Dáil debates

Tuesday, 13 November 2012

Education Funding: Motion [Private Members]

 

7:40 pm

Photo of Michael KittMichael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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I call Deputy Charlie McConalogue who I understand is sharing time with Deputies Micheál Martin, Robert Troy and Barry Cowen.

Photo of Charlie McConalogueCharlie McConalogue (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
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I move:

That Dáil Éireann:

agrees that:- the new Student Universal Support Ireland central on-line system for processing student grants is failing abysmally to meet what is required for over 65,000 applications and this is causing undue hardship for third-level students awaiting payments; and

- sufficient extra staffing should be supplied immediately to correct this on-going problem so that student grants can be issued by Christmas;recognises that third-level students are facing year-on-year increases in their registration fees which are unfair and unjust in light of a promised reduction in these fees; and

calls on the Government to:- refrain from further cuts to the education budget and increases in third-level registration fees;

- ensure that all children who require Special Needs Assistants are provided with them;

- reinstate the Career Guidance Teacher provision; and

- preserve funding to Delivering Equality of Opportunity in Schools programme schools.
This motion aims to ensure that the Government moves immediately to address the growing crisis it has overseen in the administration of student grants. It also asks that the Government keeps the solemn promises it made to students in return for their votes in the midst of the general election campaign and seeks to get the agreement of the Dáil to protect the resourcing of education in the upcoming budget in recognition of the fact that young people in Ireland are entitled to an education and that education should be a key platform on which we build a successful country.

Much progress has been made in education in recent years but we must build on that. In the past decade we witnessed a transformation in the provision of education to children and young people with special needs. From a very small base at the end of the 1990s steady progress has ensured the employment of 10,000 special needs assistants catering for the care needs of children who require their help. There are now approximately 9,600 learning support and resource teachers in our primary and post-primary schools providing essential teaching support to pupils with special educational needs.

We have seen significant strides taken in ensuring our young people complete second level education. That is evidenced by the publication last week of a report by the Department of Education and Skills showing that 90% of students beginning secondary school in 2005-06 went on to complete their education to leaving certificate level in 2010-11. That is an increase of 9% compared to 11 years previously. Much of that progress was greatly assisted by the investment in our DEIS schools where the school retention rate increased significantly from 68% to 80%.

At third level, Ireland has moved rapidly up the ranks of OECD countries in terms of the higher education attainment levels of its adult population, with one third of adults now qualified to higher education level. We must ensure that progress continues to be built upon. That will take strong resolve and clear prioritisation of the education budget and ensuring that we continue to fund education properly. That will not come easily, but it is something we must do.

While many of the challenges facing us will take real effort to achieve, something that should have been entirely manageable was ensuring that those students at third level who were eligible for a maintenance grant got paid it on time. As that was so manageable with the right effort, it is a scandal that we are here tonight discussing this issue with over 45,000 students of the 66,000 who applied still waiting to hear whether they will qualify for a maintenance grant let alone be paid their first instalment.

This crisis has been growing for many weeks but despite the continuing hardship being experienced by students awaiting their grant, the Minister, Deputy Quinn, has inexcusably refused to take control of a project which is his responsibility to deliver. He had no problem stepping up to the podium in early June to announce the creation of Student Universal Support Ireland, SUSI. He said at that time that the process is quick and easy and that many students had to wait lengthy periods for their grants in the past and face undue hardship as a result of those delays. He said that this new system would erase those delays. He boasted how 65 staff would now do the work previously carried out by the 66 local authorities, 33 vocational education committees and 33 county councils, and how it was a prime example of real public service reform.

At the start of June SUSI was definitely and proudly the political baby of the Minister, Deputy Quinn, but how things have changed. Today, the Minister is scrambling to put the blame for the failure of SUSI on anyone but himself. Once the initial public relations glow disappeared the Minister, Deputy Quinn, no longer had an interest. As a result of the way this crisis has grown recently, the Oireachtas education committee invited representatives of SUSI to come before it today to examine the situation and how we can get out of it. As part of that I put the question to the chief executive officer of the vocational education committee as to the number of times the Minister had met personally with SUSI to discuss this situation but the CEO was not in a position to confirm to me that she had sat down with the Minister on this issue in the months since SUSI was established and this problem has been growing.

The staff and management of SUSI confirmed to us in committee that as of today, 13 November, only 3,010 students of the 66,000 who have applied for a grant - less than 5% - have been paid their grant. They also confirmed that only 20,000 of that 66,000 have had their applications processed to final stage whereby a decision has been made, and almost half of those have been refused whereas approximately 10,000 have had an indication that they will be awarded a grant. Of the remainder, with six weeks to go to Christmas, over 40,000 students who applied to SUSI either have got correspondence from it asking for further documentation or in the case of half of that 40,000 their applications have not even been checked by SUSI to determine if it has all the documentation.

What did the Minister have to say about that? This morning on "Morning Ireland" he stated that he was not entirely sure why there was a delay. This is the Minister's project to deliver. Real reform is not just about standing up on the podium and making a grand announcement. It is about taking responsibility for it and making sure it happens. The Minister should have sat down with SUSI, which the Minister appointed to do this job and which was obviously getting it wrong, long ago to examine where things were going wrong and to ensure the thousands of students across the country who are waiting on their grant and who are struggling, along with their families, got paid. Only 3,010 of the 66,000 have been paid their grant and they are struggling. They have instalments to meet in regard to their student accommodation. They have not been able to register properly in college. In recent weeks many of them had little more than visitor rights in the colleges they attend. They are still photocopying books because they do not have full loan rights in libraries. They are now facing into their Christmas examinations without having been able to register fully at college.

The Minister has washed his hands of that. Instead of taking control he first tried to avoid the issue until he could avoid it no more and it became such a crisis that he had to comment on it. What did he then do? All of a sudden SUSI was no longer the Minister's responsibility; it was somebody else's responsibility. He pointed the finger at City of Dublin VEC and blamed it entirely, washing his hands of it even to the extent that he stated this morning he was not sure what was going on.

Unfortunately, what we found out in committee today from the SUSI representatives was that despite having taken on additional staff it is almost impossible to work out a strategy or a pathway as to how the students currently waiting on their maintenance grant will be paid.

The Minister and the Taoiseach claim these students will somehow be paid by Christmas. If the Minister teased out the issue as the education committee did today, he would ask how we can process these claims when half the 40,000 students in question have not had their packs checked while the system is still awaiting documentation from the other half. We also found out today that since it was established, Student Universal Support Ireland, SUSI, has handled 175,000 telephone calls for 66,000 applications. This works out at three calls per application on average. SUSI has 92 staff, 65 staff of its own and 27 from an outsourced agency responsible for scanning the documents. The volume of phone calls with that number of staff works out at 2,000 calls per member of staff. If the Minister had to field that number of calls, how would he manage to do any work at all?

This is the type of crisis that has been under way in SUSI while the Minister has paid it no attention. I hope in this debate the Minister will finally take responsibility for this. Has he met SUSI in recent weeks to take control of this issue and examine it the way the education committee did today? I presume he would have arranged to meet the agency representatives when they were in Leinster House today. It is long past when that should have happened. It at least needs to happen now.

