Billy Kelleher (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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Last night we saw the most moving, emotional testimony that a person could witness, that of Mr. Praveen Halappanavar talking about his late wife Savita's life and tragic death. It was truly harrowing. He also spoke of his concerns about an independent inquiry the Government is proposing. The Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade, Deputy Gilmore, met the Indian ambassador and the Irish ambassador met the Indian Government, yet nobody from the Government has met Mr. Halappanavar. The Government could be in open conflict with the late Mrs. Halappanavar's family in a court of law to try to access or attain medical records so that it can go on with an inquiry or investigation that nobody wants or has any confidence in. How can the Government continue with this investigation? The family do not want it and at this stage some of the Minister, Deputy Joan Burton's colleagues do not want it, while the President has told the Government it is clearly wrong.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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We should not engage the President in this discussion.

Billy Kelleher (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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I do not intend to engage the President. I am merely quoting what has been stated.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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We should not.

Billy Kelleher (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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The President is reflecting the views of the Irish people.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Does Deputy Kelleher understand the Constitution?

Billy Kelleher (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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The President stated that his wish-----

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Kelleher should respect the constitutional position of the President.

Billy Kelleher (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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A Cheann Comhairle-----

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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I thank Deputy Kelleher.

Billy Kelleher (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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-----he is merely reflecting the views of the Irish people and I am saying that the Government should listen.

I call on the Taoiseach to intervene personally and meet Mr. Halappanavar to find out exactly what investigation would satisfy his concerns and those of his family. Everybody in this House wants to get to the truth of the matter, everybody wants to find out what happened and what can be done to avoid such similar circumstances in the future but, quite clearly, nobody has confidence in this investigation. I ask that the Taoiseach would intervene and sit down, discuss and come to an accommodation so that Parliament is not seen to be in conflict with a man who has lost his wife and who we could be dragging through the courts to access or attain her medical records. It is unseemly and unbelievable that at this stage we are still talking about this tragic issue. How much more must this family endure to try to come to the truth of what happened his late wife in Galway? The Minister should ask the Taoiseach to intervene in a personal human way, without the cameras and microphones, and sit down and try to find an accommodation with which everybody can be satisfied.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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First, I read and heard the comments made by Uachtarán na hÉireann. They were considerate, thoughtful-----

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Sorry, Minister.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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-----reflective and humane.

Michael Healy-Rae (Kerry South, Independent)
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The rules on this side are the same as the rules on that side.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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The Tánaiste is not happy.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Under Article 13.8.1° of the Constitution, the President is not answerable to the Dáil, and the Minister should respect that.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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The spokesperson raised the issue.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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I am correcting that.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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That is all I wish to say about the President's comment.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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The Minister's leader is not happy.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Anybody who heard Mr. Halappanavar speaking or being interviewed on television last night could not fail to be moved by what must be the immensity of his grief, shock and trauma at what happened to his late wife. Anyone who has sat beside a loved one as that person dies would know that the kind of experience he has had must be tremendously difficult for him. That is why the thoughts of everybody in Ireland, from the first citizen to every other citizen, are with him and with his family and friends in Ireland and in India.

The HSE is responsible for appropriate inquiry when deaths occur in hospital which require investigation. With reference to records of the HSE to which Deputy Kelleher referred, the HSE, like any institution or hospital, is legally responsible for the proper maintenance of records. Mr. Halappanavar's legal adviser has expressed views in that regard but Deputy Kelleher, as a health spokesperson, will be aware that the HSE also has responsibilities in relation to records.

Let us cut to the net point. This is about the safety and care of women so that this episode or some tragic happening like this does not occur again. It is about the care, protection and safety of women when in hospital in relation to childbirth and pregnancy. It is the duty of the HSE to find out in the case of that hospital if there were unsafe practices and, if so, that those practices are amended or strengthened so that women going into that or any other hospital in this country can be assured their safety and care is the primary consideration and that structures are in place in that regard.

