given the extent of legislation that must go through, a great deal has been done.


Given all of the information that was made available to Deputy Adams and his colleagues, it was strange that Sinn Féin did not show any seriousness about making really tough choices. The party did not submit its own proposals for the budget for independent costing and analysis by the independent unit of the Department of Finance. All of the information is available for the Deputy, and that will be supplemented during 2013 when we also hope to have an earlier budget process. Deputy Adams should make sure his people are prepared.

Photo of Seán Ó FearghaílSeán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Did the Taoiseach have advice from the Attorney General on the proposed legislation on Cabinet confidentiality? In light of the many commitments made by Government about reform of politics, it would appear we are seeing the actual reform. At Cabinet level, it involves a small cohort of four people making the principal decisions and bringing those decisions to the full Cabinet at the last minute. The Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine has complained about this and I suspect some of the decisions made about not proceeding with the additional 3% universal social charge on people earning over €100,000 might not have been agreed if the entire Cabinet had been involved. We might not have seen carers being abandoned in the way they have been.

Here in the House, the new politics is to guillotine critical legislation, such as the Social Welfare Bill, which will be guillotined in the Seanad this afternoon, and we see the appalling procedure being adopted for the property tax proposal. We know it will not come into play until July and there is time for detailed discussion. At least there should be time for a fair debate on the 88 amendments tabled to the Bill because, when enacted, this legislation will place an intolerable burden on the shoulders of many people in the State who are unable to carry their current burdens.

Does the Taoiseach accept we are now seeing real reforms but not the reforms people thought they would see, not the positive initiatives the public, when they placed their faith in the Government parties in substantial numbers in 2011, thought they would get and that they had a right to get?

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Economic Management Council is a useful method of dealing with a range of issues and proposals before they are sent to Government for final decision by the Cabinet. Every member of the Government accepts the decision of the Cabinet on the budget. It has been streamlined like this to save time as much as anything else. Ministers had to have bilateral meetings with the Minister of Public Expenditure and Reform in respect of the ceilings for their Departments and how they would meet their individual targets. The Minister for Finance set out tax proposals at the other end.

The Committee of Public Accounts report on the possibility of a banking inquiry recognised that the constitutional principle of Cabinet confidentiality must be respected. Obviously, I also believe that.

The Deputy mentioned the Social Welfare Bill. Just two years ago the Deputy was on this side of the House and the Fianna Fáil-led Government took 8% off a swathe of social welfare recipients but did not even let the Deputies go home to engage with their constituents first. It did it before the Dáil broke up.

Photo of Seán Ó FearghaílSeán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That budget was considered fair and progressive, unlike the current Government's budgets.

Photo of James ReillyJames Reilly (Dublin North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It brought the country to its knees.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The pension for the blind was cut twice just a couple of years ago; we do not want to go back there. We are heading into 2013 and the process for the budget for next year will be even more open that it is now. The expenditure review plans have been published, the ceilings for each Department for the next three years are available and we have asked every spokesman to look at those figures. We hope to have a vigorous, open and comprehensive series of discussions during 2013 on the budget for 2014.

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am asking these questions because the initial question asked about the Taoiseach's plans to introduce legislation to deal with the issue of Cabinet confidentiality.

I asked that question because the programme for Government contains that commitment. Cad a tharla leis? What happened to that commitment? If it is not appropriate - the Taoiseach read an extract from the Constitution - why was it in the programme for Government in the first instance?

All Sinn Féin proposals for an alternative budget were sent to the Department of Finance, which costed all of them bar one. The only one it did not cost was the wealth tax - it refused to cost the wealth tax. We offered the wealth tax as an alternative to the family home tax, which the Government is rushing through this Chamber.

There is one big thing to which I have been unable to get an answer. I do not believe the Taoiseach can dodge behind the issue of Cabinet confidentially on this one because it considered taking away the respite care grant, cutting child benefit, making maternity benefit taxable and so on. Was the budget equality-proofed? When the four just men sat in their little Cabinet sub-committee meeting and took all these decisions, and it was brought to the Cabinet, did some of the Ministers not ask whether it had been equality-proofed? Somebody is bound to know. Was the budget equality proofed? The Taoiseach knows the litany of people who are burdened by what his Government is doing. Were these most vulnerable people, who are affected by these scathing cuts, part of the deliberations and was the budget equality-proofed?

4:40 pm

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Deputy has not defined what he means by equality-proofed. In so far as the consideration of the Government was concerned, all of the issues in the budget were considered in the sense of being balanced given the circumstances in which the Government finds itself and we acknowledge the challenge that many people face here. I will not legislate for Cabinet confidentiality. I have looked at this and it is clearly in the Constitution. I have referred to the Howlin judgment about the confidentiality of material transmitted to Members of the House, the consequence of which will be contained in the whistleblower legislation which is under way. The Attorney General was not consulted here. In that sense if I recall from comments made by some of the Sinn Féin Deputies, I believe its costing was done by submission of parliamentary questions as distinct from a formal set of proposals to be costed one after the other by the relevant section of the Department of Finance.

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We needed to get the costing first before making the proposal.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

For years Opposition parties have prepared their alternative budgets and have sent them in their entirety to the section in the Department of Finance which assesses them. Fine Gael did so for years as did the Labour Party. Sinn Féin chose to ask a series of parliamentary questions and then make wild and fanciful comments about everything being rosy in the garden under Sinn Féin, that nobody would have to pay anything because some mythical myriad of millionaires would trump up everything under the Sinn Féin propositions.

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The poor would not have to pay for it.

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What about in Northern Ireland?

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Sinn Féin never faced the difficult choices that are the reality of what Government decisions have to deal with. Nobody likes to announce reductions in benefits. We need to deal with the problem of our national finances and we have tried to do that in as fair and balanced a way as we can.