How will the Minister ensure those students who need their grant payments will get them between now and Christmas? From looking in great detail at the way SUSI has operated, it seems it does not have a pathway to ensure these students will be paid by Christmas. If the Minister also examined it in detail, he would see that too. Political responsibility needs to be taken and the Minister must ensure additional measures are taken in order that students will be paid. Up until now targets have not been met. Why should we believe the aspirations expressed today will be met? It is the Minister’s responsibility to assess and make a judgment on this. If he believes payments will not be made between now and Christmas, which I believe is the case, he must ensure additional measures will be taken.

SUSI is only processing first-time applicants while county council and vocational education committee staff process existing students. The latter are almost finished those applications. There is a real opportunity to engage those staff on a once-off basis to get assistance in dealing with SUSI’s backlog and ensure students do not have to suffer any longer. However, the Minister has not yet taken the responsibility or the initiative which would see proper control taken of the situation. Coming out of this, I hope we will see a plan from the Minister.

It is unfortunate this is the first time the Minister has discussed this matter in the Chamber. The first and only time I ever heard the Minister comment on it was on "Morning Ireland" last week when he could not avoid commenting on it anymore.

7:50 pm

Photo of Ruairi QuinnRuairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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I commented on it this morning.

Photo of Charlie McConalogueCharlie McConalogue (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
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That was the Minister’s second comment on this matter.

Photo of Robert TroyRobert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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That is nothing of which to be proud.

Photo of Charlie McConalogueCharlie McConalogue (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
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We do not need the Minister absolving himself of responsibility in this matter.

Our motion refers to promises made by the Minister to students when in opposition and in the midst of an election campaign. These are similar promises he made on delivering an efficient grants system. The Minister promised he would not increase the student registration fee and, instead, would reduce it from €2,000 to €1,500. Since he was elected, the Minister has brazenly done a U-turn on this. Not even being sorry about it, he then said he feels bad about it but that is the way it is. He had no such problem two weeks before election day when he put pen to paper to sign a pledge not to introduce fees. As a former Minister for Finance, he should have been well able to do the figures and know such a pledge was not possible given the economic situation. It is time we saw a different approach from the Minister, one that is not about grand stunts and big announcements but one about taking responsibility for his decisions, delivering on his commitments and the reforms he was going to introduce. There are 50,000 students and their families suffering because of the Minister’s approach to this issue and his job. I hope in this debate he will ensure they can see some light at the end of the tunnel and have their financial worries assuaged in the coming weeks before Christmas.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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During the 20 months the Government has been in office it has consistently sought to avoid responsibility for its own decisions. It has put out a never-ending stream of press releases praising its members as visionaries who are setting everything right. This has been accompanied by a constant effort to diminish, ignore and then deny flat-out the clear evidence of bad decisions and policies. Over recent months, the growing and avoidable crisis which decisions in the health sector are causing has been obvious to everyone. Even within the Cabinet trust has broken down to the extent that the Tánaiste is having the work of a Minister checked independently.

The impact of Government decisions on the education sector has not received anywhere near the same attention but this impact is real and growing all the time. Last year, the Government announced proudly that education had not only been given priority but all front-line education services had been protected. The truth was exactly the opposite. No priority was given to education and cuts were specifically targeted at front-line services. The result is obvious to anyone who cares to look at what is happening at every level of the education system. It is not just that belts are being tightened. Deliberate policy decisions are making the system less fair, more exclusive and building problems which will cause lasting damage if left in place.

No doubt we will hear shortly from Government speakers about how nothing is their fault and everything has been forced on them by a combination of the troika and their predecessors. They should be warned these speeches, always empty, are now causing the Government's support to fall every time they are used in place of seriously addressing very real problems. The public can see through the arguments because it can remember the promises made early last year when every last bit of economic data was available to Fine Gael and Labour. The public can remember the signed pledges and the ringing commitment in the programme for Government that fairness and front-line services in education would be protected. The public hears and understands the repeated statements of the troika that individual spending decisions are fully at the discretion of the Government. These are the Government’s promises. No one forced it to make them and no one forced it to break them.

During the election when the Minister for Education and Skills, Deputy Quinn, attended a photo opportunity outside Trinity College Dublin and gave his and Labour's solemn commitment not to increase charges at third level, he knew the fiscal situation. The only thing which has changed since then is that the Ministers for Finance and Public Expenditure and Reform say things are actually better than planned. The Minister’s election pledge was no solo run by an over-eager campaign manager. It was reinforced by the Tánaiste himself when he said on 19 February 2011: "Labour is opposed to third level fees by either the front door or back door."

In this debate we will clearly not hear anything new from the Minister about his cynically made and quickly abandoned promise. The nature of that promise, its raison d'être and the manner in which it was carried out was sickening and a new threshold in cynicism. It is well past time for the Minister to acknowledge what has been done. The increases in fees which he has implemented are causing real hardship, especially because of his decision to target cuts on maintenance grants at the same time as increasing fees.

The evidence of a significant increase in student hardship in the past year is overwhelming. The scale is such that the next step will be a fall-off in third level attendance by the most economically marginalised groups.

As we have heard, during the past two months the situation with regard to late payment of grants for those who qualify has become a full crisis. Many thousands of students have not received their reduced payment because of administrative chaos and problems under the direct control of the Minister. The Student Universal Support Ireland, SUSI, system is failing students and the Government should accept and rectify this. Despite promises given last week by the Tánaiste about students having full access to all they needed in college, we heard last night from students on "The Frontline" that this is not the case. Since this problem emerged students and families from all parts of the country have been pressing for urgent action. However, upon examination not one of the lengthy list of press releases and speeches made by the Minister during this time addresses this crisis.

Deputy Charlie McConalogue persisted with parliamentary questions to get to the bottom of this issue and only subsequently did the full truth come out. At least the relevant Oireachtas committee met staff from SUSI today. It is obvious to all - it has been for some time - that 65 staff is not enough to deal with more than 66,000 applications. This needs urgent attention. The two fee increases implemented under this Government are part of a larger series. Currently, it is the Minister's intention to increase student fees by far more than any of his predecessors. In opposition, the Labour Party promised to cut these fees and during the election it promised never to increase them. Now it is implementing an unprecedented series of five increases. What makes this a great deal worse is that cutting funding for access to third level is accompanied by targeted cuts at schemes to help disadvantaged students in first and second level. The Minister has delivered many speeches in which he has said that he will rescue an under-performing system.

Sometimes the Minister's criticisms of the system are balanced and reasonable but more often they have involved putting the worst possible spin on statistics. Last week he found himself in something of a quandary because he had to release a report showing that school completion had increased significantly to 90% under his predecessors, a vindication of policies during the past decade. At the same time the greatest improvements were seen in the most disadvantaged schools, the under-performance of boys was being addressed and there was greater equality between different types of schools. The Minister launched this report in as low-key a way as he could and he did so without acknowledging the work of teachers, parents, communities and public servants in delivering a fairer, more successful system. He also failed to acknowledge that the DEIS programme is being targeted for cuts precisely when it is delivering major progress.

