Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Three Financial Resolutions are being discussed together. Fianna Fáil supports two of them but opposes one, which means we must vote against all three because the resolutions will be grouped in the vote.

Fianna Fáil opposes Financial Resolution No. 7 on changing the universal social charge for people over the age of 70 years on the basis that it is too timid and does not go far enough. Our budget proposal was to increase the universal social charge for those earning more than €70,000 and increase it even more for those earning more than €100,000. One of the biggest flaws of the budget is that it does not increase taxes for high earners. I know the Government did not want to touch tax rates, but it could have touched the universal social charge. It could have obtained extra revenue from those earning very high salaries and in receipt of very high pensions. It picked on one particular group of elderly persons. I agree that this should be done and support what has been proposed, but I must vote against it because I do not believe it is sufficient. The Government had an opportunity to further increase the universal social charge for persons on much higher incomes and on this basis it is too timid and does not go far enough. It lets high income earners off.

Robert Dowds (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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The Deputy would not have done it if he was in government.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Financial Resolution No. 8 changes the rules on interest rates on benefit-in-kind loans from employers to employees. I hope this is a reflection of the fact that the Minister for Finance expects a reduction in interest rates for other mortgage holders during the coming year. The specified interest rate will be increased from 12.5% to 13.5% for benefit-in-kind loans other than home loans. This will yield the token amount of €1 million. We would not oppose any change in taxation on benefit-in-kind measures.

With regard to Financial Resolution No. 9, last week the House dealt with the new risk equalisation scheme for private health insurance. We all know that the system has changed.

There have been various attempts at that legislation in the past. The new regime is in place. People were getting standard rate tax relief on their health insurance premiums net of the age related equalisation credit. That has now gone and it has been replaced by a new risk equalisation credit under the legislation. The standard rate of tax relief should continue on that basis, and I would support that.

Fianna Fáil supports Financial Resolutions Nos. 8 and 9. We support the contents of Financial Resolution No. 7 but we oppose it on the basis it is far too mild and does not do enough. We oppose Financial Resolution No. 7 on the basis that the Government should have done more on the universal social charge.

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal North East, Sinn Fein)
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I welcome Financial Resolution No. 7. However, it is really disappointing what has happened in this respect in that, clearly, Fine Gael won the battle in the debate in terms of the wealthy paying their fair share.

My party put three proposals to the Government, as the Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade, Deputy Gilmore, will be aware. The first was a 1% tax on assets worth more than €1 million that would have yielded €800 million.

Michael McCarthy (Cork South West, Labour)
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Who costed that? Deputy Mac Lochlainn should table a parliamentary question.

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal North East, Sinn Fein)
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The second was the third rate of tax, at 48%, which would have raised €365 million. The third was the standardising of discretionary tax reliefs that would have raised approximately €969 million. Those were the three options given to the Government.

If the Government wants to dispute what the wealth tax raises, it should apply it in and let us see what it raises. The Government could have tested it and seen how many hundreds of millions it would raise, and not relied on the international benchmark of 0.5% of GDP. This is now the mainstream trend in Europe. In France, Spain and Iceland, there is the issue of a wealth tax. In Germany, the sister party of the heckling Labour Party is considering a wealth tax. This is the challenge. Do we tax wealth or do we tax homes? Unfortunately, it is clear that Fine Gael has won this battle and has put in place this resolution. The resolution is welcome, but it is very disappointing. That is the reality. For my party, it is a half-hearted vote in that respect.

I seek clarification on Financial Resolution No. 8. The Tánaiste describes those concerned as employees. Are those who would benefit from that reduced rate directors or employees of companies? My party would have some concerns. We welcome Financial Resolution No. 9.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Fianna Fáil is a funny party.

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal North East, Sinn Fein)
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It would want a big tin of Brasso for sure.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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I have sympathy with the Government here. Whatever deficiencies there might be in the failure to address the issue of incomes in excess of €100,000, it is not a reason to vote against what is a progressive measure. There are genuine questions about the other two resolutions and I would appreciate explanations. I support this measure because to be hit with this extra level of universal social charge, a person would have had to have earned during his or her working life approximately €120,000 a year and be getting a generous pension of €60,000. The idea that one would be brought up to the same level of universal social charge as somebody who is working and earning that money is reasonable and the measure is at least a move in the direction of wealth redistribution. Although not a reason to vote against it, the measure, if the Government can do so, raises the question of why it cannot raise the income tax level for those earning more than €100,000 a year. I do not understand it.