I welcome Deputy Kelleher's suggestion that this should not take place in a controversial adversarial mode. Given the grief of the late Mrs. Halappanavar's husband, which is so understandable to everybody, nobody wants to add any additional pressure or stress. It is important that he understands that is the view of everybody in this House.

The chairman of the inquiry, Professor Sabaratnam Arulkumaran, is an internationally renowned expert. He is entirely independent. The other members of the inquiry team are also nationally and internationally renowned. From the point of view of women's safety, it is important to establish what happened and that, if hospitals in Ireland need to move immediately to make appropriate provision in relation to securing the safety and well-being of women, it should be done. That is the most important issue as well as tending as best we can as a country to the grief of Savita Halappanavar's husband and family.

Billy Kelleher (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Government has obligations and duties as well. The HSE can look after itself in terms of its own inquiry. Quite clearly, however, the family of Savita are not going to co-operate with a HSE investigation so we are going to have open conflict. Huge difficulties will be placed on this family in trying to get to the truth of what happened to Savita in Galway.

We do not want to raise this matter in a political or adversarial way, but we certainly do not want the State to act in an adversarial way with the bereaved family, although that is clearly what will happen. I am asking the Taoiseach to make a personal intervention behind the scenes and meet with Praveen Halappanavar, the family and legal representatives, to find some way of addressing the concerns in a meaningful way that will establish the truth and will also satisfy the family about its independence. A commission of inquiry could be that way. The HSE will carry out its own investigation anyway with regard to its internal workings but we want to try to establish a commission that will satisfy everybody. Clearly, the Minister's response will not satisfy Praveen Halappanavar's family or the broader Irish public. I am urging the Minister one last time to have behind the scenes discussions with Praveen and the family to try to find a mechanism to deal with this. Our suggestion is for a commission of inquiry, which will not prejudice the outcome of anything. The Taoiseach is quite entitled to, and should, meet Praveen and the family to discuss their concerns. In fact, it should have happened already.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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Yes. Hear, hear.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Every effort will be made by the Government to do everything we can to support Savita's husband in his understandable and deep grief. We heard him speak last night. I do not think anybody who heard him speak could fail to be moved by what he said. The Deputy acknowledged himself, however, that the hospital and the HSE must know what happened in order that they can ensure immediately there are no further risks to the lives of women in hospital. As well as supporting her grieving family, that is also something that is owed to the women of Ireland and they want it. The Deputy may disagree but for the safety of women in hospital during pregnancy, delivery and in the unfortunate event of a miscarriage, which happens at an early stage in a high proportion of pregnancies, it is most important we give reassurance to the women of Ireland, as well as their families, friends and partners, that they are as safe as possible in our hospitals. That is one of the focuses of what the Government is doing, as well as assisting the family and husband of Savita as well as we can. All options are open.

The Deputy is speaking about a commission of inquiry but can I caution that this Chamber should not rush down the legal adversarial road at this point. When Mr. Justice Michael Moriarty first started work on his tribunal, he said it would be finished within 12 months. In fact, it took almost 13 years.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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An inquiry is a different thing altogether.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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On numerous occasions - both when the Deputy's party was in government and since this Government was formed - we have also had ministerial inquiries. If the Deputy wants to go the road of a full tribunal he is really talking-----

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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We never said that.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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I am sorry but we are over time, Minister. This is Leaders' Questions.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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The Deputy referred to a commission of inquiry.

Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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That is a separate question to muddy the waters.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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We need to focus on the safety and welfare of women.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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It is the 2004 Act - a different thing altogether.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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In that context anybody who is responsible for running an institution like a hospital, has a responsibility to find out as quickly as possible, if only on health and safety grounds, if something needs to be done or amended to increase the safety and protection of women who are in delivery, have gone into hospital in the context of a miscarriage or who are otherwise being cared for in the context of pregnancy.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Members should understand that there is a time limit. I am obliged to ask Members to adhere to that time limit.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The Minister's reference to the Moriarty tribunal is hardly an appropriate analogy. People across Ireland and, no doubt by now, across the world have been moved by the calm, dignified yet powerful testimony of Praveen Halappanavar on the "Prime Time" programme last night. He told us directly of the terrible ordeal to which his wife Savita had been subjected. It was an ordeal - make no mistake about it - that no other woman should ever have to face on these shores. Despite all that he has been through, he still told us he loved Ireland. Above all, he made it very clear that he and his family have no confidence in a HSE inquiry. We need to listen to what he has told us and we need to be very clear about this.

What efforts were employed by the Minister for Health, his Department, the HSE or An Taoiseach to make direct contact with Praveen Halappanavar prior to the announcement of the inquiry or since? I attended the Committee on Health and Children on Tuesday when the director designate of the HSE, Mr. Tony O'Brien, appealed to the media present to use their good offices to inform Mr. Halappanavar that he would welcome contact from him. This is totally inappropriate. Yesterday, the Taoiseach used the opportunity here in the Dáil Chamber to communicate with Praveen and his family. I would like to know if any serious efforts have been employed and if any offer has been extended for An Taoiseach to meet Praveen Halappanavar directly. I believe that should happen and I have urged that in the course of today's "Morning Ireland" programme.

Will this effort now be undertaken by the Government? Will An Taoiseach make that direct approach to Mr. Halappanavar and sit down with him to address the issues concerned? Will the Government accept that we are in an impossible situation here if this inquiry is to have any credibility and is to be able to carry out its functions? Part of its functions must be to restore public confidence and, above all, the confidence of the women of Ireland. I urge that a full independent inquiry be undertaken.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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There are two important issues here. The first is whatever comfort and support this State and the Government can offer to Mr. Halappanavar and his family. The second is his dignity, his willingness to speak despite his appalling grief, the way he expressed himself and his courteous references to Ireland and Irish institutions.

He is to be commended on all that and he appears to be a deeply courteous man. In fairness, when news of this was first broadcast in the media, there was an expression that communication was to be via his legal adviser, who has conducted a number of interviews setting out the position in respect of his client. I assure the Deputy that every effort and every appropriate response will be made by the Government in respect of any way in which Mr. Halappanavar and his family can be supported. However, as I believe the Deputy will agree, when a death occurs in a hospital that requires investigation and inquiry, the reason such an inquiry takes place is from a health and safety perspective to ensure that no unsafe practices have occurred that would put further patients at risk. This is the general approach in this matter. Taking into account the sensitivities of the matter, not simply for the family and husband of the bereaved, but for many people in this country, particularly women, the Government appointed an internationally renowned expert and a panel of experts. In addition, I note the statement from the former and much renowned Master of the National Maternity Hospital, Holles Street, Dr. Boylan, supporting an inquiry which would be held expeditiously and quickly. My understanding is the ambition for the inquiry that is under way is that it would be completed on a preliminary basis before Christmas.

At this point, I would exercise caution about entering a longer vista. There are provisions for ministerial inquiries. This has happened under previous Governments and already has happened under the current Administration. However, with regard to the health and safety aspects of the management of hospitals, it is my sincere view that one needs to find out quite quickly, to ensure there is no endangerment of any woman or her child arising from practices in our maternity hospitals. Incidentally, this does not preclude further detailed inquiries but in respect of hospital incidents, I believe establishing the facts and the health and safety considerations as quickly as possible to be paramount. In addition to seeking to do this, the Government has appointed renowned independent experts to carry out this particular inquiry as expeditiously as possible. It does not rule out anything else.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Thank you, Minister.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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The Deputy should remember the issue here concerns a healthy young woman who unfortunately was miscarrying an early-term baby and who went into hospital. From what one reads in the media, all the indications are that she was miscarrying and medicine could not stop the miscarriage. These appear to be the indications and of course in Irish hospitals-----