Although Government speakers will obviously ignore it in their speeches, the facts show that cuts to disadvantaged schemes were first proposed by the Minister in his review of spending dated 9 September 2011. The cuts which have been implemented since were not imposed reluctantly; they were proposed by the Department as merely removing anomalies and damaging no one. The cut of 700 career guidance posts was also suggested by the Department last year. In the internal documentation the cut was referred to as the "termination" of the dedicated guidance service. When the backlash occurred, the Taoiseach and many Ministers claimed that nothing was being terminated and that schools were simply getting the flexibility they had asked for, an appalling and disgraceful statement to make and the Minister is continuing in this vein. I have met career guidance teachers and I invite anyone to meet them in schools throughout the country. There is much talk about cyberbullying, mental health and suicide among young people. This was a disgraceful act. It cut at the heart of the infrastructure in our second level schools, which is in place to deal with vulnerable young people. Teachers and principals will explain that the volume of the issues with which they are dealing is growing. It was a mistake and it should be reversed.

It was a shame that the Labour Party made that particular cut. It refers to fairness and equality but it continues to work against these principles in its education policy. I believe in a greater diversity of patronage at primary level but it is difficult not to compare the time the Government has spent on that issue to the time spent on real equality issues, including those to which I have referred. We will be setting out a constructive alternative approach to the budget to be announced next month. We acknowledge the many areas where tough decisions must be implemented but we do not accept that there is no alternative to every decision taken by every Minister.

Education deserves to receive the priority it was promised before the election and in the programme for Government. The Labour Party and Fine Gael will be held to account by the people for their broken promises, but they will also be held to account if the people see their decisions doing immense damage but do nothing to reverse them. I call on the Minister to reverse the career guidance decision. We saw what occurred in Wexford and in certain schools. Following these events the Department and the Minister made a belated intervention to return hours to the schools involved but this is a generic system-wide issue and it should be applied across the board. We should not simply wait for incidents to happen, especially with regard to young people in certain schools, and then move to reverse them. The Minister should acknowledge that this happened. We know it happened and I have the details on file of the schools concerned in respect of which, because of the cuts and the absence of guidance, the Minister subsequently intervened. We must be serious. There is no point in Oireachtas committees meeting with various groups working in the area of mental health when we neglect the one relevant structure in place, a dedicated, ring-fenced service which was doing a good deal of work in terms of helping young people at a vulnerable stage in their lives. The Minister decided to unilaterally take it out and leave it up to the schools. A more honest approach would have involved doing it differently or not doing it at all.

8:00 pm

Photo of Tom HayesTom Hayes (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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I call Deputy Robert Troy.

Photo of Robert TroyRobert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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I propose to share time with Deputy Cowen. He wishes to speak for seven minutes and I will take eight minutes.

Photo of Tom HayesTom Hayes (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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Is that agreed? Agreed.

Photo of Robert TroyRobert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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I thank my colleague, Deputy McConalogue, for brining forward this Private Members' motion. It is a critical issue and it is timely to debate it. Tonight, tens of thousands of students are waiting to see whether they are eligible for support and funding to attend third level education. Those lucky enough to know they are eligible must wait until 2013 before they get their payments. Tonight, tens of thousands of students are looking at this debate and feel totally betrayed by the Minister. Despite the infamous pledge he made at the gates of Trinity College, the Minister plans to continue to increase fees. I call on the Minister to be man enough to stand up and use this debate as an opportunity to apologise to the third level students of Ireland for his blatant use of a cynical electioneering plot three weeks out from the general election in February 2011. At the least the Minister owes the students of Ireland an apology for blatant lies because the students of Ireland turned out to vote for the Labour Party in the majority.

Last night I attended a meeting held by the students' union in Athlone Institute of Technology. It is no laughing matter. They acknowledged that they voted for the Minister in the majority. They also came out and canvassed for the Labour Party. When people were signing up to the supplementary register students were opening advocating voting for the Labour Party because they believed it was the party that would protect student supports. They took the view that not only would the Labour Party not increase student registration fees but it would reverse the previous increase. This was the party they then wished to see in government. However, there were not too many Labour Party people in support of the students at the meeting last night.

There are serious difficulties facing funding at third level. I understand in 2011 registration fees contributed approximately €100 million. The Higher Education Authority predicts that we will need an additional €500 million to ensure we maintain a first class education system. I will not be disingenuous in the way the Minister acted prior to the last election. I acknowledge that the Minister has a difficult job. However, when we refer to a knowledge economy we must be mindful that we must continue and maintain the level of investment in our education sector.

One of the strong points of the Irish economy is that we have the highest per capita graduate population, that is, people coming out of universities.

Over 32% of the population have graduated with a third level qualification.

I watched "The Frontline" programme last night and heard a party colleague of the Minister refer to him as being one of the most reforming Ministers for Education of all time. I wonder how reforming he is when his answer to the funding difficulties at third level is to increase fees year after year. He predicted they would increase right up to 2015. Entry to third level education should not depend on one's socioeconomic group, rather it should be based on an student's ability, willingness and eagerness to attain a third level education. We must look at how we can further cut costs and rationalise services, but is it not cynical given that in the four years prior to becoming Minister Deputy Ruairí stated year after year that he had an alternative to increasing student fees? I remind him that he is now 20 months in office. If he has an alternative, will he bring it forward and maintain the promise he made prior to the last general election?

One of the other big issues raised at the meeting last night was that of SUSI. What is the Government's opinion? When its establishment was being announced in June, the Minister welcomed it as a great initiative. Today, during Leaders' Questions, the Taoiseach said it was brilliant, that it had reduced the number of authorities dealing with applications from 66 to one. Last night a Government Deputy mentioned that there should be a grants officer on every campus in every county. Of course, at last night's meeting it was indicated that it was the previous Government's fault because SUSI was its idea. Would the Minister at least acknowledge that it was his responsibility? He launched it in June and the shambles that it is today is his responsibility.

Last night I listened to horrific stories. I do not wish to blame the staff of SUSI because it is clear the office is not adequately staff. It is extremely disappointing to hear from my colleague that in the debacle the Minister has yet to meet the staff responsible for administering the scheme. That is worrying as thousands of students wait to receive their grants. Only last week a student contacted my constituency office to tell me he was withdrawing from college because he did not have access to college facilities. He wished to withdraw from college because he did not have the capacity to pay his rent. The Taoiseach stated today that the Minister had written to the heads of the universities and third level colleges to ask them to ensure students would retain access to facilities. As of last night, at Athlone Institute of Technology that was not the case. I ask the Minister to bring up that matter again.

Last night I spoke to students encountering difficulties in applying for the back-to-education allowance because they did not have proof of registration for the local social welfare office. Perhaps the Minister might speak to his Cabinet colleague about this. Also last night there was the unbelievable story of Fr. Shay Casey, the welfare officer at Athlone Institute of Technology, who stated there was no money left in the hardship fund-----

8:10 pm

Photo of Tom HayesTom Hayes (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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It is inappropriate to name names in the House.

Photo of Robert TroyRobert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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-----and that he knew of students whose only source of food on a weekly basis was a bag of pasta and a jar of tomato ketchup as they awaited their grants to come through.

