Dáil debates

Thursday, 13 December 2012

Other Questions

Sheep Grassland Scheme

4:30 pm

Photo of Michael MoynihanMichael Moynihan (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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To ask the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine the number of farmers who successfully applied for the sheep grassland scheme in 2012, broken down by county; the total anticipated savings in the Budget 2013 changes; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [55970/12]

Photo of Simon CoveneySimon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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I mentioned this issue earlier in connection with a matter raised by Deputy Martin Ferris. I would like to explain the decisions taken in last week's budget on the sheep grassland scheme. We had a three year grassland scheme which was costing the country approximately €18 million a year, using unspent funds under Pillar 1. The aim of the scheme and the idea behind it was to increase the number of sheep being farmed in Ireland because for ten years in a row the flock decreased in size year after year. We had to try to reverse that trend. I am delighted to be able to say the scheme has contributed significantly to reversing it and for the first time in a decade, the flock is bigger this year. Therefore, the scheme has worked well.

I now want to try what I know has worked in other sectors, particularly in the dairy sector, in which we have seen the benefit of discussion groups. In the dairy sector dairy farmers meet on a monthly basis in what they might call "dairy discussion groups" to discuss how their business works and how their animals are performing and everything else. The issues discussed include fertility, grazing, feed conversion efficiency, stock management and so on. The evidence we have from the groups is that, on average, farmers who attend them have increased their profit margins by somewhere between 4% and 5%. I want to see the same benefits in the sheep sector. The sheep grassland scheme was due to end this year, but we have chosen to extend it into next year. We will spend €14 million on it next year and use €3 million from the budget to initiate a sheep discussion group model to encourage sheep farmers to enter the type of discussion group setting that has worked so well for the dairy and beef sectors in order that we can help sheep farmers to make more in the market place rather than rely on schemes for an income. This is a progressive measure. It is about using money in the most progressive way we can, given the problems we face.

Photo of Séamus KirkSéamus Kirk (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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Despite the Minister's protestations, the reality is that the budgetary provision for the scheme is going downhill. Once he starts to reduce the funds available-----

Photo of Simon CoveneySimon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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It is not.

Photo of Séamus KirkSéamus Kirk (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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The fund is being reduced from €18 million to €14 million.

Photo of Simon CoveneySimon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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It is going from €18 million to €17 million, when we include the €3 million being transferred for the sheep discussion groups

Photo of Séamus KirkSéamus Kirk (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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I take it there has been an assessment of expenditure under the scheme by the Department. What has been the result of that assessment? Has the expenditure been justified? Obviously, the Minister has decided to change direction. Should there be a continuation of the financial support provided under the original scheme?

Photo of Simon CoveneySimon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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The scheme has been a success on a number of levels. We had seen sheep numbers reduce year on year and were getting to a stage where the perception was developing that a farmer could not make money from sheep farming. We had to put a scheme in place to help farmers to make more money from responsible sheep production and that was the origin of the sheep grassland scheme which was a three year scheme. This was to be the last year of the scheme. We believe it makes sense to continue it but to divert some of the money towards a discussion group model that we know has worked well for other sectors in order that, as well as supporting the income of sheep farmers and the quality of production, we can help upskill them to ensure they are maximising the potential of their holdings and the returns they obtain. That is what discussion groups do.

Although farmers have seen this move as a cut to the sheep grassland scheme, they should instead look at it in the round and realise that while there is a slight reduction in financial support for the scheme, there is a new opportunity for them to sign up to participate in a sheep discussion group through which they will be paid €1,000 a year to attend meetings and participate in discussions that will help them to run a more effective lamb and sheep production business. That is a good use of the money.

Photo of Mick WallaceMick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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On the issue of schemes, I notice the suckler cow welfare scheme has been done away with.

Photo of Simon CoveneySimon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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Is the Deputy trying to get in early?

Photo of Mick WallaceMick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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I realise this is a slightly different issue, but small farmers have contacted me about it. Producing suckler cows has been a way of life for them and even if they do not make money one year, they stay in the business because it is their way of life. The ending of the scheme is a huge blow for many small farmers who have depended on this money. The allowance used to be €80 which was cut to €40 and now it is €20, payable on a maximum of 20 animals. There is significant work involved for the farmers concerned. Last week I spoke to a farmer who had gone through all his records for his animals, including date of birth, date of tagging of cow and calf, the rate of calving, the date of dehorning, the date of castration, date of meal introduction and so on. He needs three bags of meal for just one calf.

Photo of Simon CoveneySimon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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None of that comes under the scheme we are discussing.

Photo of Mick WallaceMick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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The farmer also mentioned he had to feed a calf meal for six weeks before he could part with it. The scheme was a very good one for the industry and made sense. Sadly, its demise will hit small farmers more than big farmers. It is a pity it is going. I, therefore, suggest the Minister should reconsider the matter.

Photo of Peter MathewsPeter Mathews (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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To use a golf analogy, the Deputy is out of bounds on this question. However, the Minister seems to be willing to respond.

Photo of Mick WallaceMick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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We need a flexible Acting Chairman.

Photo of Simon CoveneySimon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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If the Acting Chairman allows, I will be happy to answer the question. There are only the four of us in the Chamber. The media have probably long since gone to bed.