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Thank you.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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-----the staff would move to prevent, if possible, the miscarriage in order that the baby could be carried successfully to term. The normal practice, as I and most women would understand it-----

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Thank you, Minister.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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-----is that at a certain point there would be a dilation and curettage, D and C, procedure. Incidentally, the reason for that-----

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Minister, you are way over time. Please co-operate with the Chair. Thank you.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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-----would be that the family would be able to go on to have further children. It is important from a health and safety point of view that we have an answer and get an explanation as expeditiously as possible as to what happened, in order that women are not further endangered in any way. The women of Ireland, as well as the Halappanavar family, are owed both that explanation and the aforementioned check on safety as quickly as possible.

Deputies:

Hear, hear.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Ó Caoláin has one minute.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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How can the Minister stand up in this Chamber this morning and claim it was and is the Government's intention to act expeditiously? That assertion holds no water. But for the fact that Praveen Halappanavar took the decision, approximately two weeks after this terrible tragedy, to go public with this terrible story he has been obliged to share and because no efforts were being employed by the HSE or the authorities regarding the tragic death of his wife, one must state it is reasonable for people to question whether any kind of serious inquiry would ever have been undertaken otherwise. This constitutes an indictment of the system-----

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Thank you. A question please.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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-----the HSE, the Department and the Government. The Minister should make no mistake about it; there is no possible credibility for the inquiry currently constituted. This is not to question the capacity, suitability or otherwise of those now named to participate.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Can we have a question please? Thank you.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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It is to recognise that without Praveen Halappanavar's co-operation and perhaps approval for access to all the critical file notes in respect of his wife's tragic experience, this particular inquiry will have no future.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Can the Deputy ask a supplementary question please?

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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As I asked her earlier, will the Minister use her good offices to make an impact on the Taoiseach in order that he will appreciate the importance of direct contact with Mr. Halappanavar? This now is essential, no matter what is to happen subsequently.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Thank you.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Moreover, there undoubtedly is a huge demand, which is not confined to the voices of the Opposition for a public-----

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Will the Deputy please ask a question? He is way over time.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I do not have that hand which the Minister was able to employ several times a moment ago and I wish to finish my sentence.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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Hear, hear.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Sorry, the rules apply to everyone equally and I ask for the Deputy's co-operation.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Will the Minister also take on board the demands of both Opposition and Government voices for a full independent inquiry into this terrible event? That is in the interest only of truth and justice.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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Hear, hear.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Minister has one minute in which to reply.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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In response to the Deputy, I do not believe the adversarial tone is appropriate.

Deputies:

Hear, hear.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I have doubts that the Deputy's suggestion that this should be a full independent commission of inquiry, with a heavy input of lawyers on all sides, is exactly what this country needs at this point. I remind him that when Mr. Justice Moriarty entered in good faith into his inquiry-----

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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That was a tribunal of inquiry.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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-----he stated it would take place within 12 months.

Billy Kelleher (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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That is a ridiculous comparison.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister is being deliberately misleading.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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The Minister is taking a scatter-gun approach.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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The Government has moved in this regard. The important issue here is women's health, not politics. I hope the Deputy will accept that I and other women have a direct interest in this and that I say what I do out of personal conviction that there are young women going into hospital today, this week and next week and I want to know they are safe-----

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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We all want to know that.

Sandra McLellan (Cork East, Sinn Fein)
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Sooner rather than later.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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-----and that what has happened will not happen again.

Deputies:

Hear, hear.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Thank you.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I acknowledge the Deputy's interest in this regard. Mr. Halappanavar took the very brave decision to go public and it is as a consequence of that decision that we know what we know now. He is to be congratulated for doing that.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Thank you, Minister.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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However, it must now be established, as quickly as possible, whether there are procedures in that hospital that in any way endanger the life and the health of women. We need to know that and I put it to the Deputy that we need to know this as expeditiously as possible for the women of Ireland.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
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Last week, in reply to a question I put to him in this Chamber, the Taoiseach graciously agreed there was a case for judges making declarations of their interests. This was in response to a judge having recused himself from a case when he held shares in CRH plc. Judges are in the spotlight at present and I wish to ask the Minister a question.