I hope the Minister will take on board the concerns raised on this side of the House and, no doubt, by his own backbenchers. This is an issue that should not be allowed to fester any longer. I hope he Minister will be able to give a clear and unambiguous commitment that this matter will be resolved without further delay.

Photo of Barry CowenBarry Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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This is an extremely important issue. As stated, it is causing untoward problems and difficulties, as well as stress and anxiety for students and their families. This should not be the case. Students should not face such a brutal distraction from their studies. They should not fear incurring the wrath of their colleges, as has been explained, rather they should be enjoying the facilities and services on offer within them.

The body set up to deal with the new applications must be somewhat culpable, but not to the same extent as the Minister with responsibility in this area. My colleagues and I have received numerous representations from student constituents and our pleas to elicit answers, explanations and solutions are falling on deaf ears, whether by means of correspondence with SUSI or the Minister's office.

As a party, no more than anyone else, we are in the process of preparing an alternative budget to that which the Government will produce. We acknowledge the gap between income and expenditure must continue to be closed. In recent times we have passed budgets which closed that gap by the tune of €20 billion; in one budget €8.5 billion was taken out in one swoop. The decisions on necessary adjustments left the Minister and his colleagues under no illusion about the task that lay ahead of them should they enter into government. When we propose our alternative budget, we will seek to have adjustments made which are fair and progressive and protect areas such as education, enterprise, disability and mental health.

Prior to the last general election, the Minister and his colleagues gave the public the distinct impression that there was an easier, softer way. The Minister also gave the impression that education would be prioritised, protected and cushioned against cuts, but independent observers made the comment after the announcement of the budget that it was neither fair nor progressive and that education had definitely not been prioritised, given the cuts for rural schools? The cuts affected two, three and four teacher schools, but they also affected DEIS schools. The numbers of special needs assistance hours and career guidance counsellors were cut. Foreign language initiatives in primary schools were also cut. In addition, the Minister reneged on the infamous Trinity College pledge on fees and registration charges.

It is not too late to act in a damage limitation exercise. The Minister should now do what he should have done in the first place in June when he announced SUSI, that is, adequately staff the office, adequately train the staff in it and adequately fund the office to do the job it was set up to do. If he does this, he will be correcting what has been a colossal cock-up and allow students to concentrate on student life, rather than waiting for Santa Claus to deliver a grant come Christmas.

It is rumoured in great circles around here that the Minister and the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, Deputy Phil Hogan, aspire to be a Commissioner in Brussels. If that is the case - it may not be - the pair of them are going about it in the right way. The unfortunate part is, however, that it is having an effect on students and home owners, while the most unfortunate part is that the pair of them cannot be appointed. I commend the motion to the House.

Photo of Ruairi QuinnRuairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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I move amendment No. 2:

To delete all words after "Dáil Éireann" and substitute the following:"notes that:

— the annual cost of attending college increased by over 950% during Fianna Fáil’s time in office, from €190 in 1996-97 to €2,000 in 2011-12, effectively bringing to an end the era of free third level education in Ireland;

— sixty-six bodies around the country were previously tasked with the awarding of student grants – a system which involved significant duplication of functions and under which students in many parts of the country faced very significant delays in receiving student grants; and

— arising from its disastrous economic mismanagement of the public finances, the previous Government oversaw cuts to the staffing of primary schools, the dismantling of schemes to support those from Traveller backgrounds, reductions to the additional teaching posts for children who require support to learn English and the introduction of a cap on the number of special needs assistants, SNAs, who could be employed in schools;

further notes that:

— the Government continues to exempt more than 40% of students from any requirement to pay the student contribution, as well as providing tens of thousands of students with maintenance grants to assist with the costs of third level education; and

— the Government has protected the overall number of SNAs and resource seachers in schools, is rolling out high-speed broadband to every post-primary school in Ireland and has created programmes such as Springboard and the Labour Market Education and Training Fund that will provide more quality education places for those who are looking for work or seeking to upskill;

recognises that:

— there have been some delays with the awarding of grants by the newly established Student Universal Support Ireland, SUSI, service;

— the City of Dublin Vocational Education Committee has arranged for the employment of additional staff by SUSI to bring such delays to an end and to ensure that all successful applicants receive grant payments by the end of December 2012;

— the Higher Education Authority, at the request of the Minister for Education and Skills, has written to all third level institutions asking them to avoid taking any action targeted at students who are awaiting the processing of student grant applications; and

— the establishment of SUSI in place of 66 separate grant awarding bodies will, in time, ensure that students continue to receive payments directly to their bank accounts and that student grants are administered in the most efficient way possible; and welcomes the significant reform agenda which has been undertaken by the Minister, including a new national literacy and numeracy strategy, the establishment of the Forum on Patronage and Pluralism in the Primary Sector, the overhaul of the existing junior cycle, a new examination of the points system and transitions between second and third levels, the announcement of a five year building programme, the reform of the VEC sector and the creation of a new national further education and training agency and the creation of a new landscape document for the higher education sector."
I understand I am sharing time with Deputy Joanna Tuffy.

I thank the Fianna Fáil Party for tabling the motion for discussion. It is both useful and timely.

I want to address the issues which have arisen in relation to student grants in recent weeks.

As all Deputies are aware, I followed through on the work started by my predecessor when I was appointed Minister for Education and Skills, merging the 66 grant-awarding bodies into one new body known as SUSI. I still believe that policy decision was correct and nobody, to my knowledge, has challenged the nature of that policy decision. I believe the establishment of a single grant-awarding body will serve our students better in the long run. However, it is clear that we have had problems with the first year of the new system. All of us - not just Opposition Deputies - have been approached by students who are experiencing real difficulties because of delays in processing their grant applications. Sadly, this has been a repeat of the difficulties of previous years, and we all thought the new system would work better than it has done.

8:20 pm

Photo of Charlie McConalogueCharlie McConalogue (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
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It has never been as bad as this before.

Photo of Ruairi QuinnRuairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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I have already made it clear to the Higher Education Authority that it is not acceptable for students to be placed at any disadvantage because of any delays. In response to Deputy Troy's contribution, I must point out that it is not my role to communicate directly with individual colleges in this regard. The intermediary is the Higher Education Authority, to which I have written on a number of occasions asking it to make sure that the colleges under its authority do not penalise students because their grants have not come through yet. The HEA has written to all higher education institutions to convey this message on two occasions. Let me state clearly that it is not acceptable for colleges to prevent students from accessing libraries, e-mail accounts, lecture notes or any other resource because their grants have not yet been processed.

Even after such issues are resolved, I am conscious that some students are still facing significant financial difficulties because of these delays. Let me put it clearly on the record of the House that I apologise formally to those students and their parents for the distress these delays are causing. Ultimately, as the Minister for Education and Skills, I accept responsibility.

I am aware that representatives of SUSI attended a meeting of the Joint Committee on Education and Social Protection this morning. In fact, I happened to listen in to most of the debate, and no doubt other Deputies will refer to that discussion. I wish to clarify one particular point: all of the requests related to staffing and other resources that the Department has received from SUSI to date have been granted. SUSI has not been denied any request for resources or staffing. I further assure the House that the Department remains open to any further request from SUSI for additional support. SUSI is now staffed to the level it has requested and I expect it to get on with the job it has been asked to do and to ensure that all students receive their grants as soon as possible. There will be plenty of time to learn lessons from the problems and delays that occurred this year and to ensure these never arise again. For now, however, I want all eligible students to be paid their grants and to get on with their third level education without the worry and distraction of wondering when they will be paid.

When the Fianna Fáil Minister for Education and Skills brought in the proposal to merge the 66 different organisations that were responsible for administering and allocating student grants, it seemed to me - and still seems - a no-brainer. I am hearing nothing from the movers of this motion to indicate that they want to go back to the past. That is a fair interpretation of the position articulated-----

Photo of Robert TroyRobert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister should have been at last night's meeting and heard what his own backbenchers had to say.

Photo of Ruairi QuinnRuairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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Let me just describe the process of how we arrived at SUSI. We invited expressions of interest from all of the grant-awarding public sector agencies in taking the lead role and becoming the sole grant-awarding agency. The principle of having one agency to do this work was accepted by everybody, both in opposition and in government. Subsequent to the change of government on 11 March 2011, I advanced what had happened up to that point, but the minute I advanced it, I accepted total responsibility as Minister. The fact that I agree with the policy initiative of the previous Minister is a bonus, but I am now responsible for it. We invited expressions of interest, through the Department of Education and Skills, from the grant-awarding organisations. It was not an open tendering system because they were already in the space. A number of different groups presented and were interviewed. Their business cases were evaluated by a specialist group of former and current senior public servants and the responsibility was awarded to the City of Dublin Vocational Education Committee, CDVEC. The CDVEC constructed the model that is now known as SUSI. Any request that SUSI made to my Department for resources and staff was acceded to and was not questioned or second-guessed. SUSI, in turn, outsourced part of its work.

Many Deputies who are in the House now, including Deputy Jonathan O'Brien, attended this morning's committee meeting and will be aware of most of this information. However, the rest of the House may not necessarily be aware of the details. I am sorry if I am repeating what many Deputies already know but I am anxious to ensure this information is on the record of the House.

I regret - as does the chief executive of the CDVEC, according to her own testimony - that the system that was put in place has not worked as well as we had hoped it would. I put my hands up on this: it has not worked as well as expected. It is probably working a little better than the previous system, but that is no consolation to anybody. What we set out to do is not working as well as we hoped it would. I do not want to get involved in the blame game, although I am responsible; Deputies can have a go at me as much as they like and I will accept it. I am the person to blame at the end of the day, not the people who are trying to administer the grants. What we are saying to SUSI is this: what can you do to sort out the difficulties that have arisen, both foreseen and unforeseen? What we did not foresee with the online system was that many students would not provide the additional information required. The Deputies will know from the records that a number of-----

Photo of Charlie McConalogueCharlie McConalogue (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
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A comment like that proves that the Minister has not assessed the situation properly.

Photo of Ruairi QuinnRuairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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The Deputies have raised a legitimate issue in a responsible way and I am responding in that manner. Most of us in the House this evening have already received our education. We are talking about students who are struggling now, in very difficult times, when trying to get alternative finance by way of a loan is extremely difficult. I am acutely conscious of that. What we want to do between now and Christmas is to provide confirmation to approximately 33,000 students that they will receive the grant to which they are entitled. I remind the House that 42% of students at undergraduate level receive a grant of some kind, either a complete grant comprising both maintenance and fees, or a partial grant. That is what I am setting out to do. It is not for the Department of Education and Skills to run the system, but the Department - including the Minister - is completely responsible and accountable to this House for the effectiveness of the system. It is not working the way it should at present. I acknowledge that and everyone in this House acknowledges it.

Photo of Jonathan O'BrienJonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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Everyone acknowledges it except SUSI.

Photo of Ruairi QuinnRuairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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My own party colleagues and the Fine Gael Deputies acknowledge that it is not working the way we had hoped. If there are mistakes in the system, I assure Deputy O'Brien that it is easy for me to say I did not make them, but I am responsible.

Photo of Jonathan O'BrienJonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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I am simply saying that SUSI has not accepted that the system is not working.

Photo of Ruairi QuinnRuairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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Clearly it is not working as well as we had hoped and we have to learn from that. There is nothing wrong with saying that it has not worked as well as we had hoped and we have to learn lessons from that.

Photo of Jonathan O'BrienJonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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I agree.

Photo of Ruairi QuinnRuairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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My approach to this is twofold. First, let us fix the problem and get the confirmation and grants out to all eligible applicants so that they can draw down the money. Second, let us go back, having done that, and examine what went wrong. I do not want to have an inquiry in the middle of trying to solve the problem.

8:30 pm

Photo of Charlie McConalogueCharlie McConalogue (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
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Is the Minister satisfied that the 30,000 applicants will be processed by Christmas?

Photo of Ruairi QuinnRuairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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I would love to say that I am satisfied but I cannot do so because I do not know. I have spoken with the chief executive of SUSI, Jacinta Stewart, and I heard all the questions that members of the committee put to her. She was accompanied by just two officials to assist her in responding to questions. My priority is to ensure that every student who is entitled to a grant and has applied through the new system receives a payment before Christmas. I am not going to divert the energy of the organisation into a post-mortem or inquiry when it is in the middle of delivering acknowledgements. A large number of students have not yet responded, however, and the principal officer from the City of Dublin VEC is wondering whether an e-mail should be sent to these students to find out whether they intend to proceed with their applications.

My priority is to fix the system as best we can and to introduce certainty as quickly as we can. The target is 33,000 between now and Christmas. I hope we can reach it but I cannot say with certainty that we will do so. I will be having a conversation with SUSI and, on foot of this Legislature stating publicly and democratically that we have a problem, I will ask officials whether they need additional resources. If they need resources I will ensure they are made available.

Photo of Charlie McConalogueCharlie McConalogue (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister should have been asking these questions a long time ago.

Photo of Ruairi QuinnRuairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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There was no reason for me to intervene.

Photo of Charlie McConalogueCharlie McConalogue (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
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There was.

Photo of Tom HayesTom Hayes (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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I do not want Members to interact across the floor. This is a very serious issue and I ask the Minister to address it.

Photo of Ruairi QuinnRuairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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Some day Deputy McConalogue will be standing over here as a Minister, and I wish him well in that regard. When he occupies this position, he will find that he cannot have overall responsibility for his Department at the same time as supervising its day-to-day operations. He will need to delegate authority and management. One responds to organisations when they request additional resources to deal with a problem. Did my Department or I receive an indication that-----

Photo of Charlie McConalogueCharlie McConalogue (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
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If he had listened to students he could have responded to the issue before it became a crisis.

Photo of Tom HayesTom Hayes (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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I ask the Minister to speak through the Chair rather than provoke Deputies.

Photo of Ruairi QuinnRuairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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I accept that the Chair, acting as the referee, cannot interfere with the game. Perhaps it is the democrat in me but I would sooner have a dialogue than allow people to make speeches to each other. I listened carefully to what Deputy McConalogue had to say on behalf of Fianna Fáil. I also listened to Deputy Martin, who left a number of hostages to fortune given his record in this area. However, citing his record will not accelerate a single application or make it easier for the student who is, as Deputy Troy pointed out, living on pasta and tomato sauce. That is a reality for some students.