Photo of Peter MathewsPeter Mathews (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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I feel I am in Gurteen to gain an education.

Photo of Simon CoveneySimon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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This is a serious issue. I hope I have answered the questions on sheep farming. I answered questions on the beef sector for Deputy Martin Ferris, but I will respond to Deputy Mick Wallace. I am not targeting the small guys. The new scheme we are putting in place - a €10 million scheme - will ensure farmers with 20 or fewer suckler cows will receive payments on all of them. We made this provision deliberately to ensure smaller farmers would receive their payments first. The bigger farmers, with more than 20 animals, may receive payment on more than 20 animals, if there is money left over as I suspect there will be at the end of the process.

The other aspect is that the new scheme does not requires farmers to do anything other than transfer data relating to the breeding and fertility of their animals to the ICBF. We are not asking them to do all the other things they would have been paid for before. In other words, they are being asked to do a fraction of what they were asked to do before and they are being paid €20 per cow rather than €40 per cow. It is important for the Deputy to understand that the total amount of money going into the beef sector next year will not be very different from what went into the beef sector this year. That is because under the existing suckler cow welfare scheme, at least €10 million is to be paid next year in respect of calves that were born in the second half of this year. When that €10 million is taken with the €10 million we will spend on the new data transfer scheme and the €5 million we will spend on beef discussion groups - farmers will be given €1,000 to attend meetings and learn about how they can run their businesses more effectively - it means we will be spending €25 million on the beef sector next year. Most of that will be spent in the suckler beef sector. We spent approximately €27 million in the beef sector this year. It is important for farmers to get this into context. Since the budget, there has been a blunt focus on arguing that the abolition of the suckler cow welfare scheme is a disaster. I suggest there should be a concentration on what we are putting in place to replace it. The State will be putting almost as much money into the suckler sector next year as it has put into it this year. We are prioritising small farmers in that mix.

Photo of Séamus KirkSéamus Kirk (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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Can the Minister tell us the number of suckler cows in the national herd? What is the position at the moment? What was it in each of the last three years? What is the trend?

Photo of Mick WallaceMick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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I take the Minister's point. I have been listening to a couple of farmers who will be seriously affected by this change. They were getting €80. I know the Minister is saying they will have less work to do now in terms of documentation and registration, etc., but they did not mind doing the work. That is what these small farmers were used to doing. It was a good idea for them to keep records like this. I do not know if they will have to do as much feeding under the new scheme. The level of feeding they had to do under the old scheme made sense. It is pretty draconian for a small farmer to have the payment he gets for each calf reduced from €80 to €20.

Photo of Simon CoveneySimon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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The point is that they are being asked to do a fraction of what they were previously asked to do. I agree that this was a great scheme. It improved the quality of suckler beef in Ireland and brought about significant changes in areas like animal husbandry, data collection and the general performance of those animals. While I would have put a new scheme in place anyway, I would have liked to have had more money to spend on building up the suckler cow welfare scheme. I hope we will be able to spend more money in this area in the future. When the new Common Agricultural Policy is in place, I hope we will be able to fund a larger scheme than the one to be implemented next year. It is important to understand that all of the €25 million being spent in this sector will go to farmers. It may go to different farmers next year. It is important to recognise that contrary to what some farmers have claimed, there will be no dramatic reduction in the money going into this sector, all of which will go to farmers as I have said.

Photo of Peter MathewsPeter Mathews (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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We must finish on that note.

Photo of Simon CoveneySimon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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I will conclude by responding to the point made by Deputy Kirk. Half of the beef in Ireland comes from the suckler herd and the other half comes from the dairy herd. As I have said on many occasions, if we do not support the suckler herd, beef will simply become a by-product of the dairy industry as it expands and grows in the context of the elimination of quotas in 2015. I do not want that to happen because all of the real quality Irish beef comes from the suckler herd. It is delivered by the bloodlines and the breeding. That is why this sector needs additional support. I hope we will be able to provide it in the context of the new Common Agricultural Policy.

Photo of Séamus KirkSéamus Kirk (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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I would like to make a brief point about the scheduling of Question Time, particularly on Thursdays.

Photo of Peter MathewsPeter Mathews (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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We have gone over time.

Photo of Séamus KirkSéamus Kirk (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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I will be brief. The questions we have been discussing this evening relate to what is probably the most important industry in the country. I do not have a problem with being here after 8 p.m. If some of the earlier business had not finished ahead of schedule, however, Question Time would not have started yet. It was not due to start until 8.45 p.m. I assure the Minister that I am not carping when I say that the Whips need to examine the arrangements for the scheduling of the business of the House, particularly on Thursday evenings. I am saying this in the context of agriculture questions, but it applies to other areas as well. We should be able to revert to the traditional afternoon slot for Question Time.

Photo of Simon CoveneySimon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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I assure the Deputy that would have been my preference as well.

Photo of Peter MathewsPeter Mathews (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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It would have been mine too. As I said earlier, at least I got the benefit of a lovely plate of sole. I thank those who posed the questions and the Minister who replied to them. I thank the Clerk and the staff for their attendance.

Written Answers follow Adjournment.

The Dáil adjourned at 8.05 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Friday, 14 December 2012.