This week a judge from the District Court was convicted of a serious offence for the first time in the history of the State. I will not comment specifically on the case except to ask that in the light of the fact that the Judiciary is being proved to be accident-prone and no judge has ever been impeached by the Houses of the Oireachtas - it is almost impossible to dismiss a judge in this country - will the Minister answer the following question? What procedures are in place to ensure judges, especially those of the District Court, are properly vetted before they get those jobs? It is quite obvious the most important qualification is political influence or colour. Apart from the judicial appointments advisory board, are judges subject to interview or questions? Do they need any qualifications apart from a basic legal qualification? It is important we avoid the sort of incident that has happened in the case I outlined and we must take precautions to ensure judges have a past which qualifies them for the job and are not simply qualified politically.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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They have to be card-carrying members of a party.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I may be advised by the Ceann Comhairle in the context of the case that is before the courts.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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I would not go there.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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It would be extremely unwise for me to comment in any way on the circumstances referred to by the Deputy.

Colm Keaveney (Galway East, Labour)
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Hear, hear.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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The matter is before the courts. This House may have certain legal responsibilities in areas and it would be extremely unwise for me to comment. I understand with regard to the question of judges' interests that the Taoiseach in a previous reply undertook to have a conversation with the Minister for Justice and Equality.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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That is if he can find the Minister.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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There are various proposals before the Minister regarding the organisation of the courts and the regulation of judicial matters. There is, rightly, a separation between this House and the Judiciary and it would be unwise of me to comment in any detail on-----

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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Labour Party judges.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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-----the court case referred to by the Deputy.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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What about the Labour judges?

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
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That is utterly ridiculous. I am not asking for a comment and I specifically indicated I did not want a comment on that court case.

John Lyons (Dublin North West, Labour)
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Why did the Deputy raise the matter?

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
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I am asking how District Court judges are vetted before they get the job.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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Party membership.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
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It seems the refusal of the Government to answer the question means that the old political jobbery-----

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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It is party membership.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy would not qualify so.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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They must be a member of the Labour Party.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
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I do not wish to tread into territory that is delicate and I have deliberately avoided it. I have asked how these people are vetted. I will answer some of the question myself. They do not have to be interviewed or answer specific questions and it is an advantage to have political affiliations.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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Yes.

John Halligan (Waterford, Independent)
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That is the answer.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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We are straying into dangerous territory.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
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Will the Minister give us an assurance-----

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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I am trying to provide some guidance for the Deputy. We are straying into a difficult area and there are strict rules around discussing the Judiciary. In my opinion the Deputy is entitled to ask how people are appointed but we cannot imply any wrongdoing.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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No, we would not do that.

John Halligan (Waterford, Independent)
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He did not say there was wrongdoing.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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There is a Standing Order dealing with impeachment if the Deputy wishes to check it.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
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I am simply asking that as a Minister in a reforming Government, Deputy Burton will give an assurance that the Labour Party, at least, is committed to removing the naked appointment of judges from the political arena.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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Hear, hear.

John Halligan (Waterford, Independent)
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It is a very good question.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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We do not need a chorus.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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Everything should be cleaned out.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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The Deputy is well aware that there is an application-----

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy would love that responsibility.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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-----and appointments process for members of the Judiciary at any level. There are certain conditions relating to qualifications and experience of those persons who apply to be considered for judicial application. In the context of the court case referred to by the Deputy, it would be deeply unwise at this point to have a discussion of the matter.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Hear, hear.

John Halligan (Waterford, Independent)
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Deputy Ross twice made it clear he was not looking for that.

Michael Healy-Rae (Kerry South, Independent)
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He does not want it.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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It may be appropriate at a later stage, when court proceedings have been completed. I would strongly suggest we should not discuss this or related matters at this point.