Deputy McConalogue pointed out that six weeks remain until Christmas. That is the timeframe in which we are trying to deal with the 33,000 applications in the system. Every student who has a problem should use the online facility to ensure he or she has communicated the information requested by SUSI. The students who have decided against pursuing their grant applications because they know they do not qualify would facilitate other students if they informed SUSI they are terminating their applications. At least 8,000 students - I put a question around that figure because I am not entirely sure - are not advancing their applications, as has been the case in the past, because they cannot provide the information requested. If these students indicated online they are no longer looking for a grant it would be like moving a line of cars out of a traffic jam to allow others to proceed. I appeal to Deputies and those following the debate in the Visitors Gallery to ask those who are not actively pursuing applications, because they know in their hearts they will not qualify, to communicate that to SUSI in order to reduce the numbers which have to be processed. I would prefer SUSI staff to be processing live applications from people who really want a grant than to be working on an application from somebody who knows he or she does not qualify.

I deeply regret this has happened. We were given to understand that the information technology had been processed and the systems were in place. There was optimism that the new system would work but it has not worked as well as we wanted. This is its first year of operation. The students come first. My priority is to process the applications as quickly as possible so that we provide certainty to the vast majority of applicants this side of Christmas. I hope the figure is 33,000 but I cannot be certain of that. When it is all over let us learn the lessons from what did not work so that we can remove the obstacles and barriers and ensure the system works much better next year.

Photo of Joanna TuffyJoanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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I will speak briefly about the meeting between the Joint Committee on Education and Social Protection and SUSI officials which was attended by Deputies McConalogue and O'Brien, among others. We arranged the meeting because our constituents have raised concerns about the system with individual Deputies and Senators. Unlike in previous years, we were able to bring in a single grant authority so that we could ask questions and make suggestions. While the answers may not always have brought satisfaction, it was an informative meeting. The Oireachtas is now able to hold the new single unit directly accountable and it also has a direct link to the Minister. While I am generally in favour of local government, we did not have the same relationship with the local authorities, some of which were more reticent at providing information than others.

The system has encountered a number of hiccups and problems. The chief executive officer of SUSI, Jacinta Stewart, admitted that mistakes were made and agreed that the scale of the task had been underestimated. However, the situation is no worse than in previous years. I dealt with many constituents who did not get their grants on time. Sometimes students were still waiting for their grants as they prepared for their exams in May. There were long delays in the past and the current figures are similar. The problem is that SUSI was established to streamline the system and to provide greater efficiency. There is much room for improvement, therefore. When grants were provided by 66 different bodies, they dealt with their own applications and we as representatives raised problems with the local authorities and VECs in our constituencies. The problems were dispersed, whereas now that they are concentrated in one authority they have become more visible. People may disagree with me when I say the problem is no worse than before but that is my impression.

Photo of Ruairi QuinnRuairi Quinn (Dublin South East, Labour)
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The objective was to make it better, however.

Photo of Joanna TuffyJoanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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I accept that. Ms Stewart confirmed that she has the staff she requested.

It is quite clear the scale of the task was underestimated and enough staff were not trained from the outset. Many of the problems were identified by SUSI officials today as being historic problems. For example, some 15,000 applicants to SUSI appear not to be proceeding with their applications. They were probably never even eligible for a grant in the first place. Apparently, a similar number of ineligible applications were made in previous years. There is a historic problem of more people applying for grants than are eligible for them. This contributes to a significant backlog in the system. These applications remain on the system as grants awaiting processing, which is an issue. SUSI needs a system - this was suggested by Oireachtas Members at the meeting - that will allow it deal with these 15,000 applications so they can be removed from the application list and we have a better picture of the number of outstanding applications.

There may be particular reasons for there being so many applicants this year. Some 56,000 students completed their leaving certificate this year, so at most there are 80,000 first year applicants for grants. We could also take into account the postgraduate students who might have to apply through SUSI, but the number remains around approximately 80,000. If only half of these are eligible for grants, which would be more than in previous years, we are talking about 40,000 valid applications. SUSI has suggested it expects to award approximately 40,000 grants. Therefore, approximately from 20,000 to 50,000 students are not eligible for grants.

One of the issues for SUSI is that students can go online and register without supplying any documentation. This was not the situation in the past in the case of local authorities and VECs. While it is not something new, some students try and buy time by applying for a grant, but they do not have the money put together for the registration fee. This situation is exacerbated in the current economic climate. People might not qualify for the grant, but are nearly in the range, and they might put in an application but be unable to pursue it because they are just above the threshold. This could be another factor in the number of applications.

A number of issues were raised apart from this. The problems with the telephone service were raised with SUSI officials. This issue has also been raised with us as public representatives. SUSI hopes to improve the situation next year. Deputies and Senators at the meeting made a number of good suggestions and I hope not only SUSI, but the Minister too, will take these on board. A helpline for student union representatives was suggested. A helpline and an e-mail facility exist to allow Deputies and Senators make contact with SUSI and there are obviously e-mail and helpline facilities for applicants. A line of communication should be established between SUSI and student union representatives in the various colleges also.

A suggestion was made with regard to using the experience and knowledge of people on the ground in places like Donegal who could go into the colleges and help students with difficulties with their applications. They could help with communication between SUSI and the students so that students understand fully what they need to do to complete their application.

I already mentioned the suggestion to ensure the 15,000 applications that are not proceeding are removed from the system and processed. SUSI raised the issue of the need for sharing of information in this regard. Information should be shared between the Revenue Commissioners and SUSI or the Department of Social Protection or the colleges in order to help speed up the processing of applications.

Many people raised the issue of the problem students face with regard to access to college facilities. Something must be done in this regard. Colleges must treat all students equally. I agree people should not be permitted to abuse the system and delay the paying of fees they must inevitably pay and still use the system if they have not paid up. However, there must be some system applied that will allow genuine grant applicants use the facilities. SUSI needs to communicate with colleges on that. I understand the HEA has written to the colleges, but the Minister must do something to make the colleges play ball on this.

Outsourcing some of the processing of applications should be considered. Has it worked where tried? There is significant expertise among those who have dealt with the grant system over the years and that knowledge should be tapped. These people are aware of the problems of getting some applicants to complete their documentation properly. We know from our experience as Deputies with regard to applications for social welfare that some people are not good at filling out forms, often with reason. Members might suggest that third level students should be better at this, but that might be a prejudice towards people who are disadvantaged in some way.

Many good ideas came forward at our meeting and the Minister should read the transcript and take these on board. The reason we had the meeting was because constituents contacted their Deputies. We are Teachtaí Dála who are elected to represent the concerns of our constituents, although people sometimes downplay this. We cannot legislate and deal with issues from an ivory tower. What we do here is very much linked up with our work in our constituencies. We talk to our constituents about how things work out in practice. If someone highlights a problem he or she is experiencing with SUSI, it is very important we go back to that person and ask whether he or she wants us to make inquiries on his or her behalf. That is not clientelism, rather it is holding SUSI to account on behalf of a constituent. That is what we did at our committee today and is what we are doing now here.

8:40 pm

Photo of Michael KittMichael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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I call Deputy Jonathan O'Brien, who is sharing time with Deputy Pearse Doherty

Photo of Jonathan O'BrienJonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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Like previous Deputies, today's engagement at the Joint Committee on Education and Social Protection was an important step towards trying to resolve this issue. It is unfortunate it had to come to this, but, nevertheless, the fact we had SUSI officials before the committee today went some way towards explaining some of the issues relating to the backlog.

I cannot speak on behalf of any other Deputy or Senator who attended the committee meeting, but I found the engagement with the SUSI CEO and the other two officials unsatisfactory. I felt many of the questions posed went unanswered. For example, it took almost two hours to get the information from the CEO that all of the resources SUSI asked for from the Minister were put in place. There was a complete lack of understanding on the part of the SUSI officials of the hardship facing tens of thousands of students. For example, during the debate one of the SUSI officials, Mr. Tom Prizeman, stated he could guarantee no documentation was being lost. He stated that SUSI had only received one official complaint of a lost document among all the applicants who had forwarded documentation. This is incredible. We have received many e-mails from students who sent in documentation and who were asked to resend their documentation. Some of the e-mails state the students were told the documentation had been misplaced. Therefore, I do not accept the comment that documentation has not been lost.

Most of the problem was caused by the decision to outsource to a company in Cork responsibility for scanning the documents into electronic format and sending them on to SUSI. There is no doubt that documentation has gone missing. It was suggested at today's committee meeting that Dublin VEC underestimated the size of the task it was undertaking. I think the Minister is responsible for this area. Obviously, awarding criteria were used when a decision was made on the operation of SUSI. Perhaps the initial criteria were flawed, or else they are not being met by Dublin VEC. Nobody can dispute the contention that this process has ended in disaster. Students are facing real hardship.

Although I welcome the apology that the Minister extended to students tonight, we need more than an apology now. The Minister has said he will raise the issue of SUSI's staffing resources when he meets the CEO tomorrow. Like other Deputies, I do not believe the number of staff currently dealing with this issue within SUSI will be enough to get through all the applications by December, as the Minister hopes. On the basis of the figures we were given today for the number of packs SUSI can process and the number of SUSI staff dealing with this matter, it is just not credible to suggest it is possible. When the Minister meets those officials tomorrow, he should ask them to go through how SUSI proposes to get through 30,000 applications between now and the end of December.

The Minister mentioned that he has twice instructed the Higher Education Authority to ensure that colleges do not place students at a disadvantage as a result of these problems. He said that "the HEA has written to all higher education institutions to convey this message on two occasions". Perhaps the letters written by the HEA were not stiff enough, or else they are being ignored by the colleges. The reality is that students in those colleges are being denied access to vital resources and facilities. I received an e-mail from a student who could not access the laboratory and as a result was unable to submit an assignment as part of a course. We have heard about students who have received letters from their colleges warning them that a late penalty charge will be imposed on them if they do not pay the registration charge by a certain date, or if the colleges do not receive confirmation from SUSI that the students in question are eligible for the registration. This is the stuff our students are facing.

I would like to read extracts from two e-mails I received from students. It is important for the voices of students to be heard during tonight's debate. The first e-mail is from a mature student:

My college on the 17th of October refused me access to vital resources which I needed for my course. This left me unable to access any lab assignments and notes that I needed for projects which were due to be handed up. I struggled on hoping to hear that SUSI had awarded me tuition fees, but then I got a letter asking for further documentation. Upon receiving this letter and speaking to SUSI on the phone, I knew that I would be at least another month if not longer waiting to hear back from their office. As I had already been blocked access from my college to vital facilities and resources, there was no other option for me but to leave my course. I was hoping to start a degree in my chosen discipline. I was hoping to start a new chapter in my life, hoping to better myself in these tough economic times for the sake of my two children - not only for their future but also for my own. This dream has now been dashed due to the inadequate system of SUSI.
That is just one example of a student who has been forced to leave her course because she was denied access to facilities on her campus. We have been told tonight that the HEA wrote to every third level institution twice to instruct them to ensure that would not happen, but it is happening. The Minister needs to take that up with the HEA tomorrow.

The other e-mail from which I would like to read is an important one. We heard tonight about people who have been awarded grants but are facing difficulties because they are being given the wrong rates. There has been confusion about the adjacent and non-adjacent rates. A resident of Cork who is doing a nursing course e-mailed me to tell me of being awarded an adjacent grant despite studying in Dundalk. As a result, the person in question cannot pay rent or put food on the table. The e-mail states:

I received a letter approving me of my maintenance grant, and then I read on. I was to get the adjacent rate and I am far from adjacent. I live 100 km from the college. I phoned SUSI and was told by a nice lady not to worry, that there had obviously been a mistake and do not appeal the decision, that we will review it.
This particular student was told they would hear back within two or three days. Five days later, after receiving no phone call back, the student rang SUSI again, only to be told "sorry, we gave you the wrong information, you actually have to appeal the decision". The person was initially told not to appeal because it would be sorted out as part of the review. When they rang back five days later, they were told to appeal. The principal officer of SUSI told today's committee meeting that there is no need to appeal in cases in which adjacent and non-adjacent grants have been allocated wrongly because a review process is in place. It is obvious that the officials who are working on the helpline do not know that, however. One member of the support staff said not to appeal, but when the person in question rang back, a different member of the support staff said to appeal. I do not think the staff know the procedures with regard to some of the grants that have been awarded.

It is all well and good to say there is a target of getting through all the applications and awarding as many grants as possible to those who are entitled to them. Some students are going to have to come back to appeal decisions. Some 1,100 appeals have been submitted to date in respect of grants which have been awarded. Some 600 of those appeals are still outstanding. No timeframe has been put in place for when those 600 appeals will be finalised. There is a bigger problem here. When the Minister speaks to representatives of SUSI tomorrow, he should go through line-by-line how they propose to get through all of these applications by Christmas. In addition, he should engage with the Higher Education Authority again to instruct colleges and third level institutes not to penalise students because that is happening.

8:50 pm

Photo of Pearse DohertyPearse Doherty (Donegal South West, Sinn Fein)
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Cuirim fáilte roimh an díospóireacht seo. Ní hé seo an chéad uair a dhearna an Dáil plé ar an ábhar seo. Tá a fhios agam go bhfuil an Teachta O'Brien ag plé na ceiste seo le tamall fada. Tá leithscéal á ghabháil ag an Aire chuig scoláirí na hÉireann, ag deireadh na dála, as an mess millteanach atá déanta ag SUSI agus ag an Rialtas ó thaobh na deontaisí seo a fhaigheann mic léinn tríú leibhéal. While I welcome the apology the Minister has extended to students, it has to be said this is not the first time this issue has been debated in this House. Our education spokesman, Deputy O'Brien, has been raising it for many weeks. It has been the subject of a special debate during Topical Issues. Deputy O'Brien insisted last week that the Joint Committee on Education and Social Protection would bring in representatives of SUSI to answer questions and that happened today. Why did it take until mid-November for the penny to drop and the Minister to realise there is something horribly wrong with the processing facility known as SUSI?