In response to the Deputies from the Labour Party who were heckling on this matter, whatever dispute there might be about how much can be raised from a wealth tax, we certainly acknowledged in our submission that there is a dispute about it. We do not have accurate figures on wealth and assets and therefore it must be estimates. We accept that fully.

Arthur Spring (Kerry North-West Limerick, Labour)
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The budget must be accurate.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Similarly, it is also true to say that there would have to be some deep scrutiny of how much one would gain from corporation tax, etc., although one would certainly be talking about billions of euro if one enforced the effective 12.5% rate.

On the issue of increasing income taxes for those earning €100,000 or more, there is no dispute about how much it could raise. It merely depends what rates one imposes, and we have the tables. Our proposal was that the effective rates, from €100,000 up to the very top of €8 million to €10 million, inclusive, should go from the current levels of 31.3% to 46% and from to 33% to 62%, respectively, and that would raise €2.5 billion according to the tables.

Seán Sherlock (Cork East, Labour)
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What is the yield?

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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On the yield, one would be taking approximately €1 million a year off somebody who is earning €3 million to €4 million a year. I do not have a difficulty with that.

Seán Sherlock (Cork East, Labour)
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How many of them are there?

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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There are approximately 120 of them, according to tables we received from the Department.

Eamonn Maloney (Dublin South West, Labour)
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What would Deputy Boyd Barrett do the second year?

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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What I do not understand is, if the Government can do what is proposed in this resolution, which is a progressive measure, why could it not have increased to some degree, if not as much as we wished, the income tax for those earning more than €100,000 on some sort of progressive increasing scale?

I have genuine questions for the Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade, Deputy Gilmore. Is there an issue on the loans employees may receive? I have no difficulty with employees getting loans from their companies and being giving some relief to them on that basis, but I ask the Tánaiste in his response to allay my concern that this is a method through which directors and executives could lend to themselves and get tax relief on it. It summons up images of certain families in this country who helped bring the country to its knees who played all sorts of games with their companies and siphoned wealth out of them. I seek assurance that this scheme could not be abused by such people.

The measure on risk equalisation seems reasonable although I would appreciate elaboration on who is likely to be affected by it and how it would translate. I would like to vote for these, but I seek clarification on them. Perhaps the Tánaiste would also answer why, if the Government could implement the measure on pensions in excess of €60,000, it could not do so on earnings in excess of €100,000.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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I call Deputy McCarthy, and then Deputy Kevin Humphreys.

Michael McCarthy (Cork South West, Labour)
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This is a progressive measure. This is one of the measures in this budget that taxes wealth. I cannot reconcile any party which pretends to be or thinks it is left wing which opposes taxation of wealth and-----

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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I stated we would support it.

Michael McCarthy (Cork South West, Labour)
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Let me finish.

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal North East, Sinn Fein)
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Deputy Boyd Barrett stated they would support it. Is Deputy McCarthy speaking of Fianna Fáil?

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy McCarthy has the floor.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The Government is not doing enough.

Michael McCarthy (Cork South West, Labour)
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One hears ideological reasons being put forward in opposition to a measure which are based on economics which, to say the least, do not stand up, because those who support that economic school of thought are amateurs. Not one individual to the left of my party went to the Department of Finance to cost his or her proposals.

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal North East, Sinn Fein)
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We tabled parliamentary questions.

Michael McCarthy (Cork South West, Labour)
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There is too much at stake in this country-----

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Order.

Michael McCarthy (Cork South West, Labour)
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-----to return to the economics of former taoisigh, Mr. Brian Cowen or Mr. Bertie Ahern. This is a game that requires serious politicians with serious figures, not a bunch of amateurs who table parliamentary questions and use the basis of that to pitch party policy.

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal North East, Sinn Fein)
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That is where it is at in the Department of Finance.

Michael McCarthy (Cork South West, Labour)
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It is comical in the extreme.

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal North East, Sinn Fein)
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Deputy McCarthy is likening the Department of Finance to amateurs. That is what he is doing. It is terrible.

Michael McCarthy (Cork South West, Labour)
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The stakes are too high.

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal North East, Sinn Fein)
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Deputy McCarthy should withdraw that comment.

Michael McCarthy (Cork South West, Labour)
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The stakes are so high that when the live wire act is going on, the clowns should stay out of the ring.

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal North East, Sinn Fein)
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He is now calling the Department of Finance officials clowns.