Why did it take so long for him to take a hands-on approach or acknowledge and issue an apology to students? The fact the Minister had to be dragged kicking and screaming to that position means it is very difficult to accept the sincerity of his comments.

Other Deputies have referred in the Chamber to the impact this is having on individual students. I want to pick up on a point made by Deputy O'Brien in terms of the mess and chaos this facility is causing. Our offices in Donegal town, Ballybofey and Gweedore have been inundated with people who either have not had their grants processed by SUSI, have had grants refused by SUSI in the wrong or have been awarded the wrong level of grant payment. I point to one example of a person from south Donegal who was awarded the adjacent grant. We telephoned SUSI to explain that the person is going to college in Galway only for the SUSI staff member to ask where is the town in Donegal. The lack of understanding of the fact south Donegal is four hours travel from Galway is simply not good enough.

Everybody makes mistakes but the future education of these young people is dependent on this system working. As we heard earlier from Deputy Adams in regard to the letter he received, this situation is not unique and people drop out of college every year as a result of delays in processing grant applications, which has been verified by students and the USI. Therefore, this is really a life decision, but one that is being taken away from the students themselves.

It would be different if this was just a glitch. For example, we cannot blame the Government if it snows tonight, all of us are snowed in and there is not enough salt on the roads - that is, if something unexpected happens. However, in all the years since I was elected to the Seanad, this has been a complete and utter disaster, including under the Fianna Fáil Administration. Students were waiting until January and February in some cases for their first payment instalment, and access to services within the universities and colleges was being denied. This was supposed to sort it out. There should have been a hands-on approach and an oversight role by the Minister and the Department to ensure this was happening and we should not have had to wait until the middle of November to start taking a hands-on approach.

I want to make one point to the Minister. The students of Ireland whose grant applications have yet to be processed by SUSI are entitled to this grant money under legislation. This is not a handout to these students; it is something to which they are entitled. They have decided to go to college, their income meets the requirement test and they are entitled to it. What the Minister should do is forgo his payment for the next three months and see how he gets on. There is a big difference between what students get and what the Minister for Education and Skills gets paid to do his job to make sure young students who want to be the future leaders of this country are able to get their educational attainment.

In my own county, students have been absolutely hammered. This Government increased the registration fees and one of the last dying kisses from the previous Government, and the then Minister for Education and Skills, Ms Mary Coughlan, was to extend the criteria for the non-adjacent grants. Some 700 Donegal students saw their student grants reduced by some 60% as a result of the previous Government's action. Some of them did drop out, and those who have struggled on are now in this system which is still not working. We and the students of Ireland deserve a better system than the Government has delivered.

I listened with incredulity to the Taoiseach today saying that the institutions should not punish them and it is the students' fault because they have not given the information. The Minister and the Taoiseach need to stand up and say they got it wrong, have made a mess of it, and are going to fix it. Waiting until the end of December or the start of next year is simply not good enough.

9:00 pm

Photo of Luke FlanaganLuke Flanagan (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Independent)
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I wish to share time with Deputy Mattie McGrath.

Photo of Michael KittMichael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Is that agreed? Agreed.

Photo of Luke FlanaganLuke Flanagan (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Independent)
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There are times when we in this country seem to go out of our way to make ourselves look stupid. There was a perception from some people around the world, unfortunately, that Irish people were stupid. I do not believe that but there are times when I think successive Governments go out of their way to prove it correct.

In September 1989 I went to college and - some things never change - I got my grant in the middle of November. By the time November had come, I was sick and tired of college, something I went into with great enthusiasm, and my family were sick and tired of college because I would be coming home every week with the long face on me, looking for money that was not there. The purpose of going to college was pretty much put on the back-burner, namely, the purpose of educating myself.

The best way to educate oneself is in an environment where there is a minimum amount of stress. For 23 years now, the same thing has been going on. I actually failed that year. I found the transition from secondary school to third level quite difficult but this made it even more difficult. The following year, I went to Sligo RTC, now Sligo IT, and - guess what - the grant came in at the end of November. Many of my classmates dropped out, although I did not drop out because I had got used to it from the previous year. Despite the amount of resources put in through the lecturers, who it could be argued are paid too much in the first place, and through building and heating the colleges and all of that investment, the Government cannot get the little bit right it needs to get right, the bit whereby the students have the money when they need it.

I was at a meeting in Athlone last night where Deputy James Bannon suggested we go back to the old system. I do not really care what system is used so long as it works. However, in Ireland we have this habit of claiming things are impossible that are not impossible in other countries. At this stage, I believe the Government has convinced the public it is impossible to run a health service. Even though they are run in other countries such as Germany and Holland and all over the world, we have this lame excuse that is very difficult. How difficult is it? It was not difficult for the Government to get into our bank accounts all the various different payments it pays me and everyone else in this House. We are talking about one payment in this case, yet it cannot get it right.

I heard one of the Deputies suggesting people have a problem filling in forms. There are two sides to this. There is a problem in the way forms are designed. They are designed in a way that suggests the person who designed them never filled in a form in their life. Just get this right. There is no point even telling them how to get it right. It should be obvious. Just get the money out to these people.

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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I am delighted to speak on the motion. I compliment Deputy McConalogue on tabling it, although it should not have been necessary to do so. It is another fine mess the Government has got us into.

I welcome the students in the Visitors Gallery, in particular a student from County Cork, Miss O'Brien. Why can we not learn anything in this country? Why do we change everything that is not broken? It was said there were 66 agencies dealing with this. In south Tipperary the VEC and the county council always dealt with this humanely and with dignity. They knew the people and the parents, and there was always compassion. What did we do? We dreamt up this lovely SUSI. I tell the Minister I do not know who SUSI is, or her sister or her mother, or where she was born or bred. He can tell SUSI to go back to wherever she came from. Send her back to the people who understand this. It is no laughing matter. It is an outrage.

We did the same thing with PPARS in the HSE. It cost millions to bring in this new payment system but what happened? It created a mess. It was the same with the county council tendering sections, which were all relocated to Kerry, so there is no local contact and contractors are upset and have to tender three or four times a year. Big is not wonderful. We centralised the medical cards system to Dublin and that was a fiasco.

I told the Minister to come in to apologise to the House, which he did, but he is not half contrite enough because it is disgraceful to have students in colleges, sometimes without food or any type of resources and denied access to their rightful place. I say to the Minister that this is another fine mess he got us into. The Minister waved a solemn promise to students that there would be no fees. What he wrote was not worth the paper we have out here in the bathroom. This is a mess. The sooner he gets rid of SUSI and brings back Siobhán, which I think is the Gaelic for Susie, and bring back the other Siobháns and the ladies I dealt with in Tipperary and other counties, the better. They dealt with this sensitively and humanely and understood the problems of going to college and the difficulties faced by families.

The Government wants to centralise everything, drive people into penury and put students out of college. I never had the liberty of going to third level college but I did come through the university of life and it was a much better education than the kind of system the Government is putting in place. Government Members should hang their heads in shame.

Debate adjourned.