Michael McCarthy (Cork South West, Labour)
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Any reasonably minded left-wing politician should have his or her figures done and should support this measure based on those.

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal North East, Sinn Fein)
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Amateurs and clowns in the Department of Finance. The Minister for Finance, Deputy Noonan, might have to come in to the House make a statement.

Kevin Humphreys (Dublin South East, Labour)
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I support this progressive resolution. I welcome Deputy Boyd Barrett's genuine submission. Fianna Fáil's contribution on the other hand is an absolute joke, saying "Do more", when they were in government for 14 years. It is hilarious.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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We brought in the universal social charge. That is why we are over here.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Kevin Humphreys without interruption.

Kevin Humphreys (Dublin South East, Labour)
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Parliamentary questions do not constitute a budget. A budget has to be assessed in its entirety. Asking questions to elicit answers is not putting forward a budget proposal. What Fianna Fáil and Sinn Féin did was a joke; they formed a budget based on a number of parliamentary questions.

Michael McCarthy (Cork South West, Labour)
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It is hilarious.

Kevin Humphreys (Dublin South East, Labour)
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They did not submit it to the Department of Finance, as every other political party has done going back years. It is a joke and they know it. They are sitting there and are embarrassed by it.

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal North East, Sinn Fein)
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I am embarrassed by Deputy McCarthy referring to Department of Finance officials as clowns and amateurs.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Could we please have some respect for the speaker? I call Deputy Ciarán Lynch.

Ciarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
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In making any negotiations, the starting position is to enter the process or get out of it. During the general election campaign Sinn Féin had an economic policy that meant we would run out of money on 1 July 2011. I thought they would have matured since then and that we would have engaged in a reasonable economic debate in terms of their budgetary proposals. Members of this House have said they have put parliamentary questions to the Department of Finance and it is a fact, but they have done so on a very selective basis. They have not undertaken a comprehensive examination. The only way that can be done on a budgetary proposal is by engaging with the service the Department of Finance facilitates. In answer to a parliamentary question, the Minister for Finance told my colleague, Deputy Arthur Spring, that no Opposition party had availed of that service. That is an irrefutable fact and I challenge anyone on the Opposition benches to deny it. I see Opposition Deputies have become silent.

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal North East, Sinn Fein)
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That is because the Leas-Cheann Comhairle told us to shut up.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Order, please.

Ciarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
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It is amazing. I wish to paraphrase my colleague, Deputy McCarthy, who spoke about the circus. When I was a young lad, when the circus came to town they always rolled out the clowns first and I am glad to see that Deputy MacLochlainn is following in that tradition this evening.

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal North East, Sinn Fein)
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You should do stand-up. You are brilliant. I would pay to see you.

Seán Sherlock (Cork East, Labour)
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We saw him first here.

Ciarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
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One positive outcome of many in this budget is that every opposition party will avail of the service provided by the Department of Finance next year because they were found out this year.

Stephen Donnelly (Wicklow, Independent)
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I would like to respond to that. I have spent a lot of time looking at numbers and analysis. The no-change budget was released by the Department of Finance last Saturday. One cannot put a balanced budget together without that. Therefore the proposal that people on this side of the House can put a budget together and submit it to the Department of Finance - which can come back to say whether or not it will work - is nonsense. The only way one can put a balanced budget together is the way the Department of Finance does it, which is to look at the no-change budget. It is only when one sees the Estimates for 2013, for what would happen with no budget, that one can say "These are the things we are going to do".

Ciarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
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The headline figure was €3.6 billion.

Stephen Donnelly (Wicklow, Independent)
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It was only on Saturday that we found out the gap that had to be closed is €2.5 billion. One cannot put a balanced budget together without that.

Michael McCarthy (Cork South West, Labour)
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You can if you have a party leader's allowance of €80,000.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Donnelly has the floor.

Stephen Donnelly (Wicklow, Independent)
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It cannot be done. The Deputy may not understand. I will explain it to him afterwards; it is not that complicated. It cannot be done.

Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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I do not know how we managed before Deputy Donnelly came in here.

Stephen Donnelly (Wicklow, Independent)
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I will tell the Deputy what he has been doing - he has been submitting nonsense.

Michael McCarthy (Cork South West, Labour)
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The Deputy was not even elected to a county council before coming in here.

Stephen Donnelly (Wicklow, Independent)
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It cannot be done without a no-change budget. The notion that the Deputy would not understand that after the amount of time he has spent in here absolutely baffles me.

Ciarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
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Deputy Donnelly has become a populist.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Please calm down. Deputy Donnelly has just a few minutes left.

Stephen Donnelly (Wicklow, Independent)
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If the Government wants Members of the Opposition to submit proposals based on what would happen if nothing changed, and then they put in a budget to say that these are the things they would change, one has to have a no-change budget. Under the EU directives, we will have to submit no-change budgets to the EU in November because - contrary to the heckling - that is what their analysts need in order to examine the budget.

Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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The Deputy should address the motion instead of lecturing us. Smart Alec.

Stephen Donnelly (Wicklow, Independent)
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Next year, the Tánaiste might consider releasing the no-change budget three months in advance, as is standard practice all over the world.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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I call on the Tánaiste to reply and can we please have silence from other Deputies?

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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I do not know what we did at all before Deputy Donnelly was elected.

Stephen Donnelly (Wicklow, Independent)
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You destroyed the country.

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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No, not us. The Deputy is wrong about that. The people who destroyed the country are sitting a lot closer to him. They destroyed the country because they pursued an economic policy which is closer to what Deputy Donnelly has been advocating than what we have advocated.

Stephen Donnelly (Wicklow, Independent)
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You tried to outbid them in every budget.

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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Let us deal first with the issue of preparing alternative budgets. I and my colleagues spent 14 years in opposition from the time of the defeat of the then rainbow Government in 1997 until our re-election to Government in 2011. In that 14 years we prepared, each year, alternative budget proposals. We did so seriously. We went to the Department of Finance and asked it to cost various options. We did not do it on the back of an envelope based on replies to parliamentary questions. There is a facility which has been available for many years in the Department of Finance whereby Opposition parties' budgetary proposals are examined and costed. The departmental officials will give advice and say what one can or cannot do. Interestingly, and quite rightly so, when in opposition we were repeatedly asked by the media about our budget proposals. They scrutinised them and examined the money to see if it stacked up. It beggars belief that none of the Opposition parties, and none of the Opposition Independents it would appear, went into the Department of Finance to do any kind of serious examination of their budget proposals in advance of this budget.

Stephen Donnelly (Wicklow, Independent)
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I met them several times.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Please, Deputy.

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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That is confirmed in reply to a parliamentary question tabled by Deputy Spring last week. Coming in here at this late hour and offering us very erudite reasons why it could not be done and why one could only do it from last Saturday is a load of old nonsense. The fact of the matter is that none of the Opposition parties took the job of Opposition seriously enough to do a serious job of preparing proposals and having them properly costed.

Stephen Donnelly (Wicklow, Independent)
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Rubbish.

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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I regret that because it has also diminished the quality of the budget debate today. It means, for example, that Sinn Féin announced that it could raise €800 million through a wealth tax. However, somebody spotted that they announced the same last year and proposed that it would include pensions. It does not apparently include pensions this year, but the figure is still €800 million. Yet we have no explanation as to how it is done with pensions one year and without them the next.

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal North East, Sinn Fein)
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The Tánaiste is bluffing and blustering. He is only fooling himself and his choir.

Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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It also explains why we get proposals from Deputy Boyd Barrett who seems to think that the entire €3.5 billion budgetary adjustment can be made up by planting some additional taxes on multinational companies. Of course, it fits the kind of juvenile approach that Deputy Boyd Barrett has to politics and to economic proposals.

Multinationals are bad. They are big, bad capitalist entities and if one could only get more tax from them, it would solve all our problems. Such analysis is without any regard to what would be the impact on investment and on job creation in this country. It is daft. I acknowledge that some Members, including Deputies Sean Fleming and Deputy Catherine Murphy at an earlier point made reasonable contributions, as did Deputy Ó Cuív.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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The establishment closes ranks.

Michael McCarthy (Cork South West, Labour)
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Is Deputy Catherine Murphy now a member of the establishment?

Stephen Donnelly (Wicklow, Independent)
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Where is the Government's poverty impact assessment?

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal North East, Sinn Fein)
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What an absolute bluffer.

Stephen Donnelly (Wicklow, Independent)
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The Tánaiste has nothing. Where is the Government's poverty impact assessment?

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Please.

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal North East, Sinn Fein)
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Why is the Tánaiste raising his voice?

Stephen Donnelly (Wicklow, Independent)
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The Government does not have one, does it?

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Please now, we are almost out of time.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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As the time allowed for the debate has expired, I must put the question in accordance with the order of the Dáil of this day.

Ruairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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I move the following Financial Resolutions: